Rune Integration always necessary?

[RosenMcStern]

Frogspawner, if you were referring to my comment about Divine and Spirit Magic in your post, then I disagree.

"Generally accepted Glorantha" (a concept that has been criticized by Greg in the Glorantha list) is different from "the way the RQ3 rules treated it".

My intent was showing that if the result you want to obtain is that Initiates can do some magic and Rune Levels can do a lot more magic, then MRQ succeds in this. It's just that now it is Divine Magic that handles lower level spells. HeroQuest does something similar (Affinities = lesser magic, Feats = greater magic). Personally, I am happy with both approaches, and these are one of the few areas where I think that MRQ and HQ fare better than RQ3.

 

[gamesmeister]

It's just that now it is Divine Magic that handles lower level spells.

And yet that can't be true, because the MRQ rules explicitly state that Divine Magic is more powerful than Rune Magic, and use rules mechanisms to back up that approach.

 

[RosenMcStern]

It's just that now it is Divine Magic that handles lower level spells.

And yet that can't be true, because the MRQ rules explicitly state that Divine Magic is more powerful than Rune Magic, and use rules mechanisms to back up that approach.

That statement is just a legacy of RQ3. If you look at the spell, most divine spells were nerfed, while Rune Magic was improved. Look at Heal versus Heal Wound/Body. Heal can even reattach limbs and purge poison. Heal Wound negates the worst effects but leaves the location injured. Heal body is a pale shadow of what it used to be. Shield effect was halved. Truesword now costs 3 POW. Etc. etc.

You can ignore the statement about Divine Magic as "higher level" magic. It is just not the truth. A powerful priest can have 10 pts. Divine Magic and unlimited magnitude of Rune Magic. What sort of magic do you think he will rely on to stay alive?

 

[frogspawner]

For one thing the "generally accepted" version of Glorantha isn't. HeroQuest sort of blew the generally accepted version of Glorantha out of the water.

Plus, if you are going to eliminate the abnormalities, you would probably end up with RQ2 or RQ3 by the time you ironed out everything.

Sorry but there is a generally accepted Glorantha - it's just a question of how low is the lowest-common-denominator. We could debate what's in it, but I can't be bothered. Suffice to say I think Battle Magic (RQ3 'spirit magic', MRQ 'rune magic') being for low levels, and Rune Magic (RQ3/MRQ 'divine magic') being for high levels, is sufficiently well-established in previous explorations of Glorantha to be part of the GAG.
RQ2/3 were pretty close to a perfect system - closer than MRQ. But there are some things they could adopt/adapt from it (e.g. Initiative not Strike Ranks; either Location or Overall HPs not both; Rune-related crystals...).

Frogspawner, if you were referring to my comment about Divine and Spirit Magic in your post, then I disagree.

Yes I was. And, yes, I'm sure you do. But what do other people think about MRQ's swapping the roles of these two types of magic? Wouldn't it be best to avoid confusion by remaining consistent with RQ2/3?

"Generally accepted Glorantha" (a concept that has been criticized by Greg in the Glorantha list) is different from "the way the RQ3 rules treated it".

I know perfectly well that GAG is not about rules, it's about the world. But this 'magic-flipping' thing goes beyond rules and affects Glorantha as the characters would know it. (And yes, I expect Greg would criticize the GAG concept, because it seeks to limit his ability to invent/change and sell whatever he pleases...)

 

[RosenMcStern]

Sorry but there is a generally accepted Glorantha - it's just a question of how low is the lowest-common-denominator. We could debate what's in it, but I can't be bothered.

Suffice to say I think Battle Magic (RQ3 'spirit magic', MRQ 'rune magic') being for low levels, and Rune Magic (RQ3/MRQ 'divine magic') being for high levels, is sufficiently well-established in previous explorations of Glorantha to be part of the GAG.

This implies that GAG is about how rules handle magic, and not about what magic is in Glorantha. GAG, if it exists, is not about rules, it is about concepts.

RQ2/3 were pretty close to a perfect system - closer than MRQ.

Hmm, I still like RQ3 better than MRQ, but close to perfect is too big a word.

But what do other people think about MRQ's swapping the roles of these two types of magic?

I hope they will state it in the forum

Wouldn't it be best to avoid confusion by remaining consistent with RQ2/3?

Again, the right way is to remain consistent with the setting, not with the rules.

I know perfectly well that GAG is not about rules, it's about the world. But this 'magic-flipping' thing goes beyond rules and affects Glorantha as the characters would know it.

