Scenario Victory Pts
- Thread starter Grunvald
- Start date
Centauri_Admiral
Mongoose
I don't see anything wrong with the rules as they are now; and to start changing them just because one person is being pwnd in our campaign is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.
At some point, Grunvald, the other players were going to work out a way to defeat your fleet strengths, but with all that said you still retain an incredibly powerful fleet. Your problem now is, that you are facing up against other fleets that have been succesfull in engagements and have mulitple ways of countering your strengths, up to now you have been in a very powerful position, I'm sorry but you can't have it all your own way.
The Vorlons have no way of capturing planets, so an exception was made for you, which allows your fighters to take planets by landing and becoming troops. If Cuthalion made all the concessions to you that you ask for, including CAF for Vorlons, you would be UNDEFEATABLE, and that would bring an end to the campaign . . . . . in defence of carried flights, if they actually yield VP's then no sane person would ever deploy them, which is then tipping the balance of fairness against the person using carried flights.
Aside from this, I think we should revert back to 1st Ed anyway, I'm no fan of the apparent 2e upgrade of the rules . . . . . I frequently ask myself whether the games designers and playtesters were on smack when they developed it, and if its the same crew doing the roolz for P&P I might just end up on smack myself, either that or slitting my wrists and pissing my blood all up the club walls.
Still, roolz is roolz, and themz the roolz. In our club we have made house rules to bring some sense back to the game, and these were "group" decisions but they have bugger all to do with MGP and Cuthalion is our GM and his word is final.
At some point, Grunvald, the other players were going to work out a way to defeat your fleet strengths, but with all that said you still retain an incredibly powerful fleet. Your problem now is, that you are facing up against other fleets that have been succesfull in engagements and have mulitple ways of countering your strengths, up to now you have been in a very powerful position, I'm sorry but you can't have it all your own way.
The Vorlons have no way of capturing planets, so an exception was made for you, which allows your fighters to take planets by landing and becoming troops. If Cuthalion made all the concessions to you that you ask for, including CAF for Vorlons, you would be UNDEFEATABLE, and that would bring an end to the campaign . . . . . in defence of carried flights, if they actually yield VP's then no sane person would ever deploy them, which is then tipping the balance of fairness against the person using carried flights.
Aside from this, I think we should revert back to 1st Ed anyway, I'm no fan of the apparent 2e upgrade of the rules . . . . . I frequently ask myself whether the games designers and playtesters were on smack when they developed it, and if its the same crew doing the roolz for P&P I might just end up on smack myself, either that or slitting my wrists and pissing my blood all up the club walls.
Still, roolz is roolz, and themz the roolz. In our club we have made house rules to bring some sense back to the game, and these were "group" decisions but they have bugger all to do with MGP and Cuthalion is our GM and his word is final.
lol sounds like his vorlons are getting a whole heap anyway then. and the reasons vorlons cant use CAF is because even if they were allowed to use it they have no ships to use it on as beams cannot CAF 
vorlons/shadows (and minbos) just have to give the +3 mod to every game and hope for a high roll
as an aside what is it you dont like from 2e? and what have you changed?
vorlons/shadows (and minbos) just have to give the +3 mod to every game and hope for a high roll as an aside what is it you dont like from 2e? and what have you changed?
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Seriously, Grunvald, I find the Vorlons one of the very few races that I have zero major compliants. If I have any, it's that the Vorlon figher is too good!
No Vorlon ship shows up in my list of top 50 ships that need fixing. That's .... actually, pretty impressive.
You could argue that the double-cost is inappropriate for Vorlon Fighters because they don't get to take advantage of Self-Repair or Zero Crew, nor is there any access to any Fleet Carrier or Carrier. On the other hand, the things are so bloody vile (AAF, range 3, beam, precise all in one package) that the double cost fits. You have to choose where and when you're going to use the little things. Perhaps you use them only against fighter-weak races, like Minbari (great choice!) and Drazi. Perhaps only in Patrol-level scenarios, where they can easily kill Patrol ships without recompense.
