Shadow Tactics

[jedimasterwiggy]

Hello all,
We have a campaign running amognst a group of friends and our shadow player keeps getting beaten so I thought I would turn to the board to see what advice can be offered.
We run the standard campaign from the the rule book (10 pt Battle, random missions etc) and his starting fleet was 1 Arm, 2 war, 3 raid and some fighters. We are trying the 1st edition fleet breakdown of points as the little swarms of ships did too much in the last campaign.
Big issues he seems to have are: -
1) Doesn't rate the battle level shadow so has no skirmish or battle ships
2) Gets pinned really easily
3) Never seems to kick out much damage (might be a dice rolling issue at times, his wars do about 18 dam on average)
4) Games with little or no scenery gives him nowhere to hide.

I know this is a bit of a broad subject but any general principles of shadow play, ship composition or whether the battle is actually worth taking would be nice to hear.

Cheers
Wiggy

 

[Burger]

1) Yeah the Stalker does kind of suck. It's just like a scout with hull 6 but no stealth. So against beam weapons it really does suck totally.
2) Yeah, scouts are easily pinned if their stealth is broken. Not really much you can do against this, except don't get shot. Use your SM to get behind or in side arcs, to acoid beams.
3) Shadows are a bit of a finesse fleet, they tend to work best as "hit and run" rather than sit there blasting. Again use SM to avoid retaliatory fire: if you're doing damage but not receiving any back, it's all good!
4) Yeah true, not much you can do against this.

Playing Shadows in a campaign, the most important thing to realize is that your ships cost double that of everyone else's. While this may seem fair at first since they all get repaired for free, it is actually a very heavy price to pay. You really need to pay attention to the overall war, and not get caught up in the battle. To buy or replace one Scout costs you 24 RR. If you are attacker, winning the scenario gets you 15 RR. So it really isn't worth losing even one scout, to gain a new strategic target. Defending, you lose 15 RR for losing a strategic target, so just let your opponent win if keeping it would cost you even one scout. Fight on your own terms only. And know the cost of victory, compared to the cost of letting it go.

 

[Da Boss]

Fleet wise I would go with:

Ancient (else you will never afford it)
Youngster
Scouts

don't bother buying fighters - or at least until the P+P supplment makes them usable

as usual Burger has it all down

 

[Shadow Queen]

make your opponant go first evey time you win the innt, and see if you can attack from the aft of your target as thwy have less die to roll

 

[AdrianH]

1: I agree, the Stalker is approximately useless except in low priority games where you can't afford a Young Ship, and almost useless even then because you're generally better off with two Scouts.

2: Yes, a Young Ship is likely to get pinned by most ships with a strong beam, especially if something else has taken out its shields first.

3: Not including criticals, 18 is about average for 6D triple damage.

4: Scenarios might allow ships to start off in hyperspace. If so, the Shadows' hyperspace mastery allows them to start off with all their ships in hyperspace - use it. Otherwise, if the enemy has fewer ships, make sure you don't move your big ship until his ship with the biggest beam has moved (which won't help you at long range against a Sharlin or Vorlon cruiser as their beams aren't limited to boresight). Failing all else, if he insists on deploying something that's guaranteed to pin you and won't let you use scenery, just tell him that if he's that desperate to win the game, you concede, and save some time.

And use pairs of Scouts to kill enemy fighters. Their accurate weapons ignore the fighters' dodge. One Scout alone won't do any good as the fighters move after it, and will just sit in its aft and side arcs and kill it. Two Scouts facing each other, about 4" - 5" apart (depending on what weapons the fighters have), can cover each other. Either park them either side of your own big ship to cover it, or put them either side of an enemy ship so the one which isn't killing fighters can attack the ship instead.

 

[Locutus9956]

@Burger - Yep agree there for the most part, the key to playing Shadows in campaign is to inflict as much damage as you can and withdraw without loss whenever possible. You wont ever have to pay to reapair and if you can keep this up for a while and only press your advantage when its critical and you can win overwhelmingly you will do very nicely in the long run.

@Da Boss - Agree on the ancient, I might go to 2 Young ships as well, and might drop one scout for some wings of fighters (yes they suck but in really low PL games they can have their uses) (If you end up facing say, a lone Vorchan or something, those fighters can suddenly seem quite nasty....)

