Rune Integration always necessary?

[B_Steele]

Considering the types and quantity of errors, it does look like Mongoose isn't playing the game.

I can't speak for the other writers or editors, but I have a local Glorantha game that I playtest alot of my stuff through. It is a blast, and they are just getting into the good and meaty stuff.

Although, my wife (as her Zebraur woman-warrior) just took the head clean off my Kygor Litor Uz NPC....hmm...I need to think how that is going to work out....

Cheers,
Bry

 

[Rurik]

As for the reason why Runes tend to be available at the "appropriate" temple, I do not agree with Rurik's trade-oriented explanation. Assume that the number of Runes in Genertela is fixed (depending on the leftovers of the God Wars). A temple has access to a storage of Runes it has accumulated over time. The number of runes does not depend on the number of initiates, so if the temple is a Shrine every initiate and his dog can get a rune. If the temple grows to Major Temple Size, it is possible that there are not even enough runes for the Acolytes. This is Wrong: a bigger temple should grant more opportunities to its initiates, not less. So a temple should be able to make its own runes.

A shrine probably wouldn't have an excess of runes. Runes would gravitate towards larger temples because they have more of a need for them and have more resources to aquire them (buy or barter) so supply and demand would dictate larger temples would have more runes. Also, larger temples have more followers aquiring runes through performing cult quests and the like (i.e. adventuring).

 

[RosenMcStern]

A shrine probably wouldn't have an excess of runes. Runes would gravitate towards larger temples because they have more of a need for them and have more resources to aquire them (buy or barter) so supply and demand would dictate larger temples would have more runes. Also, larger temples have more followers aquiring runes through performing cult quests and the like (i.e. adventuring).

You are still assuming that a greater demand for runes would generate a greater supply of them. But this is possible only if runes can be crafted or mined. You can send any number of cultists on quests, once the majority of the runes of your cult in the nearby area are in your possession, gaining new initiates means that the average magic power of your cultist is lower for lack of runes. Not very Gloranthan, IMO.

To provide a correct model, the quantity of runes available to a cult must not be finite. And this implies you must quest on the hero plane for runes, or something similar, not just trade the runes that are already around.

 

[atgxtg]

From what I've read so far, Mongoose has decided to let the quantity/availability of runes be decided by each individual GM. So I guess what model to go with depends on just how rare a GM want's runes to be.

I think that was a bad way to go with Glorantha, since the world is altered considerably based on such things. Considering the new prices top learn magic, magic is either a lot less common, or there will be a LOT more money in a campaign than in the old days. Either course has some far reaching effects on the campaign.

 

[Rurik]

You are still assuming that a greater demand for runes would generate a greater supply of them. But this is possible only if runes can be crafted or mined. You can send any number of cultists on quests, once the majority of the runes of your cult in the nearby area are in your possession, gaining new initiates means that the average magic power of your cultist is lower for lack of runes. Not very Gloranthan, IMO.

To provide a correct model, the quantity of runes available to a cult must not be finite. And this implies you must quest on the hero plane for runes, or something similar, not just trade the runes that are already around.

I do allow for new runes to be gained - from my earlier post:

I don't use any mechanism for creating runes through rituals, though they can be gained on hero quests or manifest sometimes as described in runic powers (for example a light rune may appear on the spot where a powerful runelord of Yelmalio was slain).

Though even if there was no way for supply to be replenished I still hold that runes would tend to 'migrate' towards where they are valued most over time, and end up 'clustering' at temples, more so at bigger ones (in theistic lands at least). I don't envision each cult temple has enough runes for all of it's initiates sitting around either - it is not like once you get initiated you automatically receive your set of runes, but that they can be pretty easily obtained through your cult as rewards for performing quests and the like.

 

[Puck]

What would really help would be more examples from books, scenarios and the like. I really got the feeling for 3rd age Gloranthian culture from Biturian Varosh and Paulis. Also, Npc characters in any suppliment really communicated the feel for how magic should work. This stuff could hint to Gms and players alike as to how common or uncommon runes really are. It could also communicate how runes are found, hoarded, traded for and distributed in the second age. The only book like this that I have found is the Rune of Chaos and that makes runes seem like they are very rare.

If some archaeologist could unearth a fragmet or two from a Lhankor Mhy or God-Learner study on the economics of runes in the second age it would go a long way.

 

[frogspawner]

What would really help would be more examples...

Sadly, I think that's just what Mongoose now cannot do. They are presumably scared that by giving examples that define the rarity of Runes (and other things) in "Mongoose Glorantha" they will alienate potential customers.

But if Rune of Chaos defines them as rare, that may be a step in the right direction...

 

[Ian Cooper]

Considering the types and quantity of errors, it does look like Mongoose isn't playing the game.

I can't speak for the other writers or editors, but I have a local Glorantha game that I playtest alot of my stuff through.

How are you handling rune spells and cults in your game then?

 

[B_Steele]

The only book like this that I have found is the Rune of Chaos and that makes runes seem like they are very rare.