In a campaign, always remember that you have the advantage of being able to retreat at the last instant for very little cost. The Shadows and ISA with their self-repair are good at this, too. You only give away 25% of the VPs when you leave a fight, so, kill kill kill, and when they all get behind you, leave, knowing that you killed enough to still win (most) scenarios. The Light Cruiser and Destroyer are EXCELLENT at these tricks. The Shadows are even better.....
No Vorlon ship shows up in my list of top 50 ships that need fixing. That's .... actually, pretty impressive.
You could argue that the double-cost is inappropriate for Vorlon Fighters because they don't get to take advantage of Self-Repair or Zero Crew, nor is there any access to any Fleet Carrier or Carrier. On the other hand, the things are so bloody vile (AAF, range 3, beam, precise all in one package) that the double cost fits. You have to choose where and when you're going to use the little things. Perhaps you use them only against fighter-weak races, like Minbari (great choice!) and Drazi. Perhaps only in Patrol-level scenarios, where they can easily kill Patrol ships without recompense.
In a campaign, always remember that you have the advantage of being able to retreat at the last instant for very little cost. The Shadows and ISA with their self-repair are good at this, too. You only give away 25% of the VPs when you leave a fight, so, kill kill kill, and when they all get behind you, leave, knowing that you killed enough to still win (most) scenarios. The Light Cruiser and Destroyer are EXCELLENT at these tricks. The Shadows are even better.....
Centauri_Admiral
Mongoose
We have changed the CAF rules to allow a re-roll on the first round of beam rolls, to bring a little reliability into beams and its working . . . . only Vorlons and Shadows can't use that order anyway.
Vorlons and consequently Shadows as well, can land fighters and convert them to troops, therefore allowing them to take planets.
Just a few common sense modifications; my comments weren't aimed you anyway mate [katadder] as I've met you and I know you are a sound bloke.
Vorlons and consequently Shadows as well, can land fighters and convert them to troops, therefore allowing them to take planets.
Just a few common sense modifications; my comments weren't aimed you anyway mate [katadder] as I've met you and I know you are a sound bloke.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Centauri Admiral:
For a system that doesn't affect game balance (allowing a CAF-effect on beams does) that does make beams a bit more predictable, check out this idea from several people (not just Burger).
We locally are considering using it as a tournament rule if the Chicago clan organizes another tournament, to try to ensure that skill wins a tourney, not dice. At least, not so much.
For a system that doesn't affect game balance (allowing a CAF-effect on beams does) that does make beams a bit more predictable, check out this idea from several people (not just Burger).
We locally are considering using it as a tournament rule if the Chicago clan organizes another tournament, to try to ensure that skill wins a tourney, not dice. At least, not so much.
Shut Up Hippie!
Mongoose
Is Grumvald Moaning again? I do see his point, as we discussed when we were playing the game, but as Centauri Admirals rightly says
A number of concessions have been made in our campaign which do specifically help the Vorlons ie Vorlon fighters landing on planets being
counted as troops so the planet can be captured
I guess Grumveld may want to reconsider taking a battle points worth of fighters ie 24 flights in games that rely on victory points to determine the winner!
[/quote]
A number of concessions have been made in our campaign which do specifically help the Vorlons ie Vorlon fighters landing on planets being
counted as troops so the planet can be captured
I guess Grumveld may want to reconsider taking a battle points worth of fighters ie 24 flights in games that rely on victory points to determine the winner!
[/quote]
Shut Up Hippie!
Mongoose
In our campaign I have recently began using 2 squadrons of 3 shadow Hunters (our fleets are maxed at 8 pts battle), using our club CAF rules with these boys makes them exceptionally deadly. Even to Grumvald's War level Vorlon Cruisers and its annoying AA!
