combatdroid113
Mongoose
are there any rumors for an offical set of ship building rules?
Ship builder
- Thread starter combatdroid113
- Start date
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
There is for the B5 rpg
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
There can't be.
First; the B5 RPG ship builders' guide cannot be used to reproduce the official designs, which are often far better than available to the players. Mongose tend to handwave this away with comments like 'the advantages of mass production'.
Second, there wasn't a design system for ACtA in the first place.
The design process starts with Matt Sprange plucking a bunch of numbers out of the air, proceeds with them being playtested and tweaked, and ends with whatever random changes typographic errors cause.
Conversions from B5W don't really work because of the differences in the systems. Individually, a B5W weapon mount was less likely to score a hit, but rather nastier when it did, and ships tended to carry more guns and be more fragile relative to them. Battles took so long in real time, it was always a shock when I added it up in game time and realised how fast and bloody it had 'actually' been.
A straight conversion results in eggshells armed with sledgehammers- ships so fragile in proportion to their loadout, one brief shooting frenzy and that's the game.
Most of the ships suggested on the boards are made in the same way as the official ones, stats put together by a process of extrapolation and interpolation, liberally laced with wishful thinking and munchkinry.
First; the B5 RPG ship builders' guide cannot be used to reproduce the official designs, which are often far better than available to the players. Mongose tend to handwave this away with comments like 'the advantages of mass production'.
Second, there wasn't a design system for ACtA in the first place.
The design process starts with Matt Sprange plucking a bunch of numbers out of the air, proceeds with them being playtested and tweaked, and ends with whatever random changes typographic errors cause.
Conversions from B5W don't really work because of the differences in the systems. Individually, a B5W weapon mount was less likely to score a hit, but rather nastier when it did, and ships tended to carry more guns and be more fragile relative to them. Battles took so long in real time, it was always a shock when I added it up in game time and realised how fast and bloody it had 'actually' been.
A straight conversion results in eggshells armed with sledgehammers- ships so fragile in proportion to their loadout, one brief shooting frenzy and that's the game.
Most of the ships suggested on the boards are made in the same way as the official ones, stats put together by a process of extrapolation and interpolation, liberally laced with wishful thinking and munchkinry.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Slightly Norse John said:
It's hardly hand waving when the same thing is true in real life.
LBH
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
LBH, Are you telling us that you've been in contact with Vosper Thorneycroft trying to order your own corvette 
lastbesthope
Mongoose
No
LBH
LBH
Slightly Norse John
Mongoose
Just as well, it'd never get painted... :lol:
(I use nothing but counters myself, you know I'm kidding.)
seriously, for civil vessels, market forces probably have more to do with a ship's price and fittings than construction requirements do.
Warships, well, permanent arms economy aside (trust me, it makes sense if you're a Trotskyite), back when there was a Navy large enough to have procedures for anything, warship evolution was essentially a continual process, a feedback curve of construction, trials, redesign, new construction- when the Admiralty ordered a ship, they got whatever was on the drawing board that day, and usually in small enough production runs that they were effectively all prototypes. The RN sent thirty- four capital ships to Jutland- of fourteen separate classes, the largest single production batch being five ships strong.
For Cruisers and above, there is no advantage of mass production. I'd expect this to recur in a time of rapid technical evolution and change, which is exactly what we get in the series.
Smaller ships maybe, but then you hit the sort of block obsolescence that happened at the end of the cold war.
(I use nothing but counters myself, you know I'm kidding.)
seriously, for civil vessels, market forces probably have more to do with a ship's price and fittings than construction requirements do.
Warships, well, permanent arms economy aside (trust me, it makes sense if you're a Trotskyite), back when there was a Navy large enough to have procedures for anything, warship evolution was essentially a continual process, a feedback curve of construction, trials, redesign, new construction- when the Admiralty ordered a ship, they got whatever was on the drawing board that day, and usually in small enough production runs that they were effectively all prototypes. The RN sent thirty- four capital ships to Jutland- of fourteen separate classes, the largest single production batch being five ships strong.
For Cruisers and above, there is no advantage of mass production. I'd expect this to recur in a time of rapid technical evolution and change, which is exactly what we get in the series.
Smaller ships maybe, but then you hit the sort of block obsolescence that happened at the end of the cold war.
on the 'handwaving'...mass production never made anything 'better', it made it cheaper and somewhat easier to repair due to standardised parts. One-offs and prototypes often outperform what becomes 'line production'.
