Scholar career ranks/paths kind of messed up

[MonsterX]

Of course, this is the far future, and things might be different then but given Traveller's military careers are more or less modeled on contemporary practices (enlisted vs. officer division, ranks), or at least on Honor Harrington books which are modeled on contemporary practices, it seems like Scholar careers could also try to make sense. It is not like it is mysterious or hard to figure out.

IRL, physicians are not scholars. They learn the medical profession, which would more properly be put under "citizen". Some go into research, but that's a different career - best handled by a career change.

There is not really a division of Scientists vs. Field; it is more just a question of research method and scientists who do field work do it to collect data or samples to bring back to the lab. There is a division of Industry vs. Government vs. Academia. The first two don't have a clear universal rank structure but the last does. Movement between these is not uncommon. The rank structure is Grad Student, Post Doc, Assistant Professor (or Lecturer), Associate Professor (or Reader) and Professor. You might consider a named or endowed Chair as a step up from Professor. Then there are administrative ranks such as Department Chair, but these are not promotions, but rather onerous obligations which intelligent professors try to avoid.

Any of the different assignment tracks might go into the field, work in a lab, teach, write, and administer. Except in government and industry they generally don't teach. Since most of the skills on most of the tables are by definition "advanced education" it would be better instead to replace that with a table labelled "field" for field skills. Then the assignment track tables can cover the lab, writing and teaching skills.

At the moment, you can make a scientist with the rules, but you kind of have to impose a lot on the backstory for it to make any kind of sense. It would be better to fix it to give it an actual feel of creating a real scientist. And best to get the physicians out of there.

 

[ottarrus]

Well, Honor Harrington is mostly 'Aubrey Hornblower in SPAAACE' [with more than a little Richard Sharpe thrown in]. If anything Traveller influenced Harrington, not the other way 'round.
But you make EXCELLENT points about 'the business of science' as it applies to current Earth. Especially your point about how real scientists try to avoid the political /managerial posts offered by corporations and academia. It is in some ways similar to the military struggle between staff and command positions, though that comparison is somewhat limited.
Perhaps a better promotion might be 'Sponsored Research' or 'Patron Funding'?
Another thing, now that you mention Science in Traveller is how come there is no mention of the Imperial Research Stations [etc.] in the Events table. You'd think that would show up somewhere.

 

[Arkathan]

Perhaps you can reconcile it better if you think of the medical profession in more Star Trek terms.
Practicing medicine while constantly researching cures and weird interactions with alien life... because that is what the crew/colony gets exposed to.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Of course, this is the far future, and things might be different then but given Traveller's military careers are more or less modeled on contemporary practices (enlisted vs. officer division, ranks), ... it seems like Scholar careers could also try to make sense. It is not like it is mysterious or hard to figure out.

Yes, I agree. But don't want to make the game too snobbish and cliquey. If stigma can be avoided, for entertainment purposes, then go for it.

There is a division of Industry vs. Government vs. Academia. The first two don't have a clear universal rank structure but the last does.

There is difference between the subject of study and the way people learn something to be correct. The latter is the study of Academia, but Traveller doesn't really award academic level skills, so it would be ironic to have academic structure, and not have academic skills as an achievement. Academic skills may include planning and decision making (Tactics), Leadership, Persuasion, Investigation. Plus there are life skills gained from being exposed to numerous students, like: carouse, gamble, survival, steward. Plus there is the subject specific skills. IMO, all subject specific skills, and skills that overlap with these, should be min 0 after four years - but, that might be me being too snobby.

The rank structure is Grad Student, Post Doc, Assistant Professor (or Lecturer), Associate Professor (or Reader) and Professor. You might consider a named or endowed Chair as a step up from Professor.

Also Post Graduate, Teaching Assistant, Research Assistant, Dean, Principle, Vice Chancellor. Probably too much detail for a game.

 

[ottarrus]

Perhaps you can reconcile it better if you think of the medical profession in more Star Trek terms.
Practicing medicine while constantly researching cures and weird interactions with alien life... because that is what the crew/colony gets exposed to.

I see your point, and it's a good one, but I'm not sure how well that would work out.
A ship's doctor on a cruiser most likely doesn't have time for really concentrated meaningful research. The TOS Enterprise had 400 some-odd people on it. These were mostly humans, so that made it easier. But by the time you get to TNG, there's 1000 people aboard, including civilians, and a really stirred-in mix of aliens. Not only are you adding other specialties to the medical demands [most military ships don't need a pediatrician] but you add in the entire spectrum of alien ailments and specialties.
Now, obviously medicine has advanced and computing systems will help immensely, but it's still gonna be complicated AF.