I wrote that as a non-Glorantha introductory scenario to help people get started with the rules, not as anything to bind a scenario-setting by. I mean, if everyone made characters with magical professions for the game, there would have a bunch of runes around. It was just an intro scenario, and definitely not a binder to any set of setting rules.

How are you handling rune spells and cults in your game then?

Rune spells are as written in my game (integration, physical objects in hand, etc.), and my players group have been wandering Prax rather aimlessly for a while now - so other than being lay members, they have not really gotten into the cult lifestyle as of yet (except for villifying a possible NPC Yelmite). They are about to hit the city of Refuge and then have some choices to spend some civilised time around others, so I am thinking that some cult choices will be made very shortly.

Basically, in my game, the cults themselves do not hand out runes or anything. They have access to learn certain Rune Magic spells because of a general knowledge of it within the ranks of the cultists. How I run it is that the listed Rune Spells for the cult are not a license to automatically HAVE the spells, but the guarantee that the spell will be available to be taught freely to cult members who have the runes necessary.

Now, that might come as a problem for a few Gloranthans who dislike the idea of an anti-Chaos cult needing Chaos Rune(s) for certain spells taught by their cult. Although I did not make that decision in the design process of the cults books or original spells, I figure that it is because these cults are not as consumed by their battle against Chaos in the Second Age. Before you all grab your torches and pitchforks...hear me out.

Think of it. The Second Age is dominated by a different kind of threat besides just the growth of Chaos. The kind of Myth-altering strangeness that the God Learner/EWF wars represent could easily dominate the worries and tecahings of some cults. Chaos is always there, and it must always be battled, but in a world where one empire is erasing and re-moulding gods while their enemies are trying to awaken the Dragon within a continent...maybe a cult's devotions are a bit askewed?

Also, we all know that Chaos is really strong in the 3rd Age. Maybe it was the mistaken practices of the Second Age cults that helped strengthen it? Maybe the people of Glorantha are generally ignorant of the potential hazards of integrating a Chaos Rune? One does not turn to metal when they integrate a Metal Rune, die when they integrate a Death Rune, or turn into a zombie if they integrate just one Undeath Rune. Perhaps it is the "just one Chaos Rune never hurt anybody, but check out this cool spell I can learn now!" mentality in the Second Age that turns Chaos into such an omnipresent threat in the Third Age?

I'm not saying any of this is law or anything, but I am saying that it could be, and if it helps make your 2nd Age game feel better and make more sense...then maybe go with it.

As I've always said; it is better to look for why a rule might be right than automatically assuming it is wrong.

Hope that is helpful...and cheers all!

-Bry

 

[RosenMcStern]

How I run it is that the listed Rune Spells for the cult are not a license to automatically HAVE the spells, but the guarantee that the spell will be available to be taught freely to cult members who have the runes necessary.

Which is fine, but not the way Glorantha was represented in previous RPGs.

Also, we all know that Chaos is really strong in the 3rd Age.

Really? More than in previous ages? I have never seen this stated in previous works.

As I've always said; it is better to look for why a rule might be right than automatically assuming it is wrong.

Absolutely. But in this case I think that, after considering it carefully, the rule is, in fact, wrong. It is just a justification of something non-Gloranthan that slipped into the Cult Book because of uncareful editing by someone who did not know the setting very well. Better write some errata.

 

[B_Steele]

Really? More than in previous ages? I have never seen this stated in previous works.

Then let me rephrase. We haven't yet stated the strength of Chaos in the Second Age...yet...but it is not the focussed enemies of most PCs (like the EWF and GLs). My take on it is that Chaos gets stronger over the Second Age, and I was offering a reason why that could be.

Again, it is your game to run how you guys will, I'm just saying that if old ways of thinking might just get you frustrated with the material; maybe a fresh look or idea could make for a better gaming experience for all of the new faces coming to Glorantha 2A?



Bry

 

[TRose]

Once again, I know that Orlanthi wouldn't use a Chaos-Rune spell, so either Skybolt is not Chaos-Rune in Glorantha (In which case what Rune? Fire/Sky or Air/Storm sound reasonable, but this isn't stated anywhere) or the Orlanth Cult shouldn't grant Skybolt (but it does) or perhaps Orlanth can use Chaos Magic in Second Age Glorantha (that would explain a lot).

Actually Sky bolt is a spell effect it really isn't a Rune. Now this is not stating that multiple runes have the ability to cause this same spell effect, and if you wish they could look differently but have the same effect. That was how I saw this.

I agree with that. Take the common spell disruption as stated you need a disorder rune and it does 1d3
but I see no problem with having a cold dart spell that does 1d3( uses cold rune) a fire spark spell that does 1d3(Fire rune) a skyjolt that does1d3(electical air rune) ect. In game ter they are really all the same disruption spell with different effects But they could add color to the game. Same with Skybolt/chaos bolt, same spell as far as game ffect goes but different runes and effects
Now as for rarity/cost of runes. I think people should keep in mind that for spirit casters charms(( and on page 8 of cults 2 it says owning a charm is the same as an integrated rune) only cost 100 sp and a point of power. So if playing in a game where runes are rare becoming a spiritist would become tempting. Might add on page 10 it says spirit caster cast all spells using their summoning skill so unless I'm missing something in many ways they are the way to go.

