Rune Integration always necessary?

[Jed Clayton]

Hello everyone,

Here's something from the core RQ rules I haven't quite understood yet:

In order to gain rune magic spells, you have to integrate with the pertaining rune first, and thus become one of the Rune Touched. Fair enough. Being Rune Touched gives you the benefits of a certain Runic Power and access to learning rune magic spells.

But is this also standard procedure for the various rune magic spells (formerly "spirit magic" in RQ3) taught by a cult? Cannot a cult elder or rune priest simply teach an initiate to get the same effect? If so, how?

The sample cults in RQMR and RQ Companion, sketchy as they might be for the time being, have Divine Magic listed as well as "cult spells" and "spells commonly taught by the cult." For example, if a worshipper of Storm King wanted to get a little Bladesharp for his favoured weapon, would he have to integrate with a Rune of Metal first?

Since I assume Rune Integration should be somewhat rare, given the prerequisite Persistence check and so on, the latter would seriously limit the number of worshippers or initiates with rune magic spells at their disposal.

Mind you, I haven't read Cults of Glorantha yet, so I'm only referring to the core vanilla ("basic") rules framework in RQMR, not Gloranthan magic.

 

[frogspawner]

Hi. Yes, a lot has been said about the matter on this forum before now - try looking for those old threads.

Those of us who prefer rare (or no) Rune Integration generally favour a house rule that being member of a Rune Cult (i.e. any cult!) is enough to allow associated spells to be learned.

Maybe Initiate level, maybe Lay membership is enough. Maybe spells of the cults runes, maybe spells associated with the cult for other (historical) reasons. Opinions vary widely. The rules don't help - I suspect Mongoose are keeping them deliberately vague, so they can sell books both to people who like the 'rune-scooping arcade-game' style of play (are there any?) and to people who condemn such activities as 'un-gloranthan' (like me).

Hope that helps.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Do not forget that you have to learn the appropriate Runecasting skill, too.

One note. The basic ruleset (core+companion) states that Divine Magic is an advanced form of magic that cultists learn once they have mastered rune magic. This had been the traditional approach in previous editions of Gloranthan magic: everyone has spirit magic, only rune levels have divine magic.

I think that MRQ radically changes this. An initiate of a cult can easily learn some points of divine magic by acquiring the Theology skill and temporarily "freezing" some points of POW. To get rune magic, the same initiate must get a rune, roll Persistence and sacrifice one point of POW per rune. It is obvious that most initiates will have access to Heal Wound long before they learn Heal, while the opposite was true in RQ2/3.

This apparently non-canonical approach is instead more Gloranthan, IMO. You may think of Divine Magic as a sort of "limited divine intervention", while acquiring Rune Magic involves a deeper understanding of one of the basic principles of the universe (the Rune). With rune integration, you are actually partaking of your god's powers, not only invoking them. It is rather akin to the Affinity/Feat concept that exists in HeroQuest theism. Think of Rune integration as acquiring an affinity, and spell learning as learning a feat.

 

[Jed Clayton]

The basic ruleset (core+companion) states that Divine Magic is an advanced form of magic that cultists learn once they have mastered rune magic. This had been the traditional approach in previous editions of Gloranthan magic: everyone has spirit magic, only rune levels have divine magic.

I think that MRQ radically changes this [...]

This apparently non-canonical approach is instead more Gloranthan, IMO. You may think of Divine Magic as a sort of "limited divine intervention", while acquiring Rune Magic involves a deeper understanding of one of the basic principles of the universe (the Rune). With rune integration, you are actually partaking of your god's powers, not only invoking them. It is rather akin to the Affinity/Feat concept that exists in HeroQuest theism. Think of Rune integration as acquiring an affinity, and spell learning as learning a feat.

Oh, good. I think this last part sounds very interesting.

As a matter of fact, I think the reversion you indicated could also explain something else I found in the rules:

The Divine Magic spell of Lightning only inflicts a "lowly" 1D4 to a given hit location, i.e. 1D4 per point of POW, while the rune magic spell called Skybolt does a whopping 3D6 points of damage, more than most swords will do, and it also goes through all armour. I know Skybolt can't be boosted, but it is a more effective "weapon" to most beginning characters. :wink: One character in my group currently uses Skybolt, that's why I noticed.