Now the RPG builder book may just not allow you to build as cheaply, in which case they are right, but I thought you just could not build the capability in your personalized vechile which would be wrong.
Ripple
Now the RPG builder book may just not allow you to build as cheaply, in which case they are right, but I thought you just could not build the capability in your personalized vechile which would be wrong.
Ripple
Nightmares about Minbari
Mongoose
Not involved in the RPG (yet?), but just wanted to add the following thought.
If with the shipbuilder you could produce a ship better than the core cannon ships, then the navies in the B5 universe would be using these new ships not the ones we see on the series.
I think it's best to assume that the series ships that are better than the shipbuilder are the results of particular circumstances, perhaps a genius ship designer here, some stolen alien technology there, a chance synergy of parts on a third, that makes the series ships just better than those that can be built through the mechanics of the ship designer.
This making any sense what-so-ever?
If with the shipbuilder you could produce a ship better than the core cannon ships, then the navies in the B5 universe would be using these new ships not the ones we see on the series.
I think it's best to assume that the series ships that are better than the shipbuilder are the results of particular circumstances, perhaps a genius ship designer here, some stolen alien technology there, a chance synergy of parts on a third, that makes the series ships just better than those that can be built through the mechanics of the ship designer.
This making any sense what-so-ever?
Thats true.
Mass production makes stuff cheaper not better.
The B2 is sickenly expensive. But then again they arent really out there by the dozens.....Yet still it is the most capable bomber out there.
Customized cars tend to be alot better than massproduced stuff. Costcuts mean that on massproduced stuff, sometimes you pick simply a tad cheaper choice, which results in huge savings due to total savins because there will be dozens of production runs.
Massproduction naver yields the best results as there will be price versus effectiveness considerations. Onetime stuff normally can have more of an all out attitude. So if it costs another 10%, its not like you ever have to pay those 10% ever again.
Mass production makes stuff cheaper not better.
The B2 is sickenly expensive. But then again they arent really out there by the dozens.....Yet still it is the most capable bomber out there.
Customized cars tend to be alot better than massproduced stuff. Costcuts mean that on massproduced stuff, sometimes you pick simply a tad cheaper choice, which results in huge savings due to total savins because there will be dozens of production runs.
Massproduction naver yields the best results as there will be price versus effectiveness considerations. Onetime stuff normally can have more of an all out attitude. So if it costs another 10%, its not like you ever have to pay those 10% ever again.
Commador Q
Mongoose
Nightmares about Minbari said:
that's not nesesarilly true. When maintaining an interstellar military it's probably better to have a large number of good ships than a small number of excelent ships. After all, you never know when a task force is going to be ambushed in hyperspace, or get stuck in a temprtoal anomaly, never to be seen again. And when that hapens it's better if you can replace the ships quickely, rather than having to order another custam job.
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Nightmares about Minbari said:
A simple solution is that the government restrict access to military-grade parts, thus preventing the players from building anthign as good as they have.
combatdroid113
Mongoose
wow a generic system i realsie would be hard to make as the system is sort of design made. But surely there can be one made up? i mean there are some overall factors that change initial characteristics like fleet ones for instance - ie initative and fleet special rules.
Goldritter
Mongoose
If you want ideas for a generic system look at Silhouette from Dream Pod 9.
It´s a cool system, espacially if you like to design Vehicles.
They call it "Effect base design" or similar.
It´s a cool system, espacially if you like to design Vehicles.
They call it "Effect base design" or similar.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Better yet: Full Thrust. One of the best sapace combat games ever and with a superb ship design system
Goldritter
Mongoose
Locutus9956 said:Better yet: Full Thrust. One of the best sapace combat games ever and with a superb ship design system
Interesting I´ve heard much about Full Thrust.
I look if I can get a Rulebook. From which company is Full Thrust ?
Lorcan Nagle
Mongoose
Goldritter said:Locutus9956 said:Better yet: Full Thrust. One of the best sapace combat games ever and with a superb ship design system
Interesting I´ve heard much about Full Thrust.
I look if I can get a Rulebook. From which company is Full Thrust ?
Ground Zero Games. I believe you can get PDFs of the rulebooks for free off their website
Goldritter
Mongoose
Thanks.
I donwload it and will read the rules if I´ve enough time.
I donwload it and will read the rules if I´ve enough time.
