Rune Integration always necessary?

[gamesmeister]

Most posters simply stated "I let cultists gain spells without integrating runes". My interpretation is that most forumers consider initiation as equivalent to rune integration. My opinion is somehow different, but the idea is the same: initiation can replace or facilitate rune integration.

Well sure, I let cultists gain spells without integrating runes too...that's a long way from saying that most GMs give runes to PCs from their temples.

I think that places of power like temples actually produce runes. Remember: Holy Grounds shift to the Hero or God Plane during High Holy Rites. This was cleary stated even in RQ3, and deeply explored in HeroQuest. And what better opportunity to have some Rune move from the God Plane to the Mundane Plane than when the borders between the two vanish?

It's true that's a possibility, and in fact new initiates briefly enter the hero plane during their initiation rites too, so maybe they integrate a rune during that time. However, having to integrate 4-5 runes before you can cast all your cult spells just doesn't make sense. Not least because instead of practicing worship of your chosen god or goddess (in game terms, increasing your Theology skill), you'll be spending all your time learning 4-5 different runecasting skills instead.

 

[Rurik]

I use the little buggers as is and don't really have a problem with them. My take is that they are pretty common (Rune Magic is often described as being common, so runes must be too).

Temples tend to have the runes that apply to their god and the spells associated with that god because over time runes tend to gravitate towards the places they will be used (supply and demand and all). A temple may reward a member with a rune for some duty or send a member on a quest to get a necessary rune. I actually see many runes having a unique history over generations with a specific temple."The Dark troll Zog killed Thelankor and took his Truth rune - avenge his death and you may attempt to bond with his rune, that once belonged to Greatwold, who won it from a Mostali in a game of wits".

If you want to sell a rune it makes sense to sell it to someone who values that rune. Sun Dome temples will pay well for Truth and Light runes as well as runes required to cast their cult spells. Darkness runes you may want to take somewhere else if you want top dollar. This and the fact that Temples will seek out required runes means that over time runes will be 'distributed' to where they are 'needed'

I don't use any mechanism for creating runes through rituals, though they can be gained on hero quests or manifest sometimes as described in runic powers (for example a light rune may appear on the spot where a powerful runelord of Yelmalio was slain).

I'm not saying that Runes and Rune Magic and Cults and how they all interact in Glorantha is perfect - they system certainly has some bumps. I understand why some people don't use rune integration or don't use it with cults. But it can work as is just fine.

 

[B_Steele]

Well, as an aside, when I put together the RQ Spellbook...I designed SEVERAL of the spells to work specifically with Rune Integration (as we had intended it), especially some of the more powerful spells that require to have two of the same Rune integrated.

You might say that we designed integration to be integral.

Cheers,
Bry

 

[soltakss]

And Glorantha is anything but a generic fantasy world. Its a bit more fiddly than the basic RQ book would have it.
Jeff

There are rules for spell casting and rules for using spells with runes. In those rules, Skybolt is a Chaos Rune spell and requires integtration of the Chaos Rune to cast. This is stated.

CoG has Orlanth using the Skybolt spell. This is in black and white. Since there are no references anywhere in the book saying that, in Glorantha, Skybolt is not a Chaos-Rune spell and that Orlanthi get Skybolt from their association with the Air/Storm Rune then the standard rule for Chaos-Rune Skybolt must still apply.

Sure, those of us who have played in Glorantha for a while know that Orlanthi would never use a Chaos Rune, but someone coming to Glorantha for the first time wouldn't know that and may well have an Orlanthi running about with Chaos Runes and Skybolt.

Sure, I was just about to say that myself, having read Glorantha info for ten years straight.

If you look at it again, in my sentence earlier I wrote, "I have seen the Skybolt-Chaos rune connection as [...] part of the generic fantasy world set-up, that is to say, something that would NOT apply to Glorantha." This may still sound wishy-washy, but what I meant to clarify was that there are things in RQMR and RQ Companion that are usable for a new fantasy world, a generic D&D type world, a pseudo-historical world (remember Fantasy Europe?), the worlds from novels or comicbooks, but not for Glorantha.

Mongoose Publishing said so themselves in an FAQ: There are some magic rules for Glorantha, and there are some magic rules that do not necesarily apply to Glorantha. At the moment I do not run a game set in Glorantha.

But, if you have a rule that has been described and that rule specifically does not apply to Glorantha, then there should be another rule stated that says the rule does not apply to Glorantha.

Or am I being stupid?

 

[Jed Clayton]

But, if you have a rule that has been described and that rule specifically does not apply to Glorantha, then there should be another rule stated that says the rule does not apply to Glorantha.

Or am I being stupid?