Turning to a Traveller game, imagine being the Lt. Commander who heads the Medical Department of the Ops Division aboard a ship of the line... Not a Tigress, but maybe a Plankwell or a Korrikak. That's a couple-three thousand sophonts aboard. You got maybe two other doctors [one of whom is probably a dentist] and probably 3 or 4 qualified nurses and maybe 15 medics of all specialties [from Pharmacy to Dental Assistant]. And that's to care for AT LEAST three major species aboard... Humaniti, Aslan, and Vargr... plus a small contingent of random minor species. That team has to do everything from keeping medical records up to date to combat triage.

So in both a Star Trek and a Traveller sense, I don't really know where the time to do research is gonna come from.

Two side thoughts:
a] Traveller naval vessels are warfighters. The only 'science department' they have aboard is the Medical Department and what ever scientific degrees the various officers picked up. You have a problem with a non-carbon based lifeform on your patrol? Well, Ens. Smithers had a minor in Xenobiology in college....

b] I'm kinda chuckling to myself thinking of having to be a dentist on a battleship with Aslan and Vargr aboard... Yeah, that'd be 'a thing'

 

[Anstett]

b] I'm kinda chuckling to myself thinking of having to be a dentist on a battleship with Aslan and Vargr aboard... Yeah, that'd be 'a thing'

I can run/pounce with that idea.

 

[Anstett]

I have a player who leaned in heavily to the scientist, researcher vision that she discovered during character creation.
So much so that we went with the old lab ship and did the backstory work for researchers and traveling from system to system in search of research grants.

Who is now about to meet King Oleb with the expectation that his mysterious offer might lead to a grant to work on .......

 

[J. L. Brown]

I agree about medical doctors; some few are MD/PhD researchers, but most are 'practical application' specialists; sort of the same division you see between a materials science researcher and a structural engineer -- the first is a scientist, the second is not.

Academia / Industry / Government is actually a really good approach, I think -- many of the Mongoose 1e Traveller expanded career books had three different options (and rank structures) per specific career. Academia and government are both pretty easy to assign 'ranks' to, but 'Industry' has me stumped. I also agree with your changing 'Advanced Education' out for something else, although I would not call it 'field work' -- not every specialty requires 'going into the field' to do hands-on stuff. Maybe 'Original Research'?

 

[Geir]

In any case, Medic is one of those skills where some specialisation would have been warranted. Even though I once had a gastro-intestinal surgeon fix up my head wound (no, honest, no brain damage at all), that was probably more from his time serving on the New Jersey off Vietnam (he had home movies; those were fun) than from anything he picked up in his residency.

And xeno-medicine is entirely missing -unless it's a Science or Animal speciality (and being a small animal veterinarian does not give you any proficiency in riding a horse, but that's another thing altogether). You would think in an interstellar society with many species, you'd need that. A doctor trained on humans could probably figure out a Vargr, but there are plenty of human drugs and foods that can kill a dog, so even then, it might not be good. Put a Vegan or Aslan on the table and they might be basically humanoid on the outside, but the guts will be much further from us than the guts (or brain!) of an octopus.

There does have to be some control over skill sprawl, and I'm not suggesting going back to making SMG or Shotgun a separate skill, but I still miss Zero-G, Battledress (though I suppose it could be called 'Power suit' or something less military), Gravitics, and Instruction - and don't get me started on Computer...

 

[Arkathan]

So in both a Star Trek and a Traveller sense, I don't really know where the time to do research is gonna come from.

Cruisers will have Navy medics.
I'm thinking more research vessels, civvy transports and colonies.

While there may not be time for research, the research must occur.
I'm reminded of the SW Expanded Universe novel in which one of the non-canon characters... Kyle Katarn(?) Corrin Horn (thanks EccentRick!) had a fling with a cat girl. The affair ended with both of them discovering they were allergic to each other.
Now, SOMEBODY's going to have to treat that rash.

 

[Terry Mixon]

There does have to be some control over skill sprawl, and I'm not suggesting going back to making SMG or Shotgun a separate skill, but I still miss Zero-G, Battledress (though I suppose it could be called 'Power suit' or something less military), Gravitics, and Instruction - and don't get me started on Computer...

Agreed on all of those.

 

[EccentRick]

I'm reminded of the SW Expanded Universe novel in which one of the non-canon characters... Kyle Katarn(?) had a fling with a cat girl. The affair ended with both of them discovering they were allergic to each other.