Centauri_Admiral
Mongoose
CZuschlag said:
I see your point. However, there are 7 players of ACTA at our club, and the vast majority agreed to this house rule in our club, as all fleets except vorlon and shadows stand to gain from this house rule. Of course we have still said that you cannot re-roll beam dice from a scout lock-on, given the prolific amount of scouts that could be taken, and given the CAF limits you to the ship you are targetting and its a CQ8 check, not automatic we all felt this was an acceptable balance.
This is only at our club though, and if we were playing elsewhere we would uphold their house rules, as we would expect visitors to respect ours. But ultimately it is what we, at the walsall warlords, feel is right and as adults we discussed the extents and the limitations this house rule would allow. If we subsequently, as a group, agree that this has become too powerful we may change it. Of course, say a shadow hunter with 5ad CAF's, he may fluff his first rolls and get no hits, his re-roll gets him a full 5 hits, but his subsequent rolls are crap and only gets a couple of extra hits. Its all swings and roundabouts, and I think people should use whatever they think works, we all feel this brings a little bit of reliability/predictability to ships/fleets that are reliant on beams, provided of course they can use the CAF order in the first place.
And once again I say, CAF with Quad damage beams, would result in me taking a trip to the local drug dealers, buying myself a couple of lines and snorting myself in some kind of stupour. Neither of those is going to happen, not in walsall warlords, and certainly not while I'm still drawing breath.lol
CZuschlag
Mongoose
.... Early EA .... pak'ma'ra .... Ipsha ....
Just sayin'.
It's not quite SO important; Close Blast Doors is so ridiculously powerful that foregoing it is far from obvious in even marginal situations. CAF used to be the most powerful SA in 1st Editon. In Second Edition, it's Close Blast Doors (something should be done to rein this SA in, but that's just me.)
BTW, CAFing Drakh Raiders are HIDEOUS (because they can't CBD). That's something you want to take care of, immediatmente.
Just sayin'.
It's not quite SO important; Close Blast Doors is so ridiculously powerful that foregoing it is far from obvious in even marginal situations. CAF used to be the most powerful SA in 1st Editon. In Second Edition, it's Close Blast Doors (something should be done to rein this SA in, but that's just me.)
BTW, CAFing Drakh Raiders are HIDEOUS (because they can't CBD). That's something you want to take care of, immediatmente.
On the beams one solution to get them a bit more reliable and still a bit exiting would be to have all 1-2 miss, 3-4 hit and 5-6 a hit and reroll.
Although I don't really like the beams always hitting on a fixed number disregarding hull-value. It were better before when they were SAP as it wouldn't feel completly worthless fielding EA Crusade (with their higher Interceptors and better hull) instead of EA Early as I prefere now.
Although I don't really like the beams always hitting on a fixed number disregarding hull-value. It were better before when they were SAP as it wouldn't feel completly worthless fielding EA Crusade (with their higher Interceptors and better hull) instead of EA Early as I prefere now.
They way we used CAF was the 1st round of AD got to be rerolled after that it was normal rollin!!
We seem to have driffted off topic what i was complaining about was the VP for fighters being way too expensive for brought flights!
Every fleet bar Drakh and Vorlon have ships with fightres in, and theDrakh can get fightres from Raider ships meanin still no VP's given away from fighters in ship, but the Vorlon are still stuck with having to buy fighters even for their high lvl ships!!
And remember the Vorlon fighters only get AF in the 1st round of dog fight so if they don't kill the other fighter straight off they're usually gone!!
We seem to have driffted off topic what i was complaining about was the VP for fighters being way too expensive for brought flights!
Every fleet bar Drakh and Vorlon have ships with fightres in, and theDrakh can get fightres from Raider ships meanin still no VP's given away from fighters in ship, but the Vorlon are still stuck with having to buy fighters even for their high lvl ships!!
And remember the Vorlon fighters only get AF in the 1st round of dog fight so if they don't kill the other fighter straight off they're usually gone!!
