Shadows - no anti-fighter, how do they win?

[MustEatBrains]

The new Shadow ships are balanced but don't reflect that seen in the show when it comes to fighters. I realise that there has to be a compromise, but Shadows in the show seem to fire their weapon in all directions. It's clearly seen that they fly and fire backwards at various times.

Not quite. When flying withou fighting, their tentacles point backwards. Whenever they fight, they reverse direction (sort of cruising/fighting modes?). Beams are always fired from between their tentacles, in a cone-like firing arc only a little bigger than that represented by the game´s front arc (once you take into account the change from 3d to 2d)...

 

[Voronesh]

When Shadows run, they dont fire backwards. Seen durin the battle of Coriana 6. ( i think it was 6)

SO actually the arc is ok, its just that against fighters, that shadows are pretty much powerless currently, and to top it off, Nials are the best antishadow fighter in existence, FAST, miniBEAM and stealth. And enough dogfight to laugh at shadow fighters ^^.

 

[Sulfurdown]

well if shadows beam was turreted to some extent like it was in B5Wars or even 1st edition ACTA they'd be fine but anywho

Wars actually had the slicer beams set in a forward arc with the exception of a possible very narrow aft facing arc, but it didn't have a turret type beam.

When Shadows run, they dont fire backwards. Seen durin the battle of Coriana 6. ( i think it was 6)

I believe Chrysalis shows a Shadow ship firing an "aft" arc. It was in the clip that was supposed to be an ISN broadcast from a Starfury that found a Shadow Ship in hyperspace.

Though if some of the AF issues can be resolved I don't have any reason that the Ships shouldn't remain with the arc as forward only. Both Vorlons and Shadows I believe had their beams capable of destroying fighters, the Shadows just had a very dramatic shot of them wiping out a flight of Frazi. Though the shadow ship only seems to kill about, what, 4 or 6 Frazis in one blast? The Shadow ships will average 6 hits (against anything) and the Frazi dodge will probably not live through that many hits. A flight is supposed to be equal to half dozen fighters so. It's just that in a game we are usually going to be seeing more then one Frazi flight per Shadow Ship.

 

[Misiolak]

I am going to play an Anihilation, 4 patrol, shadow vs EA 3age.
There is absolutely no way I can win. It takes one fighter launched from EA ship to evade me for eternity. If I take fighters instead of scout, they will stand no chance against Aurora Starfuries...
If only fighters didn't count as surviving ships in Anihilation, but they DO.

 

[madpax]

I know it's a very old statement, but, according to the TV show, shadow fighters seem very good. Well, I remember a clash between Frazi and shadow fighters, the latter had no problem disptching the former. A frazi had to ram a shadow fighter to kill at least one. Not a good way to win dogfight, though.
I have to see Shadows frightened by mere fighters...

Marc

 

[Ripple]

One solution might be to make it like the fighter launch tube. Shadow ships can gain a number of anti-fighter equal to their other weapon if they don't then fire in the regular firing option. As we see the shadow ship firing it's main weapon at the fighters this would fit fluff and balance needs.

I still think shadow fighters should be better...shield needs to have some impact on fighter activity (ie vs anti-fighter and dogfight) or yanked in favor of something that matters.

Ripple

 

[Na-Po]

Well with a scout you should be quick enough, and you are accurate.

Ok no beam but against fighters the scout should be ok

having no skirmish is yet a problem to the shadows, I would prefer
(in this case, 4 pat points) having 2 ski ships instead of 1 raid.

... Good luck

 

[DrSeltsam]

Well with a scout you should be quick enough, and you are accurate.

Ok no beam but against fighters the scout should be ok

having no skirmish is yet a problem to the shadows, I would prefer
(in this case, 4 pat points) having 2 ski ships instead of 1 raid.

... Good luck

Fighters move after the Scout has moved - you will never be fast enough because you will never be able to get any fighter into your front arc. Every figther i can think of has a higher speed value than the maximum weapon range of the Scout ... and that's all the figthers need to outmaneuver it.

The fighters just have to move into the side arc or out off range and that's it ...