Corren Horn, in is cop days before joining Rogue Squadron.

 

[shirgall]

My current group had someone that drove hard on Physician until getting to Medic 4 and mustered out because she was tired of being in a clean, stale hospital for years and years and wanted to see the Universe. So long as your character end up for a reason to want to travel among the stars, which is not the safest thing in the world, how they got there can be very different than where they are going.

 

[Garran]

I feel that the current setup is fine. Yes, there's a bit of abstraction but the same is true of the other careers to varying degrees. All three specialties involve some sort of high end academics and varying levels of practical application, and the level of practical application will come down to the character's narrative and the specific skills that the character gets out of it, anyway - Science 1 / Engineer 4 is quite possible here.

Field researcher vs scientist strikes me as less a case of whether the field researcher does lab work (they almost certainly do), but whether field methods in relatively uncontrolled conditions is (or should be, if they're doing a proper job of it) a major component of their work: wildlife biology, cultural anthropology, and so on, in which case Field Researcher is the appropriate specialty.

On the other hand, if you can reasonably carry out most or all of your work in an office or controlled laboratory environment then you fall under Researcher: mathematics, most kinds of physics, etc.

You can freely switch specialties, and a career scientist is liable to end up spending some time in both, especially as major projects may force a shift of focus.


On the "government/industry/academics" front, I don't like that because it presumes that every society arranges itself that way; a quick look at planet profiles (never mind non-Imperium polities) suggests that there are far too many cases where it won't.

 

[Condottiere]

It's a sign of progress.

Wizards used to have to research all their magic spells and potions themselves, rather than going to wizarding school, and having all that knowledge regurgitated.

Replace the term wizard with quack.

 

[MonsterX]

Another thing, now that you mention Science in Traveller is how come there is no mention of the Imperial Research Stations [etc.] in the Events table. You'd think that would show up somewhere.

yes. Although I think they were trying to make the core rules careers generic, for some field they are and some they aren't, and IMO the careers benefit by integrating the setting more . Research stations seem to be an important part of the 3I science world, so it would make sense to have them, somehow. IMTU, they are like research stations IRL: they might have visiting academics from universities or other orgs, and will have their own staff. Some are pretty open but others need permits or security clearances to visit.

 

[MonsterX]

Also Post Graduate, Teaching Assistant, Research Assistant, Dean, Principle, Vice Chancellor. Probably too much detail for a game.

Post Graduate is graduate student, but in the UK. Teaching Assistant is a graduate student who has been assigned to teaching, Research Assistant a graduate student assigned to research. Principles are for secondary schools. Deans & Vice Chancellors are administrators, who had been academics but drew the short straw, and are now stuck solving other people's problems rather than their own.

 

[MonsterX]

Field researcher vs scientist strikes me as less a case of whether the field researcher does lab work (they almost certainly do), but whether field methods in relatively uncontrolled conditions is (or should be, if they're doing a proper job of it) a major component of their work: wildlife biology, cultural anthropology, and so on, in which case Field Researcher is the appropriate specialty.

The problem with the division is that the Scientist specialization ends up with much more Science skill, while the Field Researcher doesn't get enough. Over a career if there is time to switch back and forth it evens out. But those with shorter careers can end up with scientists that barely have science skills. Especially if they didn't go to university and take "science" - which come to think of it ought to be a requirement to enter the career. Nobody even starts out as a grad student if they don't have the science skills from undergrad.

 

[MonsterX]

On the "government/industry/academics" front, I don't like that because it presumes that every society arranges itself that way; a quick look at planet profiles (never mind non-Imperium polities) suggests that there are far too many cases where it won't.

That's a good point, but most low pop planets won't have an independent academia of their own - they also probably lack a research establishment generally. Research scientists on low pop worlds are most likely attached to universities elsewhere and doing work on that world. Although the governments and other organizations may have science advisors of various types, and companies will have the kind of scientists they need for whatever they do - like geologists for mining. Those won't really be doing academic research per se. But looking Imperium wide, the division would still apply. It probably works differently for alien races, however, or for some of the human races even.

 

[MasterGwydion]

yes. Although I think they were trying to make the core rules careers generic, for some field they are and some they aren't, and IMO the careers benefit by integrating the setting more . Research stations seem to be an important part of the 3I science world, so it would make sense to have them, somehow. IMTU, they are like research stations IRL: they might have visiting academics from universities or other orgs, and will have their own staff. Some are pretty open but others need permits or security clearances to visit.

The Third Imperium book would have benefited from a character creation section with events tables for Careers in the 3I.