You are anything but stupid. Don't worry.

I looked up the statement that I drew my conclusion from. It is by Matthew Sprange, RQ Player's Guide PDF, "Questions Answered," page 3, last paragraph:

"Remember, this is a generic set of rules that can cover a variety of settings. Glorantha will be covered in its own range of books, which are based on the foundation of these rules, but not slaved to it."

I haven't got Cults of Glorantha or Magic of Glorantha, but plan on using them soon, if only for comparison and reference. Once a fan, always a fan.

 

[soltakss]

Sure, that's fine.

However, if a particular rule is irrelevant to Glorantha or is covered differently in Glorantha, then the Gloranthan sources should contain rules that explain the differences.

Otherwise how are we to know which rules are for generic RQ and which for Glorantha?

Once again, I know that Orlanthi wouldn't use a Chaos-Rune spell, so either Skybolt is not Chaos-Rune in Glorantha (In which case what Rune? Fire/Sky or Air/Storm sound reasonable, but this isn't stated anywhere) or the Orlanth Cult shouldn't grant Skybolt (but it does) or perhaps Orlanth can use Chaos Magic in Second Age Glorantha (that would explain a lot).

 

[Rurik]

[Rant]

I f**king hate Skybolt.

[/Rant]

 

[Magistus]

Once again, I know that Orlanthi wouldn't use a Chaos-Rune spell, so either Skybolt is not Chaos-Rune in Glorantha (In which case what Rune? Fire/Sky or Air/Storm sound reasonable, but this isn't stated anywhere) or the Orlanth Cult shouldn't grant Skybolt (but it does) or perhaps Orlanth can use Chaos Magic in Second Age Glorantha (that would explain a lot).

Actually Skybolt is a spell effect it really isn't a Rune. Now this is not stating that multiple runes have the ability to cause this same spell effect, and if you wish they could look differently but have the same effect. That was how I saw this.

 

[atgxtg]

You mean Mobngoose never cleared up the whole Chaos Rune in Glorantha thing? I though they were going to handle all that in the Glorantha supplments.


Even the name "Skybolt" sounds like it should be tied to the Fire/Sky (or possibly Air) Rune instead.

Chaosbolt would be better.

 

[Rurik]

Skybolt has not been cleared up in any Glorantha specific book. It is indeed listed as a cult spell for Orlanth in Cults 1. So Soltakss is right - according to the rules, worshippers of Orlanth would need to integrate Chaos runes to learn the Skybolt spell.

I just don't use Skybolt in Glorantha. Maybe it has a place in a generic game, but NIMG (Not In My Glorantha). There has never before been a lightning bolt like direct damage zappy spell in RQ battle/spirit magic before. It is way overpowered, and the Chaos rune association just doesn't work with it.

Another simple 'fix' is to change it's runic association to something else, like Air. But that doesn't really fix the overpowered nature of the spell.

And adding insult to injury, they claimed they cut the Divine Spell Sever Spirit because it was too powerful, yet they added in Skybolt and Hand of Death as rune spells, both of which are cheaper and pretty much instant kill spells in and of themselves. At least Humakt gains Resurrection as compensation. :roll:

 

[Sinisalo]

You might say that we designed integration to be integral.

Yeah fine. Having initiates have access to their cult spells without integration of runes doesn't undermine the current design at all. You can still go out and collect the runes for magics your cult doesn't teach. It's not either/or.

 

[atgxtg]

Thanks for clearing stuff up for me Rurik. :idea:

I'd post a reaction to it, but I just don't have a civil response. :evil: :roll:


BTW, Is Sunspear still around?

 

[soltakss]

Once again, I know that Orlanthi wouldn't use a Chaos-Rune spell, so either Skybolt is not Chaos-Rune in Glorantha (In which case what Rune? Fire/Sky or Air/Storm sound reasonable, but this isn't stated anywhere) or the Orlanth Cult shouldn't grant Skybolt (but it does) or perhaps Orlanth can use Chaos Magic in Second Age Glorantha (that would explain a lot).

Actually Skybolt is a spell effect it really isn't a Rune. Now this is not stating that multiple runes have the ability to cause this same spell effect, and if you wish they could look differently but have the same effect. That was how I saw this.

Skybolt is a spell that is tied to the Chaos Rune. RQ Rulebook P77.

All that it needed was a one-line addition to the Orlanth cult saying that in Glorantha Skybolt is connected to the Air/Storm Rune (or Fire/Sky if other cults grant it) but we don;t have it.

The problem with Orlanth getting Skybolt, in case I haven't made myself clear, is that Orlanth is an anti-Chaos deity, probably in the top 4 anti-chaotic deities, with Storm Bull, Kyger Kitor and Zorak Zoran. So as the rules and spell descriptions currently stand, any Orlanthi wishing to learn/cast their cult special spell Skybolt has to integrate the Chaos Rune.