 

[soltakss]

Don't forget that Skybolt is a Chaos Rune spell.

Why use Lightning when a good Orlanthi can use their cult special Chaos Rune spell of Skybolt instead?

Has nobody got an official correction for this particular anomaly yet?

 

[gamesmeister]

This apparently non-canonical approach is instead more Gloranthan, IMO. You may think of Divine Magic as a sort of "limited divine intervention", while acquiring Rune Magic involves a deeper understanding of one of the basic principles of the universe (the Rune). With rune integration, you are actually partaking of your god's powers, not only invoking them. It is rather akin to the Affinity/Feat concept that exists in HeroQuest theism. Think of Rune integration as acquiring an affinity, and spell learning as learning a feat.

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that gaining an affinity doesn't involve finding a 'cool magic item', either lying on the floor or taken off the still cooling body of your latest victim. Using this suggestion, only those who acquire such an item can partake of their god's powers, while everyone else, regardless of how well they follow the teachings of their god, can never do so.

From a game point of view, unless a PC finds all the necessary runes, he can't learn many of the spells taught by his cult. For example, a worshipper of Ernalda AllMother can't partake in her gods power by worshipping the goddess, raising the children and managing the stead - no, she needs to be off questing for the runes of:

• Fertility
• Spirit
• Illusion
• Beast

instead. That can't be right...

 

[Jed Clayton]

Don't forget that Skybolt is a Chaos Rune spell.

Why use Lightning when a good Orlanthi can use their cult special Chaos Rune spell of Skybolt instead?

Has nobody got an official correction for this particular anomaly yet?

You're quite right.

However, for the moment, I have seen the Skybolt-Chaos rune connection as another part of the "generic fantasy world set-up" of the RuneQuest rulebook, i.e. as something that wouldn't apply to Glorantha.

 

[Jed Clayton]

The fundamental flaw in this argument is that gaining an affinity doesn't involve finding a 'cool magic item', either lying on the floor or taken off the still cooling body of your latest victim. Using this suggestion, only those who acquire such an item can partake of their god's powers, while everyone else, regardless of how well they follow the teachings of their god, can never do so.

From a game point of view, unless a PC finds all the necessary runes, he can't learn many of the spells taught by his cult. For example, a worshipper of Ernalda AllMother can't partake in her gods power by worshipping the goddess, raising the children and managing the stead - no, she needs to be off questing for the runes of:

• Fertility
• Spirit
• Illusion
• Beast

instead. That can't be right...

Exactly. That's kind of why I asked the question in the first place.

Old RQ3 tended to have characters in its adventures and supplements that were stuffed chockfull of spirit magic. Remember that there used to be a definitive limit as to how many "points" of spirit magic a character could have stored, their INT in "points" worth of spells. (A guy with INT 12 might have, for example, Bladesharp 4, Bludgeon 3, Heal 3 and Vigour 2.) Spirit magic was just something that came to be commonly accepted as a typical or even necessary asset of a character. When Hero Wars/HeroQuest came out, it slightly rectified ("ret-conned"?) this situation for Greg Stafford's Gloranthan terminology: Nobody should be throwing spirit magic around when they were not actually a spirit magic practitioner, basically a shaman. Since Heortling Orlanthi society was not centered around shamanism, Hero Wars gave the Heortling characters (Kolati excepted) minor divine spells named feats. Those feats should have taken the place of frequently used RQ spirit magic/battle magic spells, but in fact they were less common since you had to be a Devotee to get them. It still kind of saddens me that a typical beginning Hero Wars character could do much less with their fancy feats than a new RuneQuest character could have done with 4-5 points of spirit magic. I didn't realize this right away, but it's true. It doesn't make HeroQuest bland or unplayable, but it annoys more gamist roleplayers.

All in all, MRQ makes it harder for everyone to gain rune spells. It also apparently wants to encourage players to actively, literally go out "questing for runes." To me, this is not inherently a bad thing. But as far as the cults are concerned, there ought to be another way to gain the rune spells generally associated with the cult (though maybe not wildly different ones), those that belong to the runes of your deity.

 

[gran_orco]

(...)part of the "generic fantasy world set-up" of the RuneQuest rulebook, i.e. as something that wouldn't apply to Glorantha.

