RuneQuest Pirates question about cinematic play

[daddystabz]

My local Mongoose RuneQuest II group is getting ready to begin a new campaign using the RuneQuest Pirates book. It will be set in the Caribbean but heavily styled after the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, with its cinematic swashbuckling.

However, the GM has decided he wants to have us start out relatively weak by enacting a house rule that no skill can be above 60%. This seriously bothers me because it seems if you are going to play a PotC type game with over the top action, then putting house ruled limits on skills in order to nerf character effectiveness runs counter to the supposed theme of the campaign. How cinematic is it when I will fail when attempting to swing on the chandelier 40% of the time?

Does anyone else see a potential issue here in that there is conflicting themes? We are supposed to be playing a cinematic swashbuckling campaign but then adding house rules that artificially limit how well we can actually do that, more suited to Horatio Hornblower rather than PotC?

 

[tarkhan bey]

Yeah, I can certainly see your point that the GM seems to be sabotaging the intended style of his own game.
In order to emphasize a more cinematic style of play, I allow Hero Points to be spent. That way a Hero point allows an automatic success, two hero points can also push it to a critical success. I also tend to award quite a few hero points per game session to facilitate this.

 

[daddystabz]

Yeah, if he wants to limit how fast characters grow and become more powerful then why not just limit how much exp is awarded? That seems to me to be a better solution, given the feeling we were trying to achieve with the campaign.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[sdavies2720]

As a counter voice, there is an element of humor and fun in the movies that incorporates periodic fails. I don't think a 60% starting skill rate necessarily kills the tone.

But the goal should be having fun. If the players find the limit kills their fun, then I'm with you that it should go.

Steve

 

[Mytholder]

It depends on how the failure's described. If it's 'you screw up, and don't succeed in what you were trying to do', then that's lame. If it's done as 'you're awesome, but some external force stops you succeeding and makes the peril bigger', it can work.

So, you've got a 60% chance of swinging heroically on the chandelier, and a 40% chance of being stopped in your swing when the evil zombie monkey leaps onto the chandelier and you've got to fight it when swinging back and forth over the tavern full of cutthroats.

 

[DamonJynx]

If you're all starting out as 'newbie' pirates the skill limitation can work, providing adversaries and other situations are scaled accordingly. Though, I must admit I'm not a big fan of such arbitrary limitations. As Tarkhan Bey said, the use of hero points could and should feature heavily in that style of game - which fits the theme perfectly. There are many situations in the movies where the characters just manage to get out of the shit - if that was in a game, I'd say it was through judicious burning of HP's!

 

[Dan True]

Or perhaps he wants to let you start weak, so as to when you do get good and can become heroic like the movies, you really enjoy it. So, to stick to the theme, you don't start off as jack Sparrow or Mr. Turner, but instead as those two pirates where one has a glass eye. One day you will become Sparrow though.

However, I'm not sure I agree with the method though. But he's your dm. You should be able to talk to him about it, but perhaps he has a larger plan or has thought it through.

- Dan

 

[soltakss]

Restricting skills on startup is reasonable to me. Allowing open-ended skills means that someone will be a master fencer or master shot and that will unbalance the game.

If everyone starts with Acrobatics 90% then the game will be boring, to a certain extent.

As to the failing 40% of the time, it depends what you are doing. As a pirate, you could argue that you are used to boarding a vessel by swinging on a rope, so this should be Easy, giving you a bonus. However, jumping up to a chandelier and swinging to escape a squad of soldiers might be a normal or even Difficult roll.

If I GMed such a campaign, I would grant Cinema Points (CPs) in addition to Hero Points. These CPs are used like Hero Points but only when the character is trying to do something cinematic or flashy, like jumping from the yardarm and landing on a spar. That way, you could be cinematic and flashy without wasting Hero Points on special effects.

 

[daddystabz]

But the RAW (rules as written) in the MRQII core rulebook simply wouldn't allow for characters to have 90% skill bonuses on tons of skills rut out of the blocks? I fail to see how the RAW character creation is sufficient for gritty fantasy, bordering on swords & sorcery brutality yet needs to be toned DOWN for over the top cinematic swashbuckling action???

This seems illogical to me.

 

[DamonJynx]

But the RAW (rules as written) in the MRQII core rulebook simply wouldn't allow for characters to have 90% skill bonuses on tons of skills rut out of the blocks? I fail to see how the RAW character creation is sufficient for gritty fantasy, bordering on swords & sorcery brutality yet needs to be toned DOWN for over the top cinematic swashbuckling action???

This seems illogical to me.