I don't want to have to go around in circles explaining again, but this is ridiculous. It's like writing up a spell Speak With Tongues and assigning it to the Devil Rune (as speaking in tongues is a well-attested Demonic/Devil thing) then writing up a cult description for the Roman Catholic Church and giving them Speak With Tongues without explaining that Christians can Speaking in Tongues in this case is associated with the Holy Spirit Rune. Sorry for the example, but it's the closest one I can think of.

 

[atgxtg]

Say, technically speaking...

Could a Uroxi intergrate the Chaos Rune and use Skybolt in MRQ, too? Or is Orltanth the only one who can?

Maybe Orlanth is illuminated?

 

[soltakss]

They could but they'd probably get killed.

Orlanth, however, couldn't kill his own worshippers for integrating a chaos run as his cult grants a chaos rune spell.

Good, isn't it?

 

[atgxtg]

They could but they'd probably get killed.

Orlanth, however, couldn't kill his own worshippers for integrating a chaos run as his cult grants a chaos rune spell.

Good, isn't it?

No, it isn't good.

I get the distinct feeling that the people who wrote this weren't actually running any Gloranthan stuff. Or they just didn't care.

On the plus side, Humakt is one of the few Gods without a Chaos hangup. Guess it's worth being on good terms with the Orlanthi to get Skybolt as a Sever Spirit replacement.

 

[gamesmeister]

I get the distinct feeling that the people who wrote this weren't actually running any Gloranthan stuff. Or they just didn't care.

That's definitely not the case - Jeff Kyer wrote the Cults books, and you only need to read some of his other Glorantha material to know that he both knows and cares about this stuff.

But there's no doubt some glaring errors have crept in at some point. What's intensely frustrating is that Mongoose don't seem to want to do anything about it.

 

[atgxtg]

I get the distinct feeling that the people who wrote this weren't actually running any Gloranthan stuff. Or they just didn't care.

That's definitely not the case - Jeff Kyer wrote the Cults books, and you only need to read some of his other Glorantha material to know that he both knows and cares about this stuff.

But there's no doubt some glaring errors have crept in at some point. What's intensely frustrating is that Mongoose don't seem to want to do anything about it.

Ah, thanks. Sounds like an editor/proofreader problem. It doesn't mean much what the author know/cares if the product is getting filtered through someone else without that knowledge and enthusiasm.

Considering the types and quantity of errors, it does look like Mongoose isn't playing the game.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

[

Ah, thanks. Sounds like an editor/proofreader problem. It doesn't mean much what the author know/cares if the product is getting filtered through someone else without that knowledge and enthusiasm.

Considering the types and quantity of errors, it does look like Mongoose isn't playing the game.

ISTR the editor of the Cults book admitting here that he didn't know much/anything about Glorantha, and made editing decisons based on changes to the rules since the last copies Jeff Kayer had seen and what was least work. (Eg, rule changes meant that "Sever Spirit" would not make sense as written so rather than get someone to re-write the spell to fit the new rules it was just dropped, despite being the Humakti "signature" spell).

Given this wilful mishandling of the property, I can easily imagine someone deciding, for example, to replace the Ortlanthi spell "Call lightning" (with a description which is similar too/the same as "Skybolt" but substituting "Air" for "Chaos") with "Skybolt" to save a few words, or to "reduce complexity"

 

[RosenMcStern]

It is also possible that when Jeff wrote the Cults book Skybolt had not been assigned to the Chaos Rune. Do not forget that the book as we know it The runic associations in the core rulebook do not make much sense for Glorantha, with the most popular spells like Bladesharp tied to a formerly unknown (or was it me who did not know it?) Metal Rune.

Anyway, this is another mistake that slipped in. Easy to houserule, like anything else: Skybolt in Glorantha requires _two_ air runes, so the balance problem is resolved, too.

In any case, I am not going to play theist cultures in 2nd Age Glorantha until all this has been sorted out.

As for the reason why Runes tend to be available at the "appropriate" temple, I do not agree with Rurik's trade-oriented explanation. Assume that the number of Runes in Genertela is fixed (depending on the leftovers of the God Wars). A temple has access to a storage of Runes it has accumulated over time. The number of runes does not depend on the number of initiates, so if the temple is a Shrine every initiate and his dog can get a rune. If the temple grows to Major Temple Size, it is possible that there are not even enough runes for the Acolytes. This is Wrong: a bigger temple should grant more opportunities to its initiates, not less. So a temple should be able to make its own runes.