Shadows - no anti-fighter, how do they win?

[Sulfurdown]

Don´t have the stats within reach atm, but don´t Shadow Fighters have Shields 1/1? But AF ignores traits of the fighters anyway, right? Because, if the Shadow Fighters could use their shield against AF weapons that should help making them more playable, right?

Slightly more playable, yes. But unless you have SOME additional change it takes any other fleet to put down a point for a fighter wing and the Shadow Fighters will be overwhelmed. Even Kotha wings will overwhelm Shadow wings, and that's before you include any other fleet benefits.

<Insert 1pg Shadows Rant>
Rant being done - the Annihilation Patrol-4 is truely one of those situations where the best the Shadows can hope for is to move on, whether it's in a campaign or not, and the chances of this scenario being randomly rolled again and again is not likely.

 

[Ripple]

No one liked my cover the main weapon for a turn idea.... I'm sad...not even a shot saying it was stupid. =(

I hate the idea of the answer being a specialist ship like escort. The enemy simply shoots your specialist early and your right back where you started. Add in the severe restriction on fleet choices after that, as you will virtually always need at least one of these or you devolve to the same situation.

To the folks supporting the shadow scout as the answer do to the accurate trait...please respond to the folks rightly pointing out that you will never be able to shoot a fighter. This very issue is a big reason why the anti-fighter trait replaced the dedicated anti-fighter guns on all ships in second ed. Due to fighter movement rules no arc'd anti-fighter weapon will fire in it's intended role.

Ripple

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

How about saying that a fighter only counts as a remaining ship in Annihilation if it was from an independent wing (including deployed from a non-participating carrier)? I'm just not sure how that would tip the balance against carrier-based fleets though.

 

[Methos5000]

No XP, but free RR points for 'winning' (page 86).

Are you sure on the RR? You get the 10 if you took the target, but just the same as the ships get 2xp for "Being on the winning side in the battle" the 5RR is "For every battle won this turn".
I always took the perspective that if the other player didn't show up, then there was no battle. There could be a change in hands of a target and it's subsequent bonus, but if no one is there then you didn't win a battle to get the 5RR and 2XP/ship bonuses.

According to the rule book page 86:
Avoiding Battle
For many reasons, a player may decide not to fight when he realises he may not have a good chance for victory (or that even victory may cost him too much). A player may refuse to fi ght when attacked, but he will automatically lose the Strategic Target and will lose RR points as normal. The enemy will gain RR points as if he defeated the player. Neither will gain XP Dice for their ships.(emphasis added by me)

 

[Sulfurdown]

Thanks Methos, I didn't have a book with me or the energy to comb through the rules. I may not understand it but I'll remember it for future.

 

[Greg Smith]

It is entirely possible that one side decides they don't want to fight, so turns up, deploys backwards and retreats in the first turn. Ergo both sides get a few XP and it has the same effect as if one player declined to fight.

 

[Misiolak]

Ok, first:
It is a campain game, and I am atacking, so a Draw is enough for him.
Even if he takes only fighters (combination of 4 wings from max 2 wings t-bolts and 3 of auroras) scout is quick enough to suffer only small fire per round, easy to deflect/heal. So it is going to be stalemate.
Now, how do You solve anihilation stalemates?
A. Count VPS, if equal then draw - typical way to solve games that run out of time.
B. Not count fighters as ships for victory conditions of Anihilation - of course agreeded before battle
C. Reroll Scenario as "If you cannot play a scenario for any reason (do not have the correct ships, Vorlons can not planetary assault, etc.)
then re-roll on the table."
D. Other?

 

[Na-Po]

Well with a scout you should be quick enough, and you are accurate.

Ok no beam but against fighters the scout should be ok

having no skirmish is yet a problem to the shadows, I would prefer
(in this case, 4 pat points) having 2 ski ships instead of 1 raid.

... Good luck

Fighters move after the Scout has moved - you will never be fast enough because you will never be able to get any fighter into your front arc. Every figther i can think of has a higher speed value than the maximum weapon range of the Scout ... and that's all the figthers need to outmaneuver it.

The fighters just have to move into the side arc or out off range and that's it ...

What kind of fighter moves more than 20" ? (was talking about speed not weapons)

Edit : I agree with the mouvement order but don't tell me fighter can ruin your scout since you're faster. You can't loose, you might not win yet which leads to "How do we solve exequo ?" in annihilation scenario

 

[DrSeltsam]

What kind of fighter moves more than 20" ? (was talking about speed not weapons)

Edit : I agree with the mouvement order but don't tell me fighter can ruin your scout since you're faster. You can't loose, you might not win yet which leads to "How do we solve exequo ?" in annihilation scenario

The speed of the Scout is irrelevant in this situation. Sorry but you will never attack anything that you can't get into your front arc.