What is the meaning of i.e.?

 

[Puck]

The other serious problem with runes that I have found is that the runes looted from dead bodies are often diametrically opposed to those of the characters. For instance, Sun Domers will often be trying to pound on trolls and other darkness creatures, Storm bull will be killing chaos creatures. Many of the looted runes a character will find will not be alligned to his cult at all. Orlanth cultists will be walking around with Earth and illusion runes, while Tolls will be integrated with Sky and metal runes. All characters as well as npc's will be a little out of focus or alignment. I would rather darkness cults used darkness rune magic and chaos cults using chaos rune magic.

 

[gamesmeister]

The other serious problem with runes that I have found is that the runes looted from dead bodies are often diametrically opposed to those of the characters. For instance, Sun Domers will often be trying to pound on trolls and other darkness creatures, Storm bull will be killing chaos creatures. Many of the looted runes a character will find will not be alligned to his cult at all. Orlanth cultists will be walking around with Earth and illusion runes, while Tolls will be integrated with Sky and metal runes. All characters as well as npc's will be a little out of focus or alignment. I would rather darkness cults used darkness rune magic and chaos cults using chaos rune magic.

Very good point!

Integrated runes are a good idea as a complement to crystals and other 'cool items', but as the source of common magic, they just don't work.

 

[Rurik]

The other serious problem with runes that I have found is that the runes looted from dead bodies are often diametrically opposed to those of the characters. For instance, Sun Domers will often be trying to pound on trolls and other darkness creatures, Storm bull will be killing chaos creatures. Many of the looted runes a character will find will not be alligned to his cult at all. Orlanth cultists will be walking around with Earth and illusion runes, while Tolls will be integrated with Sky and metal runes. All characters as well as npc's will be a little out of focus or alignment. I would rather darkness cults used darkness rune magic and chaos cults using chaos rune magic.

Actually, if the above were true (and it will be to some extent), then wouldn't trolls have a lot of Truth and Light runes from all the Sun Domers they have killed?

It seems it would would even out eventually. Also, all those nasty Truth and Light runes could probably be used as payment when you need to ransom back some brethren from those sun worshippers.

 

[B_Steele]

Also, all those nasty Truth and Light runes could probably be used as payment when you need to ransom back some brethren from those sun worshippers.

Argh! Rurik, you beat me there AGAIN. Seriously though, just because someone HAS the runes on them when you kill them doesn't mean that you would WANT to integrate them. Maybe just stash them in a sack for the right time to use as payment, trade, or ransom?

-Bry

 

[Voriof]

(...)part of the "generic fantasy world set-up" of the RuneQuest rulebook, i.e. as something that wouldn't apply to Glorantha.

What is the meaning of i.e.?

It is an abbreviation of the latin phrase "id est" (that is) and is used to mean "that is to say" or "in other words" - though many people seem to use it as "for example" which isn't quite correct.

And Glorantha is anything but a generic fantasy world. Its a bit more fiddly than the basic RQ book would have it.

Jeff

 

[Jed Clayton]

(...)part of the "generic fantasy world set-up" of the RuneQuest rulebook, i.e. as something that wouldn't apply to Glorantha.

What is the meaning of i.e.?

It is an abbreviation of the latin phrase "id est" (that is) and is used to mean "that is to say" or "in other words" - though many people seem to use it as "for example" which isn't quite correct.

And Glorantha is anything but a generic fantasy world. Its a bit more fiddly than the basic RQ book would have it.

Jeff

Sure, I was just about to say that myself, having read Glorantha info for ten years straight.

If you look at it again, in my sentence earlier I wrote, "I have seen the Skybolt-Chaos rune connection as [...] part of the generic fantasy world set-up, that is to say, something that would NOT apply to Glorantha." This may still sound wishy-washy, but what I meant to clarify was that there are things in RQMR and RQ Companion that are usable for a new fantasy world, a generic D&D type world, a pseudo-historical world (remember Fantasy Europe?), the worlds from novels or comicbooks, but not for Glorantha.

Mongoose Publishing said so themselves in an FAQ: There are some magic rules for Glorantha, and there are some magic rules that do not necesarily apply to Glorantha. At the moment I do not run a game set in Glorantha.