 

[Puck]

I see no problem with having a cold dart spell that does 1d3( uses cold rune) a fire spark spell that does 1d3(Fire rune) a skyjolt that does1d3(electical air rune) ect. In game ter they are really all the same disruption spell with different effects But they could add color to the game.

I do just this with a great many spells. I simply re-assigned spells to runes to match my game. For instance the earth, water and man runes all have heal. I tried to match as many spells as I could to each rune and made runes all inclusive rather than exclusive. For instance, since the human body is made up of a great deal of liquid, the water rune would help in healing. By the reverse token I also allow disruption with the water rune (instant severe dehydration). This definitely makes runes more powerful, but has sure added to the flavor of the game and has not seemed to unbalance anything.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Really? More than in previous ages? I have never seen this stated in previous works.

Again, it is your game to run how you guys will, I'm just saying that if old ways of thinking might just get you frustrated with the material; maybe a fresh look or idea could make for a better gaming experience for all of the new faces coming to Glorantha 2A?

Refreshing something with the excuse that "it is Second Age, after all" is a good idea, because you can do away with some traditional misconceptions of the past. But many of us old-timers are afraid that this may lead to a wrong interpretation of Glorantha, especially when newbies are involved. With the rules as written, you have Humakti with Resurrection (anathema :shock: ) and Storm Bulls that integrate Chaos runes to learn Skybolt from Orlanth. This looks more non-Glorantha than Second Age.

 

[soltakss]

What would really help would be more examples from books, scenarios and the like. I really got the feeling for 3rd age Gloranthian culture from Biturian Varosh and Paulis. Also, Npc characters in any suppliment really communicated the feel for how magic should work. This stuff could hint to Gms and players alike as to how common or uncommon runes really are. It could also communicate how runes are found, hoarded, traded for and distributed in the second age. The only book like this that I have found is the Rune of Chaos and that makes runes seem like they are very rare.

If some archaeologist could unearth a fragmet or two from a Lhankor Mhy or God-Learner study on the economics of runes in the second age it would go a long way.

Hmmm, I am very wary of seeing rules mechanics in fiction samples.

One of the reasons that Biturian Varosh and Paulis were so good is that the descriptions kept away from rules and quite often kept away from naming spells (with a few exceptions).

Whenever I have seen rules examples included in excerpts, it has seemed very clunky and clumsy.

So, I wouldn't like to see these in the kind of narratives that you mention.

However, put them in little text boxes with an example of how Runes are used in play and great, I'd be happy.

 

[frogspawner]

But many of us old-timers are afraid that this may lead to a wrong interpretation of Glorantha, especially when newbies are involved. With the rules as written, you have Humakti with Resurrection (anathema :shock: ) and Storm Bulls that integrate Chaos runes to learn Skybolt from Orlanth. This looks more non-Glorantha than Second Age.

"Lead to a wrong interpretation"?? It is a wrong interpretation! Unless Mongoose are planning to reveal that this blasphemous subversion of fine upstanding cults is really the work of Chaos, using the EWF and GLs as masks. If so we should be told. (Mind you, I guess it must be something like that. Or how can the famous line "Every 600 years you have come..." be true?)

However, put them in little text boxes with an example of how Runes are used in play and great, I'd be happy.

Do you really think so? Isn't it more likely you'd discover you didn't like the official rules interpretation, and so become quite unhappy? Unless, of course, we write them ourselves...

 

[HalB]

Someone above mentioned that old RQ had the convention that spirit magic (now rune magic) was what common folks used and Rune Levels had Divine magic.

In RQ3, as I recall, initiates of cults could sacrifice POW for one time use of Divine Magic. Rune Levels had reusable Divine Magic.

Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[RosenMcStern]

You are right. Initiates rarely used Divine Magic since it was one-use. Only powerful Priests and Rune Lords relied on divine magic. Initiates used Spirit Magic.

Now it is the opposite. Divine Magic is reusable for everyone, so initiates can get some without a permanent loss of POW, while Rune Magic requires Runes, which are not available to everyone. A simple Initiate will rely on Heal Wound and Shield, while a powerful Rune Lord will be Rune touched and use Heal and Protection instead.

 

[frogspawner]

But why should we let these Mongoose rules reverse parts of the generally accepted version of Glorantha?

With relatively little interpretation/adaptation, anomalies like that can be fixed.

 

[atgxtg]

But why should we let these Mongoose rules reverse parts of the generally accepted version of Glorantha?

With relatively little interpretation/adaptation, anomalies like that can be fixed.

Well,
For one thing the "generally accepted" version of Glorantha isn't. HeroQuest sort of blew the generally accepted version of Glorantha out of the water.

Plus, if you are going to eliminate the abnormalities, you would probably end up with RQ2 or RQ3 by the time you ironed out everything.