I think this is simply not true. A character knows he can do, say, Death magic if he is a Humakti and Healing magic if she is an Ernaldan. Whether this is called Heal or Heal Body or Treat Wound Feat is just about rule mechanics, not the essence of Glorantha. You could just use the rules for D&D Paladins shock, whether or not your priestess fits in GAG depends on how you roleplay her.

Caveat for newbies: do not even think of following my suggestion above!

(And yes, I expect Greg would criticize the GAG concept, because it seeks to limit his ability to invent/change and sell whatever he pleases...)

This is really not fair towards Greg. He is not sitting on a pile of money made selling supplements for crappy rulesets like that SJ guy.

 

[Rurik]

But what do other people think about MRQ's swapping the roles of these two types of magic?

I hope they will state it in the forum

Your wish is my command.*

I'll preface this by saying that this is all in the context of the rules as published.

I think it is safe to say Divine Magic is more readily available to Initiates than in RQ 2/3, but not necessarily more common than Rune Magic.

How common Rune Magic is determined entirely by how common runes are. Mongoose has been vague on this, but Glorantha: The Second Age does state that Rune Magic is the most common form of magic. I take this to mean that runes are common. Magic of Glorantha states that runes are one of the most common rewards for HeroQuesting, so there is a replenishable supply.

Also keep in mind that in MRQ all Divine Magic is 'one use' in that once you cast it you need to spend the time and money to replenish the spell at an appropriate location. It does not take POW to learn, but in the course of an adventure you get to cast each Divine spell once, while Rune Magic can be cast repeatedly as long as you have the MP. The rules even state you cannot learn the same divine spell twice (you cannot have Heal Body stored two or more times - not sure I like this, but it's in the RAW).

So Battle/Spirit/Rune Magic is less common, or at least harder to learn, than in RQ 2/3, and Divine Magic is more readily accessible to Initiates (which is fine really, they are theists after all), and the degree to which this is true is based on how common runes are in a given game. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the roles are reversed though.

*Not a blanket statement.

 

[zozotroll]

A big problem I am haveing with the new one use rules is cash.

The way DnD was always been written, you needed a lot of magic gear to compete. That is even more true in the current soon to be obsolete version.

I have always loved that you could have a RQ charecter that did not need to be in that DnD eternal quest for loot. Now, however, you are going to need some hefty income to keep your spell count up. So either you are in a money heavy game, or a divine poor game. I dont like that much.

Somebody, Rosen I believe but dont quote me, stated that the new way allows an initiate to be the wild man of the desert type hermit that is not a preist, but still very powerful. Unfortunetly, he cant be very wild, because he has to be doing something to get the funds to be able to afford to recharge his spells.

And yes, he cant work it off with service at the temple, but then he is not the man of the desert, but the gardener. And he certainly cant be giving the poor all the treasure he finds, he has to hock that stuff. Nor is he possesionless, he needs to lug around all them rocks so he has a bit of rune magic.

 

[RosenMcStern]

]How common Rune Magic is determined entirely by how common runes are. Mongoose has been vague on this, but Glorantha: The Second Age does state that Rune Magic is the most common form of magic. I take this to mean that runes are common.

Considering that also Animists and Draconic Mystics use the equivalent of Rune Spells, it is certainly so.

Magic of Glorantha states that runes are one of the most common rewards for HeroQuesting, so there is a replenishable supply.

Aha! I checked it and indeed, it says so! This points out two things I have been thinking of lately:

a) the number of runes can increase, especially when a cult is strong enough to support great HeroQuests; this is in contrast with your theory that runes tend to concentrate towards great temples by trading, and confirms my idea that temples do produce runes for their Rune-level cultists.

b) you go to the temple and pray, and you get Divine Magic; you go to the temple and HeroQuest, and you get Rune Magic. So which one is low magic, and which one is high magic?

Also keep in mind that in MRQ all Divine Magic is 'one use' in that once you cast it you need to spend the time and money to replenish the spell at an appropriate location. It does not take POW to learn, but in the course of an adventure you get to cast each Divine spell once, while Rune Magic can be cast repeatedly as long as you have the MP.

First of all, the "go back to the temple and repray for spells" procedure was called reusable divine magic in RQ3. So it is not true that divine magic in MRQ is one use. It is just a bit longer to relearn. But you can change spells when you repray for them (like in That Other Game).

Second, the fact that there is no limit to the Rune Magic spells that you can learn, whereas this was true of Divine Magic in RQ3, make Rune Magic more useful for high levels. Back in the days when learning Bladesharp 8 consumed most of your free INT, a clever Humakti learned Truesword to increase his lethality in battle. Now that Bladesharp consumes no Free INT, while Truesword consumes three "free POW", guess what?