The Scout needs to get into 8" attack range to win - every fighter i can think of will be able to dance around the Scout or get out of the arc/range. Even most Breaching Pods are able to do this :roll:
The fighters move after the Scout and the player controlling the figthers can decide if he/she want's to attack or get out-of-range.

The speed will only help if you want to run ... but you can't hide :roll:

 

[Locutus9956]

What kind of fighter moves more than 20" ? (was talking about speed not weapons)

Edit : I agree with the mouvement order but don't tell me fighter can ruin your scout since you're faster. You can't loose, you might not win yet which leads to "How do we solve exequo ?" in annihilation scenario

The speed of the Scout is irrelevant in this situation. Sorry but you will never attack anything that you can't get into your front arc.

The Scout needs to get into 8" attack range to win - every fighter i can think of will be able to dance around the Scout or get out of the arc/range. Even most Breaching Pods are able to do this :roll:
The fighters move after the Scout and the player controlling the figthers can decide if he/she want's to attack or get out-of-range.

The speed will only help if you want to run ... but you can't hide :roll:

Technically I'd say the point is more that you CAN'T run but you CAN hide

 

[DrSeltsam]

The speed will only help if you want to run ... but you can't hide :roll:

Technically I'd say the point is more that you CAN'T run but you CAN hide

In the end it all depends on your "perspective" :wink:

 

[Misiolak]

The guy I am playing with and some others state that stalemate=draw.
I don't think it is fair, why not count VPS first. The difference is minimal. If by mistake of my opponent I am able to shoot down one of his fighters, shouldn't I win?
Or, which is more probable, I should quit whinning and loose/draw that game and move on with campain... :evil:

 

[Na-Po]

The speed of the Scout is irrelevant in this situation. Sorry but you will never attack anything that you can't get into your front arc.

Sorry to disagree the speed IS relevant as it prevents you from being hit so you can't loose.
I never said you could attack always and this is only a minor issue since you first have to stay alive before thinking of attacking
So now you can't loose (due to your speed) I agree that unless your opponent is making a huge mystake it will very diffucult to shoot those fighters.

THis makes us come back to : How do we deal with this kind of "draw" ?

Personnaly I would tend to use VP's in Anihilation scenario to check who's winning.

Edit : Unless you play forever (since you are shadow time is of little importance to you) and everyone in the ships you are facing is dying of age

 

[DrSeltsam]

@ Na-Po Ok , i think we can agree to several points but not all :wink:

I would like to argue with you that in this specific scenario the Scout can loose. It's again "you-can-run-but-you-can-not-hide" :wink:
Sure you can outrun a single fighter forever but the problem will be that there is more than one fighter. Depending on the fleet you can get something like ... lets say 10 fighter (?) or even more for 2 or 3 patrol point. With this amount of flights you can spread out on the table to ensure you will always be able to get a shoot at the ship. And even with this amount of fighters it will only be possible for the Scout to get a shoot at a fighter if the player controlling them will make a mistake.

 

[Misiolak]

Shadow scout can sit in a corner. (hate it)
Shadow scout regens 5 sields per turn. One or two fighters won't even scratch him.
So back to resolving the stalemate

 

[DrSeltsam]

Shadow scout can sit in a corner. (hate it)
Shadow scout regens 5 sields per turn. One or two fighters won't even scratch him.
So back to resolving the stalemate

Agree completely with you ( especially about the hate it part of corner sitting ). The Scout is only a very good example because it is a really fast ship, highest maneuver rate possible and really high initiative value .... and it will still loose or generate a stalemate in low PL games ... and now think about other races / fleets that will not have all of this and also no fighter defence :roll:

 

[Sulfurdown]

I imagine that would be up to the players to solve a Stalemate. In the Annihilation scenario you cannot secure victory by any kind of VP or FAP values since the scenario by definition is only won when one side is left standing.

My suggestions for resolving it would be to either declare the battle void and move on to the next campaign turn or consider both fleets to have "lost" without any change in hands on the target, so minimal XP and no RR, etc.

 

[Burger]

The same issue comes up when playing Annihilation in a tournament, and time runs out for the game. We've always used VPs to settle it.

 

[Sulfurdown]

The same issue comes up when playing Annihilation in a tournament, and time runs out for the game. We've always used VPs to settle it.

So what happens if neither side has any VP?

 

[katadder]

well in a tourney that would be a 10/10 draw. in a campaign no one wins or loses so no territorys change hands and none of benefits/drawbacks apply as no one has won or lost.