Vorlons are an excellent fleet and their fighter swarms can be extremely powerful hence their cost. You mentioned Shadow fighters - of course you get 3 VF for every 2 Shadow Fighters - I supose we do get 2 if I take a War level ship but unlike most races we can't send them on detached duty from their mother ship........(no carrier trait)
The Vorlon ships are plenty good enough as they are - having played them on a number of occassions with various races. What they (and the Shadows) need is a few more choice (esp raid lvl) including IMHO a Carrier and / or a Scout. Of course I still argue the Shadows need the same as well (esp skirmish choice) as proper fighters. It seems at least some of this are rumoured for P+P (raid lvl Vorlon, better Sh Fighters).
re VP for fighters - I do feel it should be on a per Wing basis as thats how they are bought and valued and not individually - your VF may or may not be worth 1 VP but I am very sure a Kotha is not.
re CAF - I am in favour of Shadow Scouts being allowed to use this 8)
On the subject of editions I far prefer 2nd Ed
in general.
The Vorlon ships are plenty good enough as they are - having played them on a number of occassions with various races. What they (and the Shadows) need is a few more choice (esp raid lvl) including IMHO a Carrier and / or a Scout. Of course I still argue the Shadows need the same as well (esp skirmish choice) as proper fighters. It seems at least some of this are rumoured for P+P (raid lvl Vorlon, better Sh Fighters).
re VP for fighters - I do feel it should be on a per Wing basis as thats how they are bought and valued and not individually - your VF may or may not be worth 1 VP but I am very sure a Kotha is not.
re CAF - I am in favour of Shadow Scouts being allowed to use this 8)
On the subject of editions I far prefer 2nd Ed
in general.Grunvald said:
most races also can't buy a self repairing behemoth with a beam of death, but we ain't whining and bitching about it. Brakiri have no precise weapons, they also do not have any patrol choices apart from fighters, none of which are as good as a vorlon fighter, if you don't like fighters giving away VP, don't field them, it's a simple solution. It seems your campaign group has already made some pretty big concessions to you, if you are still loosing, maybe call it a day and pick a new fleet. you don't see all the other vorlons on here complaining.
as to only getting AF in the first round of a dogfight, well wah!, you know what AF my Frazi get? none, you know the dogfight score on a frazi? zero, you know how many beams a frazi packs, none. you understanding this yet? now then. as to VP for bought flights, if you actually read what people have put isnstead of feeling sorry for yourself, they agree. VP's for bought flights is not right. If that was all you had issue with, then why are you harping on and on still, people agree, yay!
And I assure you, I have never in my life launched a fighter from a Drakh Raider, never, probably because they don't have them. do you want to know how much VP's "free" drakh raiders give away? or "free" war cruisers even. .
Clanger
Mongoose
I think the Vorlons are very very good. They area excellent campaign fleet to have. My very 1st campaign and introduction to CTA was with the Vorlons. And guess what....I won It was due to the open ended Beamie Goodness they could dish out and my good rolling.
The Vorlon ships are tough to take down. Their weapons are good, anything with Precise is good. The Volron Fighters I think rock. They have AAF and a precise beam at 3" range. These little squids are a bane of other fleets lives. Also other fleets will be concentrating on these little fellas instead of your other ships.
The only thing I think that Vorlons suffer from is no Other Duties in campaigns (same as Shadows). As these are ancient master manipulators they should have one. Also the other being no carried fighters.
I think VPs for fighters should be "per wing". As I understand it carried fighters are already factored into the "cost" of the ship.
The Vorlon ships are tough to take down. Their weapons are good, anything with Precise is good. The Volron Fighters I think rock. They have AAF and a precise beam at 3" range. These little squids are a bane of other fleets lives. Also other fleets will be concentrating on these little fellas instead of your other ships.
The only thing I think that Vorlons suffer from is no Other Duties in campaigns (same as Shadows). As these are ancient master manipulators they should have one. Also the other being no carried fighters.
I think VPs for fighters should be "per wing". As I understand it carried fighters are already factored into the "cost" of the ship.
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