 

[Sulfurdown]

Well with a scout you should be quick enough, and you are accurate.

Ok no beam but against fighters the scout should be ok

having no skirmish is yet a problem to the shadows, I would prefer
(in this case, 4 pat points) having 2 ski ships instead of 1 raid.

... Good luck

This is a situation where nothing but luck is going to help (B5:RPS!), since the presence of ANY fighters will automatically stalemate the game as a best outcome for the Shadow if you take anything other then fighters. Sure the Scout *might* out run the fighters but it will NEVER be able to fire on them. Even if you take out his capital ships, you're left with no recourse against the fighters. Though if you take your points as Fighters - all fabulous 8 of them. Then it takes so minimal effort for the opponent to eliminate them, not even having to take all the fleet points... I would be willing to bet that what you'll be facing is four wings of Thunderbolts. And if I'm not mistaken, they would be able to take down a Shadow Scout given enough time.

Best Tactic: Don't show up for this Scenario.

 

[DrSeltsam]

Best Tactic: Don't show up for this Scenario.

Yep ... or flee if possible :roll:

But i think that this ( "don't-show-up" option ) will give free XP dice for winning a battle to all the ships your opponent has send to the fight ... right or wrong ?

 

[Greg Smith]

No XP, but free RR points for 'winning' (page 86).

 

[DrSeltsam]

No XP, but free RR points for 'winning' (page 86).

Thanks for the clarification !

So this is a suitable option when attacking ( defender gains no extra RR for 'winning' the defended stratetic target ).

 

[Burger]

Yeah it is an option, all you lose is your tun at making an attack.
Its also a viable tactic when defending, if the loss of the ST would cost you less RR than the cost replacing a lost ship (yes I'm talking about you Shadows and Vorlons!)

 

[Locutus9956]

Simple solution (and one that would help the 'Shadow Fighters suck' winges):

Scout Varient: Shadow Fighter Killer

Nerf it to only 2 or 3 AD on its gun. Give it Anti fighter 3 or 4. Give it Escort.

and Roberts your mothers brother as it were. Nit pick details to your heards content folks, but you get the general idea!

 

[Sulfurdown]

No XP, but free RR points for 'winning' (page 86).

Are you sure on the RR? You get the 10 if you took the target, but just the same as the ships get 2xp for "Being on the winning side in the battle" the 5RR is "For every battle won this turn".
I always took the perspective that if the other player didn't show up, then there was no battle. There could be a change in hands of a target and it's subsequent bonus, but if no one is there then you didn't win a battle to get the 5RR and 2XP/ship bonuses.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

More than one thing is being discussed here. How Shadows fare in a campaign and how they fare in a one off game are completely different.

In a campaign, if the shadows destroy everything except the fighters and then cede the ST to their enemy, I'd give the strategic victory to the Shadows. Even taking into account the transfer of the ST the shadows have lost far less than their enemy. Even if their enemy decides to dump fighters and flee off the table, the Shadows should be able to cripple or destroy a ship or three before they can get out. Overall, the result should be satisfactory to the Shadows.

In a one off game though, I'm firmly in the just don't show up camp. It just isn't going to be fun and you'd be better off immediately moving on to a different scenario.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Target]

Maybe if we complain enough the Shadow fleet will be fleshed out a bit more, no reason why the scout can't get anti fighter & escort trait, doesn't have to be anything huge + lots of fighters ignore AF now anyway. It almost the role it's meant to fill.
Make Shadow fighter 4 flights, give Scout AF 2 & escort.
Maybe one day we will have Shadow & Vorlon carriers.
I'd buy a them if they had a more ship types.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm I doubt it

Matts response to my thread on Shadow fighters was pretty clear as to the direction of more Shadow ships / decent revison of the fighters - straight into a brick wall.

 

[Bostich]

Shadow player should just wait until the air runs out in the fighters and all the pilots die.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Don´t have the stats within reach atm, but don´t Shadow Fighters have Shields 1/1? But AF ignores traits of the fighters anyway, right? Because, if the Shadow Fighters could use their shield against AF weapons that should help making them more playable, right?