Runequest/Legends Newb with questions...

[BluSponge]

Well not entirely a newb. I have fond memories of Chaosium's Elric! game (Stormbringer 4), though we never played much. The whole Runequest > Legends transition has my attention though and that fantasy itch is starting up again. I have a few questions though.

1) One thing I've never liked about Runequest was the whole hit locations thing. In fact, I'm not really a fan of hit locations in any game. You can thank Kult for that. Now Elric!, which essentially used the Runequest/BRP system, did not use hit locations. How difficult is it to divorce them from the game as a whole?

2) I've read a few threads on the RQ magic system and some of the comments suggest it is very grounded in Glorantha. So here's a question for those of you who homebrew your setting. Do you use the magic system as is? If not, how do you revamp it? Assuming the Spell Catalog from MGRQ1 is compatible with RQII, how difficult is it to mold the magic system to the setting?

3) Has anyone worked out a system for using static defense and armor values in combat, particularly for non-important combatants (mooks)?

Thanks,
Tom

 

[Dan True]

1) One thing I've never liked about Runequest was the whole hit locations thing. In fact, I'm not really a fan of hit locations in any game. You can thank Kult for that. Now Elric!, which essentially used the Runequest/BRP system, did not use hit locations. How difficult is it to divorce them from the game as a whole?

What is it you don't like about hit locations? Not that I'm questioning your take on the game, but without knowing what it is you don't like, it's not that easy to suggest an alternative.

You could just smash all locations together and then work out a new hp table so that people only have one location. Some combat manoeuvres should then also be reworked to fit - and it breaks the serious wound / major wound rules also.

Although I believe this would make for a much less fun game to play. The whole fantastical thing about the RQ/Legend combat system is that combat is to cinematic, that you often remember the fight-effect instead of the dice rolls. Removing hit locations could really smash that, in my opinion.

2) I've read a few threads on the RQ magic system and some of the comments suggest it is very grounded in Glorantha. So here's a question for those of you who homebrew your setting. Do you use the magic system as is? If not, how do you revamp it? Assuming the Spell Catalog from MGRQ1 is compatible with RQII, how difficult is it to mold the magic system to the setting?

Legend will be completely separated from Glorantha - but I do not know if this means that some spells will be reworked towards a more generic setting... but I don't think so.
I'm playing Eberron in RQ/Legend and I am using the magic system as it is - except I've removed some spells (sorcery healing, hard cult restrictions on amplify and extension divine spells) and given sorcery a penalty for wearing armour. I don't use Spirit Magic.

3) Has anyone worked out a system for using static defense and armor values in combat, particularly for non-important combatants (mooks)?

Not that I know of ... but then again I haven't looked - as I hate static defense.
For non-combatants I simply don't require dice rolls to hit. If they're gonna hit the defenseless and panicked peasant standing in the corner - then I simply describe the effect, not a too-hit roll against a man flailing his arms.

But Your Runequest Will Vary

- Dan

 

[danskmacabre]

Actually you can easily use no hit locations in MRQ2/Legend/Elric.
There's a section in the combat rules (in the MRQ2/Legend core rules) about using no hit locations.
It's designed to speed up combat when using NPCs. but there's no reason why you couldn't use it for Player Characters.

 

[BluSponge]

What is it you don't like about hit locations? Not that I'm questioning your take on the game, but without knowing what it is you don't like, it's not that easy to suggest an alternative.

In Kult, they got extremely repetitive, usually targeting the left arm, IIRC. it was a weird location and not the abdomen/torso like one might expect. So in the end it became a running joke.

Not that I know of ... but then again I haven't looked - as I hate static defense.

This isn't for non-combatants, just nameless rabble that gets thrown against the PCs by the horde. Having to make that many counter rolls just slows things down, IMNSHO. it's a mechanism I would prefer to keep for the big baddies, sure. But when faced with a brute squad I like them to go down quick and maybe do a little damage before they do.

Tom

 

[Dan True]

In Kult, they got extremely repetitive, usually targeting the left arm, IIRC. it was a weird location and not the abdomen/torso like one might expect. So in the end it became a running joke.

Okay. I don't find them repetitive in MRQ2, but quite interesting. They offer up a lot of flexibility in my games at least.

This isn't for non-combatants, just nameless rabble that gets thrown against the PCs by the horde. Having to make that many counter rolls just slows things down, IMNSHO. it's a mechanism I would prefer to keep for the big baddies, sure. But when faced with a brute squad I like them to go down quick and maybe do a little damage before they do.

Ah, there are rules for these in the combat chapter. You calculate some general hp for each mook and then simply use those. They still use hit locations with regards to armour (but since mooks rarely have much, its no big deal) and active defense though. But you could easily say that you should simply succeed on your attack roll to hit them (i.e. they never defend), perhaps give the players a penalty to the attack roll. But again, I don't find that rolling that dice at the same time the player rolls his, to be much trouble.