The rules even state you cannot learn the same divine spell twice (you cannot have Heal Body stored two or more times - not sure I like this, but it's in the RAW).

It is a Progressive Spell now, so you can learn Heal Body 10 and cast it one or more Magnitude at a time.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the roles are reversed though.

But I would. Do not forget that Divine Magic uses one skill for casting, while Rune Magic requires more, too.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Somebody, Rosen I believe but dont quote me, stated that the new way allows an initiate to be the wild man of the desert type hermit that is not a preist, but still very powerful. Unfortunetly, he cant be very wild, because he has to be doing something to get the funds to be able to afford to recharge his spells.

So long as his hermit cave qualifies as a site, he can relearn his magic up to magnitude 2, as he is the leading priest of the temple. The "donation to the temple" represents sacrifices he makes, not necessarily cash he is giving to the priesthood.

Example: Mindaugas the Lithuanian hunts four wild goats and takes them to his family site, of which he is the keeper, where he sacrifices them to Perkunas. After two days' praying amidst the smoke of the burning sacrifices, he gains Shield 2.

Getting Shield 4 would be a matter of visiting a temple in town, instead, and donating some cows.

 

[Rurik]

Magic of Glorantha states that runes are one of the most common rewards for HeroQuesting, so there is a replenishable supply.

Aha! I checked it and indeed, it says so! This points out two things I have been thinking of lately:

a) the number of runes can increase, especially when a cult is strong enough to support great HeroQuests; this is in contrast with your theory that runes tend to concentrate towards great temples by trading, and confirms my idea that temples do produce runes for their Rune-level cultists.

b) you go to the temple and pray, and you get Divine Magic; you go to the temple and HeroQuest, and you get Rune Magic. So which one is low magic, and which one is high magic?

I don't see that runes being gained by HeroQuesting as exclusive of the 'supply and demand' idea. I mentioned both of them back in my first post on the subject. I suppose if a temple gained more runes than it needed through heroquesting they would 'flow' outward, presumably towards smaller temples or allied cults. Though really this is all just esoteric theorising, and everyone's Glorantha will vary - the point is there are reasons to support cults having access to the runes necessary for their cult rune spells should one want to use rune magic as in the RAW with Glorantha and theist cults.

Again, I don't envision every initiate getting a set of runes on initiation, just that there are enough runes that many initiates will have some and that they are available as rewards for things like performing cult missions.

Also keep in mind that in MRQ all Divine Magic is 'one use' in that once you cast it you need to spend the time and money to replenish the spell at an appropriate location. It does not take POW to learn, but in the course of an adventure you get to cast each Divine spell once, while Rune Magic can be cast repeatedly as long as you have the MP.

First of all, the "go back to the temple and repray for spells" procedure was called reusable divine magic in RQ3. So it is not true that divine magic in MRQ is one use. It is just a bit longer to relearn. But you can change spells when you repray for them (like in That Other Game).

Second, the fact that there is no limit to the Rune Magic spells that you can learn, whereas this was true of Divine Magic in RQ3, make Rune Magic more useful for high levels. Back in the days when learning Bladesharp 8 consumed most of your free INT, a clever Humakti learned Truesword to increase his lethality in battle. Now that Bladesharp consumes no Free INT, while Truesword consumes three "free POW", guess what?

I put 'one use' in quotes and mentioned that it doesn't require POW to acknowledge that it is not the same as 'one use' is used in RQ2/3. The fact remains that it can only be used once before having to pay and pray again, so in effect is one use for the scope of a typical scenario, unlike rune magic.

While there is no hard limit to the number of Rune spells you can learn it is difficult to be good at many of them beacuase each rune has it's own skill. A theist is likely to be proficient at his divine magic (it all uses one skill) but likely limited in how much rune magic he uses by his runecasting skills.

The rules even state you cannot learn the same divine spell twice (you cannot have Heal Body stored two or more times - not sure I like this, but it's in the RAW).

It is a Progressive Spell now, so you can learn Heal Body 10 and cast it one or more Magnitude at a time.

Heal Body was a bad example because you are indeed correct, it is progressive. Heal Wound, or True(weapon) or Sunspear are better examples. They cannot be stored multiple times. Once you've cast your one Sureshot you better have Speedart handy.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that the roles are reversed though.

But I would. Do not forget that Divine Magic uses one skill for casting, while Rune Magic requires more, too.

Again, a matter of degrees and each interpretation will vary. MRQ initiates have easier access to divine magic and more limited access to rune magic compared to RQ2/3, true, and priests and runelords have less access to divine magic than RQ2/3 (or are certainly limited as to how much they can learn). It is just different to me, not reversed.