@Shadowqueen - I would hope he could figure that part out without advice or frankly I think he's beyond help and should put the dice down and back away slowly That said it's something that new players could overlook. Shadows are NOT the juggernougths they seem to be in the show and you cant just sit there and take the enemies fire without effect and need to take full advantage of their manueverability to win.

@Adrian - Yep, the Stalker blows. Even in a lower PL game I still think I'd take 2 scouts over it almost every time I'm trying to think of a situation I would actually use it but nothing springs to mind, yes young ships can get pinned but they can also take alot of damage before they actually die. They can make good 'anvils to lure in your opponents beam forces while your faster shorter ranged packs of scouts outflank and hammer them from behind/sides). 18 damage is about average for regular beams but for precice beams you'd expect them to score a decent number of crits too and dish out a bit more. Regarding hypersapce, absolutely, use it whenever you can as a Shadow player in fact often a hyperspace allowed scenario is virtually an automatic win for the Shadows in my experience (remeber though that the enemy can (and unless theyre clinically INSANE, WILL keep some ships in reserve himself in such a scenario to stop the shadows jumping in behind his entire fleet. Well unless your facing Vree who just wont care what direction you come from )

To the original poster:

1)As everyone has said before me, yes the Stalker is arse. If you can afford to take a Young Shadow ship instead and if you cant then swap it for 2 scouts. Now the lack of a skirmish option can make things tricky in really low PL games but at no level of play I can think of is the lack of a Battle choice going to cause any real problems since you have an excellent Raid option and an Excellent War option (and an horrific Armageddon option in larger games). As another adition to all this I personally actually think shadows in CAMPAIGN play will tend to have a harder time to an extent in high PL games. Basically the reason for this is that YES you do have expensive ships and thus cant field your nastier ships most of the time in lower games but in big games your opponent can focus so much firepower on one of your ships that the chances of getting through with NO LOSSES is slim and that for first ones is the trick in campaign play. Shadows do well at raid and battle in my opinion and indeed in say a 5 point battle I might even try an ancient ship for 4 of my points, jump in, scrag something then run. A wise opponent will NEVER field a big target when facing shadows though if he's sensible so bear that in mind!

2) It may sound obvious but the key to not getting pinned is to not get shot by big beam hits! Use your maneuvering rules, speed, hyperspace and any possible cover to avoid return fire whenever you can!

3) Thats a tad lower than I'd expect when factoring in crits but not that bad. Shadows are crit machines really that rely on avoiding return fire rather than flat outshooting their opponents though.

4) I cant recommend highly enough playing with at least a LITTLE scenery whenever its allowed by the scenario. It really does improve the game imeasurably.

 

[cthol24601]

Its interesting but, unlike the series, I've never had trouble with the shadows in a game. Even last time at 7 point battle my Dilgar cleared them away with ease. Even my Centauri have never had to worry too much.

Unlike the show I find Shadows to not be too bad. Yet to be balanced you can't have the 4 shadow vessels against a pair of G'quans like you see on TV. Interesting puzzle I guess.

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Hi

Well i've just got a couple of points to make here agreeing with what pretty much everyone else says. However remember scouts and stalker most importantly can jump 20" in almost any direction using their special ability fly stragiht past the enemy, get in his rear and then just sit their repairing yourself and shooting.

Also remember in campaigns wait for the perfect moment to gang up on someone, stab them in the back make him split his forces. Let him make the decisions.

 

[AdrianH]

Its interesting but, unlike the series, I've never had trouble with the shadows in a game. Even last time at 7 point battle my Dilgar cleared them away with ease. Even my Centauri have never had to worry too much.

That's because the Shadows are considerably less powerful in the game than in the series!

Unlike the show I find Shadows to not be too bad. Yet to be balanced you can't have the 4 shadow vessels against a pair of G'quans like you see on TV. Interesting puzzle I guess.

As I recall, the battle at Gorash involved rather more than a pair of G'Quans. By the time they got their jump drives back on line there were only two left, which was when we got to see the Shadows' jump point disruptors. But that was after we'd also seen the Shadows slice other G'Quans apart with single shots - try that in the game, even with the Ancient Ship...