No they wouldn't, but it wouldn't take long for them to get up there. A character with STR 14 and DEX 12 has a basic melee combat skill of 26, add 10 from culture, 10 from profession and 30 free skill points and your up to 76% straight off the bat. Probably need less than 6 IR's to get it over 90%, less with training. Bear in mind you can only increase a maximum of 8 skills with the 30 free skill point limitation, but canny players will ensure they are the ones that matter and get bonus' from culture and profession.

I'm not agreeing with your GM, just saying that it doesn't take that long to get really high skills. Personally, I'd rather let you develop your characters however and just scale encounters accordingly. That way there's a lot less friction.

 

[daddystabz]

It should be noted that the GM does not follow exp advancement rules per RAW either. He gives us exp less than half as often as the book suggests.

Also, according to what the GM wants to do with this game we would be capped to no skills above 60% at character creation so given this limitation and the very slow house ruled pace in which he gives out exp we will suck for a long time.

 

[DamonJynx]

It should be noted that the GM does not follow exp advancement rules per RAW either. He gives us exp less than half as often as the book suggests.

Also, according to what the GM wants to do with this game we would be capped to no skills above 60% at character creation so given this limitation and the very slow house ruled pace in which he gives out exp we will suck for a long time.

Don't take this post the wrong way, but do the other players feel the same way as you about how the GM runs the game? If they do, I think you all really need to talk to your GM and find out why he's imposing these limitations and if there is someway in which you could compromise so everyone is happy. Otherwise your group may implode. If it's only you feeling this way, perhaps you could put your...frustration, disappointment, aside for the benefit of the group or perhaps find another group that plays the kind of game you like.

 

[soltakss]

Capping skills at 60% is not unreasonable.

Slow improvement is not unreasonable.

Your expectations are perhaps a little too high.

In RuneQuest, not everybody succeeds at everything all of the time. It takes many years of gameplay to get to that level.

Having lower skills doesn't mean that your character can't do anything. If you have Athletics 60% then that is quite a high skill. You don't succeed in every Athletics task but, with the use of Hero Points, you could succeed in most of them. Even if you fail, then what happens? You swing from a chandelier and hit the wall, you jump from a sail and cling to the rigging rather than landing on a spar - neither of these is going to kill your character.

Have you actually played in the game yet? It might be that your expectations of disappointment will not match the actual game itself. My guess is that once you start playing then you will see that the ssytem works with lower skills.

 

[PhilHibbs]

...you don't start off as jack Sparrow or Mr. Turner, but instead as those two pirates where one has a glass eye. One day you will become Sparrow though.

Jack Sparrow wasn't a great swashbuckling pirate in the first film.

 

[PhilHibbs]

A character with STR 14 and DEX 12 has a basic melee combat skill of 26, add 10 from culture, 10 from profession and 30 free skill points and your up to 76% straight off the bat. Probably need less than 6 IR's to get it over 90%, less with training.

6 IRs is slightly optimistic. Each IR is worth on average less than +2 at that level, assuming an average INT, and it only goes down as skill goes up. 6 IRs are, in fact, worth an average final result of 86.85%. It would take 8 IRs to get to 90, and 7 more to get to 100. That's quite a lot, if you only allow one IR per skill per adventure, and there are always lower skills to spend them on that give a higher return on the investment. Very few IRs have been spent on anyone's highest skills in my game.

Those 8 IRs would get a skill from 40 up to 60.

 

[PhilHibbs]

It should be noted that the GM does not follow exp advancement rules per RAW either. He gives us exp less than half as often as the book suggests.

Also, according to what the GM wants to do with this game we would be capped to no skills above 60% at character creation so given this limitation and the very slow house ruled pace in which he gives out exp we will suck for a long time.

So tell him you'd rather have more fun.

 

[michaelsbagley]

As the GM in question (sorry not spying, I logged on here looking for advice on meshing the MRQI Pirates with the MRQII rules, specially on cultural backgrounds, which are more plentiful in MRQI than MRQII)....

My intent with the skill cap was not to be an Ogre or limiting, but to give the characters a slightly humble origin to work up from. Although I am fastly becoming a hug fan of the RQ rules... I find it a bit too easy to start "new" characters at what seems to me as "mid to high-level" strength (drawing comparisons to other game systems). Sure, it is an adjustment to the new rules on my part as well... But I saw something that while by the rules, just seemed "broken" to me (a beginning character with an over 90% skill), and this limit is a direct response to that.