-Dan

 

[BluSponge]

Okay. I don't find them repetitive in MRQ2, but quite interesting. They offer up a lot of flexibility in my games at least.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I'm just going from my own experience here, which hasn't been kind to hit locations.

Ah, there are rules for these in the combat chapter. You calculate some general hp for each mook and then simply use those. They still use hit locations with regards to armour (but since mooks rarely have much, its no big deal) and active defense though. But you could easily say that you should simply succeed on your attack roll to hit them (i.e. they never defend), perhaps give the players a penalty to the attack roll. But again, I don't find that rolling that dice at the same time the player rolls his, to be much trouble.

AHA! And they exactly match the old Elric! rules. Perfect. It's good to see these options.

Looking things over, it doesn't look like a "static defense" mechanic would be difficult to implement. It's just about finding the right formula. With all the variations that Mongoose (and others?) have been spooling out for RQ, I was hoping someone would have done the work for me by now. I don't mind the whole Attack vs. Parry thing, but years of 7th Sea spoiled me on mob rules. RQ's mechanics don't really allow for a direct comparison, but the idea of having to do a lot of rolling when dealing with a horde of mooks just seems counterproductive. I'd rather save those for the big bads, that's all. It does look like RQ has gotten rid of some of the counter dice rolling that was present throughout Elric! though.

Tom

 

[Mixster]

What is it you don't like about hit locations? Not that I'm questioning your take on the game, but without knowing what it is you don't like, it's not that easy to suggest an alternative.

In Kult, they got extremely repetitive, usually targeting the left arm, IIRC. it was a weird location and not the abdomen/torso like one might expect. So in the end it became a running joke.

Hmm, there is a big problem with the randomly hitting one location in the first hit, and then keep targeting that location, because if you've caused your opponent to bleed profusely from his left leg, only causing more damage to that left leg will help kill him. A guy who has a broken left leg can easily have his other leg, and both his arms get broken before he goes down, as opposed to the guy who has a mangled left leg who goes down instantly. This is a bit silly IMO. But it works without overcomplicating things. You could introduce a general HP or give people fatigue points for suffering injuries if you were mean enough.

AHA! And they exactly match the old Elric! rules. Perfect. It's good to see these options.

Looking things over, it doesn't look like a "static defense" mechanic would be difficult to implement. It's just about finding the right formula. With all the variations that Mongoose (and others?) have been spooling out for RQ, I was hoping someone would have done the work for me by now. I don't mind the whole Attack vs. Parry thing, but years of 7th Sea spoiled me on mob rules. RQ's mechanics don't really allow for a direct comparison, but the idea of having to do a lot of rolling when dealing with a horde of mooks just seems counterproductive. I'd rather save those for the big bads, that's all. It does look like RQ has gotten rid of some of the counter dice rolling that was present throughout Elric! though.

Hmm, perhaps the mook detracting Crit Score (that is 10 %) of it combat style from an opponents attack. Perhaps have it be 2 or 3 times crit score.
Or you could make sure all mooks have sufficiently low combat skills, like 20 or 30% and then just have them negate all attacks that aren't crits that roll below their combat skill to hit. IE, they have a low score, but they always roll max without critting when defending.
These guys, Off Course, shouldn't get any defensive CMs. And shouldn't waste a CA to parry if the opponent missed.

On the whole magic thing.
I've been thinking this exact same thing. The magic system seems quite nice, but it does draw on a lot of old RP tropes and problems that might not be suited for every world, like magic being dangerous to the user is mostly a non-issue in Legend, and the Wizards Run out of Juice, approach is also not appropriate for everyone. I've been thinking of a few ways to fix this. Although I need to bring it to paper before I can really express it as it should be.

 

[BluSponge]

Hmm, perhaps the mook detracting Crit Score (that is 10 %) of it combat style from an opponents attack. Perhaps have it be 2 or 3 times crit score.
Or you could make sure all mooks have sufficiently low combat skills, like 20 or 30% and then just have them negate all attacks that aren't crits that roll below their combat skill to hit. IE, they have a low score, but they always roll max without critting when defending.
These guys, Off Course, shouldn't get any defensive CMs. And shouldn't waste a CA to parry if the opponent missed.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. I wanted something more flexible though, and this is what I came up with (keep in mind, I haven't played Elric! more than twice in 20 years, so take it for what it is):

Defensive Stances:
The Attacker must roll between the opponent's Defense score and their skill rating. Basically, it works a lot like Poison potency.

There are four stances:
Standard Defense: (DEX+POW)/2
Full Defense: (DEX+POW)x2 (Defender may take no offensive actions while using this stance)
Defensive Stance: (DEX+POW) (Defender's Close Combat Score is reduced by X%)
Aggressive Stance: (DEX+POW)/4 (Defender's Close Combat Score receives a bonus of X%)

The character's stance is selected at the beginning of each round. A CA must be spent to change it during the round.