 

[Burger]

Yeah, I believe it was 4 Shadow Ships vs 7 or 8 G'Quans (one of which ad an admiral on board... and could jump in and out of a battle...)

 

[cthol24601]

As I recall, the battle at Gorash involved rather more than a pair of G'Quans. By the time they got their jump drives back on line there were only two left, which was when we got to see the Shadows' jump point disruptors. But that was after we'd also seen the Shadows slice other G'Quans apart with single shots - try that in the game, even with the Ancient Ship...

YEah I know the scene I was just making up an example of the kind you often saw in the series. I find when playing shadows I will loose a few ships because of those triple damage beams etc but I will have enough firepower to bear to disintegrate them one at a time with lighter fast vessels so it can be a tactical issues as well. i find in the series though that the Shadows have a lot of that "as tough as the plot demands" thing happening. ie a Gorash 7 4 trash a fleet of G'quans yet we see them go down to a few white stars or a white star/G'quan/telepath combo relatively easily in other situations.

 

[jedimasterwiggy]

Hey all,
Thanks for the responses, will relay on all points (except if I think it will give him advantage vs my Vree in which case he can suffer!)
Lots mention getting out of the way of beams but due to the way initiative works and as Shadows generally have few ships surely the enemy just move a couple of weaker ships and keep the big beams till they know where the shadows are. 20" move won't ake you behind most beams that I can think of except centauri Battle lasers.
Also, 1 tactic our player has sometimes tried is to squadron all his ships together (last game was 2 war and a scout), reasoning that if he's not going to be able to outmanouvre more numerous opponents at least all ships can shoot first. Any opinions on whether this is a good or bad move?

Ta
Wiggy

 

[Da Boss]

Hey all,
Thanks for the responses, will relay on all points (except if I think it will give him advantage vs my Vree in which case he can suffer!)
Lots mention getting out of the way of beams but due to the way initiative works and as Shadows generally have few ships surely the enemy just move a couple of weaker ships and keep the big beams till they know where the shadows are. 20" move won't ake you behind most beams that I can think of except centauri Battle lasers.
Also, 1 tactic our player has sometimes tried is to squadron all his ships together (last game was 2 war and a scout), reasoning that if he's not going to be able to outmanouvre more numerous opponents at least all ships can shoot first. Any opinions on whether this is a good or bad move?

Ta
Wiggy

If you are outnumbered def a good idea..................fire first and make it more even in numbers............ 8)

Of course with non scouts ships it so much depends on your one beam roll............... just getting 1 or 2 hits from your War ship can be a problem.

 

[Na-Po]

Right now we are into turn 5 of our campaign where I play Shadows.
I begun with : 1 ancient (as previously said if not taken at the beggining then it's too expensive)
2 young and 4 scouts.
Have won 1 or 2 fights and didn't showed myself to at least 2 fights
(Patrol Annihilation is too risky against dilgar or brakiri)

In a general way in Campaign choose fights from where you can withdraw if in trouble.

Right now my fleet is 1 ancient, 3 young and 6 scouts
(no battle, they're too weak imo)

I've lost my mining outpost but time is my ally, as long as live and gain RR I can buy ships and decide where to strike so when the odds are against you just don't show.

 

[aqp.accounts]

Regarding hypersapce, absolutely, use it whenever you can as a Shadow player in fact often a hyperspace allowed scenario is virtually an automatic win for the Shadows in my experience (remeber though that the enemy can (and unless theyre clinically INSANE, WILL keep some ships in reserve himself in such a scenario to stop the shadows jumping in behind his entire fleet. Well unless your facing Vree who just wont care what direction you come from )

Just curious, I know using the Jump Point Disrupter is seen on screen to stop ships escaping. But has anyone used it to stop ships jumping INTO a fight? Thought just crossed my mind when reading all this Shadow Tactics.

 

[Da Boss]

er I don't think you can

Away from books but I think it says it can be used only on ships tyring to enter hyperspace?

 

[Locutus9956]

I don't have the books to hand but I'm pretty sure the JP disrupter rules are such that you can only target outgoing jump points.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I have the books to hand, and can confirm that it's jump points leading to hyperspace only.