From the RAW, it states that 30% is a below average human skill, 40% to 50% is average and 60% is above average.... Would a beginning character really be SOooo exceptional as to have a mastery level skill(s) just starting out? Does starting out above average with the ability to work ones way UP TO mastery really seem so bad? Now while it is difficult to start a character with a 80 to 90 percent level, it is possible... Where does such a character have left to go except to "Epic" level play?

Even with a more cinematic style of play, I don't feel I am off base trying to start characters off as "above average" and work their way up to mastery (and eventually to Epic). One key point that has not been mentioned here, is that it was pointed out to me that I had been a little stingy on advancement, and that in response I had blatantly stated I agreed with that, and would be more generous with that in this new campaign.

 

[soltakss]

As the GM in question (sorry not spying, I logged on here looking for advice on meshing the MRQI Pirates with the MRQII rules, specially on cultural backgrounds, which are more plentiful in MRQI than MRQII)....

I'd make up your own backgrounds, if I were you. The Backgrounds in the Pirates book are OK, but they are focussed on your typical pirate character. Backgrounds are easy to write up, anyway.

My intent with the skill cap was not to be an Ogre or limiting, but to give the characters a slightly humble origin to work up from. Although I am fastly becoming a hug fan of the RQ rules... I find it a bit too easy to start "new" characters at what seems to me as "mid to high-level" strength (drawing comparisons to other game systems). Sure, it is an adjustment to the new rules on my part as well... But I saw something that while by the rules, just seemed "broken" to me (a beginning character with an over 90% skill), and this limit is a direct response to that.

I agree completely - some of the best campaigns I have played in started with no previous experience at all.

From the RAW, it states that 30% is a below average human skill, 40% to 50% is average and 60% is above average.... Would a beginning character really be SOooo exceptional as to have a mastery level skill(s) just starting out? Does starting out above average with the ability to work ones way UP TO mastery really seem so bad? Now while it is difficult to start a character with a 80 to 90 percent level, it is possible... Where does such a character have left to go except to "Epic" level play?

You don't need 90% in your skills to be productive. That's a mistake many people new to RQ make. With a 60% skill limit, many Easy tasks are achievable most of the time.

Even with a more cinematic style of play, I don't feel I am off base trying to start characters off as "above average" and work their way up to mastery (and eventually to Epic). One key point that has not been mentioned here, is that it was pointed out to me that I had been a little stingy on advancement, and that in response I had blatantly stated I agreed with that, and would be more generous with that in this new campaign.

Wasn't that mentioned? I'm sure that it says somewhere that the GM was awarding below-RAW experience. Funny that ...

Stick to your guns and use the 60% cap - it will work and is playable. I'd give out more Hero Points to use for cinematic play. You could even give out Hero points as rewards for cinematic actions - the more heroic the characters are the more heroic they can be.

 

[DamonJynx]

A character with STR 14 and DEX 12 has a basic melee combat skill of 26, add 10 from culture, 10 from profession and 30 free skill points and your up to 76% straight off the bat. Probably need less than 6 IR's to get it over 90%, less with training.

6 IRs is slightly optimistic. Each IR is worth on average less than +2 at that level, assuming an average INT, and it only goes down as skill goes up. 6 IRs are, in fact, worth an average final result of 86.85%. It would take 8 IRs to get to 90, and 7 more to get to 100. That's quite a lot, if you only allow one IR per skill per adventure, and there are always lower skills to spend them on that give a higher return on the investment. Very few IRs have been spent on anyone's highest skills in my game.

Those 8 IRs would get a skill from 40 up to 60.

I wasn't trying to be mathematically correct, just illustrating that it doesn't really take that long to advance skills. I used the combat skill as a fairly straight forward example. If you give out an average of 3 IR's as recommended on pg 49 of the core rules it would take less than 12 sessions of play. At least it does in my game, as I tend to give out IR's every other session - which generally include natural pauses or the accomplishment of goals in the game as suggested. Other GM's will differ in their frequency, just as their campaigns differ.

 

[PhilHibbs]

6 IRs is slightly optimistic...

I wasn't trying to be mathematically correct, just illustrating that it doesn't really take that long to advance skills.

6 scenarios is quite a long time, bearing in mind it only took two scenarios for Jack Sparrow to go from talented bluffer to superhero. Although if you give IRs per session and allow them to be spent right away then those 6 IRs could come in two or three scenarios. But not all campaigns last that long, for various reasons, I like to let players have maximum fun and explore the repertoire of the game system fairly quickly.

My intent with the skill cap was not to be an Ogre or limiting, but to give the characters a slightly humble origin to work up from.

Bear in mind that the word "humble" is the root word of "humiliation", and it can come over that way even if that's not your intention. A generous Improvement Roll and Hero Point regime will help a lot.