Anyway, something like that.

Tom

 

[Dan True]

Hm, I'm surprised that you wish these rules for Elric. The system, especially in Elric where there is no magical healing, really does not lay itself to battles where you hack through a multitude of mooks.

Unless your adventurers are very powerful, or they use magic extensively then ordinary warriors will be a challenge for them if they are just 1-2 more of them.

Not that you shouldn't if you want. If you enjoy watching the characters hack through 20 mooks, then go for it. I'm just saying that unless it's your goal, I don't think you will need the them in Elric.

- Dan

 

[Mixster]

Defensive Stances:
The Attacker must roll between the opponent's Defense score and their skill rating. Basically, it works a lot like Poison potency.

There are four stances:
Standard Defense: (DEX+POW)/2
Full Defense: (DEX+POW)x2 (Defender may take no offensive actions while using this stance)
Defensive Stance: (DEX+POW) (Defender's Close Combat Score is reduced by X%)
Aggressive Stance: (DEX+POW)/4 (Defender's Close Combat Score receives a bonus of X%)

The character's stance is selected at the beginning of each round. A CA must be spent to change it during the round.
Tom

I like it, simple, and catches the feel of it.

Why do you base it off POW though? Why not Strength like combat styles are?

The X% I'd set at about 20% halving your defense should give you about that extra offense. And the same with Defensive stance.

Remember that critical should still hit, or this would be too good.

 

[BluSponge]

I like it, simple, and catches the feel of it.

Why do you base it off POW though? Why not Strength like combat styles are?

Because POW reflects confidence and swagger. Part of the whole defense thing is mental, anticipating your opponent's moves and maybe not a little intimidation. Folks who get too cocky or lose their cool tend to let their guard down at the wrong time. DEX+POW seemed to be a good way to reflect that.

The X% I'd set at about 20% halving your defense should give you about that extra offense. And the same with Defensive stance.

That works for me.

[/quote]Remember that critical should still hit, or this would be too good.[/quote]

Oh, absolutely. Those rules still apply. This just fills in the middle ground.

Tom

 

[BluSponge]

Hm, I'm surprised that you wish these rules for Elric. The system, especially in Elric where there is no magical healing, really does not lay itself to battles where you hack through a multitude of mooks.

i'm only using Elric as a point of reference. My tastes in games generally run much more cinematic. However, after nearly eight years of Savage Worlds, I'm feeling a bit of wanderlust and might like to try something new. But, like I said, 7th Sea spoiled me in a lot of ways. I can't imagine running a game without mook and chase rules anymore.

My tastes in fantasy RPGs these days lies somewhere between Conan brand sword and sorcery and Greyhawk style mid-low fantasy. And carving a bloody swath through a horde of rabble works well for both of those.

Tom

 

[Dan True]

i'm only using Elric as a point of reference. My tastes in games generally run much more cinematic. However, after nearly eight years of Savage Worlds, I'm feeling a bit of wanderlust and might like to try something new. But, like I said, 7th Sea spoiled me in a lot of ways. I can't imagine running a game without mook and chase rules anymore.

My tastes in fantasy RPGs these days lies somewhere between Conan brand sword and sorcery and Greyhawk style mid-low fantasy. And carving a bloody swath through a horde of rabble works well for both of those.

Tom

Ah, that makes sense

 

[Mixster]

Do note that with enhance Dex+Pow one could buff his minions to quite remarkable levels. If they are normally at 15 in each, they'd be at 60 when fighting defensively. Which is quite good IMO. They would be a pain to hit.

But if they still need to spend a CA when they are attacked this matters little as someone who had his combat style buffed in the same way would be equally awesome.

 

[BluSponge]

Do note that with enhance Dex+Pow one could buff his minions to quite remarkable levels. If they are normally at 15 in each, they'd be at 60 when fighting defensively. Which is quite good IMO. They would be a pain to hit.

Well that requires a level of rules familiarity that I honestly just don't have right now. I suppose you could put a limit on it.

But if they still need to spend a CA when they are attacked this matters little as someone who had his combat style buffed in the same way would be equally awesome.

That wasn't my plan. You simply pick a defense stance and go. It's considered always on. The idea is to give a static defense as opposed to needing the parry counter roll. A CA would be required to change stances in mid-turn.

Tom

 

[Da Boss]

I tend to play the cinematic style game myself and if you interested apapted the rules to fit that a bit more here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?t7cthdspf3gsskd

Sorry the one bleow originally posted was the old version (new one above)
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?1n68czxtzyc66pf

it is a bit of a miss mash between the older systems and the new RQII / Legend but there may well be bits of use to you