Also, way back when the Companion was first release and houserules for divine pools and grace were commonplace, it was pointed out you can sacrifice permanent pow to make spellcharge enchantments, and build quite an arsenal of spell effects through 'holy artifacts' rather than learning the spells themselves.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Again, I don't envision every initiate getting a set of runes on initiation, just that there are enough runes that many initiates will have some and that they are available as rewards for things like performing cult missions.

Never denied that.

While there is no hard limit to the number of Rune spells you can learn it is difficult to be good at many of them beacuase each rune has it's own skill. A theist is likely to be proficient at his divine magic (it all uses one skill) but likely limited in how much rune magic he uses by his runecasting skills.

May I rephrase it as "A rookie (initiate) is ony proficient at casting Divine Magic, while a seasoned character (Rune level) is also proficient at casting his god's Rune Magic?".

Heal Body was a bad example because you are indeed correct, it is progressive. Heal Wound, or True(weapon) or Sunspear are better examples. They cannot be stored multiple times. Once you've cast your one Sureshot you better have Speedart handy.

I.E. Sureshot is only good for newbies who have not integrated the correct rune (yet). Rune Lords who go on Quests where they will face several encounters must use Rune Magic.

Also, way back when the Companion was first release and houserules for divine pools and grace were commonplace, it was pointed out you can sacrifice permanent pow to make spellcharge enchantments, and build quite an arsenal of spell effects through 'holy artifacts' rather than learning the spells themselves.

True. It was me who suggested it, at that time. I still prefer the Divine Pool model, but the easier rules for Enchanting in MRQ allow this strategy, too. I am not very happy about this, though. One of the parts of RQ3 I never liked was the fact that a magician without a good deal of magic items (INT Spirits, POW Spirits, etc.) was ineffective. MRQ fixed this, but unfortunately not for Divine Magic.

 

[frogspawner]

A big problem I am haveing with the new one use rules is cash.

The way DnD was always been written, you needed a lot of magic gear to compete. That is even more true in the current soon to be obsolete version.

I have always loved that you could have a RQ charecter that did not need to be in that DnD eternal quest for loot.

Good point. (And loot is loot, whether it's gold or goats!) More evidence the underlying problem is a D&D mind-set.

 

[zozotroll]

A heal 6 runespell equals 64 goats. Thats a pretty good sized herd. And not the sort of thing one would expect the possesionless monk in the desert to have.

 

[RosenMcStern]

A heal 6 runespell equals 64 goats. Thats a pretty good sized herd. And not the sort of thing one would expect the possesionless monk in the desert to have.

We were talking about Divine Magic, in fact, not Rune Magic. Rune Magic is something you are taught by another man at a temple, not something you are praying your god to give you. And Heal 6 can reattach limbs, so it is well worth 64 goats.

 

[zozotroll]

But where does this wandering man of the desert get the 64 goats? He gives all his wealth to the poor.

It was your post about this that got me going. How an initiate can be as powerful as a preist. Sounded good. Then I started looking at how he would go about this career, and it doesnt seem to work very well.

I picked heal because it can reatch limbs, and certainly is worth 64 goats. In fact, he is more likely to have higher powered runes over divine, because it is a one time only expense. Divine is a recuring expense. Other than the 1-2 points he can generate from himself. But as he can only have one copy of each, he wont have a large amount.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Nobody stated he can be as powerful as a priest. Just that he can learn some Divine Magic. Rune Magic he cannot learn, as even if he can find a rune somewhere, nobody is going to teach him the appropriate spells.

 

[B_Steele]

But where does this wandering man of the desert get the 64 goats?

It just takes a crafty Games Master. Sure, he may not have 64 goats, but what is a promise worth? What if he gives everything he can give, but it is not enough? Could he then maybe swear oaths? Or for some stranger cults, maybe a show of faith (like cutting off a finger or bringing in a specific captive).

It is all how you look at it to make it work. Like I've said before, a good Games Master can make anything work in his narrative with enough imagination.

Cheers,
Bry

 

[frogspawner]

But where does this wandering man of the desert get the 64 goats? He gives all his wealth to the poor.

If he's giving to the poor for religious reasons, maybe he should get 'Divine Credit' for it (or, rather, his player would) - and then spend the credit on divinely-granted spells. Similarly, if he gets some mercenaries/adventurers to go on some silly mission for his religion (because they want spells etc off him), shouldn't he likewise get divine credit for that, to the tune of normal merc pay?

Something like that, you mean Mr Steele?

 

[B_Steele]

See, I do think you are picking up what I'm throwing down.