 

[Jed Clayton]

Also, all those nasty Truth and Light runes could probably be used as payment when you need to ransom back some brethren from those sun worshippers.

Argh! Rurik, you beat me there AGAIN. Seriously though, just because someone HAS the runes on them when you kill them doesn't mean that you would WANT to integrate them. Maybe just stash them in a sack for the right time to use as payment, trade, or ransom?

-Bry

In my humble game campaign at the moment, I have one player who plays a druid whose only integrated rune is Fertility. The character (and to some extent the player) firmly believes that a diametrically opposed rune would take his Fertility magic away or somehow make it "go bad." Moreover, he seems to think that obviously opposed runes should cancel each other out: Life and Death, Chaos and Law, Man and Beast, Light and Darkness, Fire and Water, Harmony and Disorder, Metal and Plant. (Of course, other runes out of the list of 35 do not have an obvious opposite. What would be the opposite of Mastery?)

That way, this character will at least never contemplate integrating a Death or Chaos rune.

 

[RosenMcStern]

From a game point of view, unless a PC finds all the necessary runes, he can't learn many of the spells taught by his cult. For example, a worshipper of Ernalda AllMother can't partake in her gods power by worshipping the goddess, raising the children and managing the stead - no, she needs to be off questing for the runes

You assume that belonging to the cult does not help you find/integrate the runes. Most GMs that browse these forums do not. Although not stated in the rules, it is a widespread opinion that in Gloranthan (2nd age) games, you do not find the runes lying on the ground. You get them from your cult.

 

[Jed Clayton]

From a game point of view, unless a PC finds all the necessary runes, he can't learn many of the spells taught by his cult. For example, a worshipper of Ernalda AllMother can't partake in her gods power by worshipping the goddess, raising the children and managing the stead - no, she needs to be off questing for the runes

You assume that belonging to the cult does not help you find/integrate the runes. Most GMs that browse these forums do not. Although not stated in the rules, it is a widespread opinion that in Gloranthan (2nd age) games, you do not find the runes lying on the ground. You get them from your cult.

You might also argue that, in MRQ game terms, membership in a cult will gradually improve your Persistence skill, giving you a higher chance to integrate with runes.

Runecasting and Theology will go up after or parallel to that. So do cult skills, sooner or later.

 

[gamesmeister]

From a game point of view, unless a PC finds all the necessary runes, he can't learn many of the spells taught by his cult. For example, a worshipper of Ernalda AllMother can't partake in her gods power by worshipping the goddess, raising the children and managing the stead - no, she needs to be off questing for the runes

You assume that belonging to the cult does not help you find/integrate the runes. Most GMs that browse these forums do not. Although not stated in the rules, it is a widespread opinion that in Gloranthan (2nd age) games, you do not find the runes lying on the ground. You get them from your cult.

Actually there's been very little discussion on these forums about where runes come from in Glorantha, so not sure how you can know how most GMs on here think. However, pissing contest aside, I don't buy this idea of your local temple stocking up on the relevant runes, to hand out to inititiates as and when they please.

First, where are the temple getting them from? We're still talking about the Ernalda cult here, whose role is at home, not adventuring off to find runes. Second, is there really some sort of bartering system of magical runes going on, such that all the fertility, spirit, illusion and beast runes get passed on to the Ernalda temple to hand out to their worshippers? If so, what is the Ernalda temple offering in return?

And we're not just talking about Ernalda here. A typical Orlanthi clan will consist primarily of Orlanth, Barntar and Ernalda worshippers, with a few others from associated cults. Even the Orlanth worshippers will generally be at home for most of the year, with Fire season being the only time available for general raiding and a little adventuring. I can't believe they're going to find enough runes in that time to keep the local temple stocked.

Perhaps you're right, perhaps the runes do come from the temple, but I think this is more a case of trying to fit a square peg into an icosahedron hole...it just ain't a good fit.

 

[RosenMcStern]

Most posters simply stated "I let cultists gain spells without integrating runes". My interpretation is that most forumers consider initiation as equivalent to rune integration. My opinion is somehow different, but the idea is the same: initiation can replace or facilitate rune integration.

You are still assuming that runes are originally found on the ground, a relic of ancient battles in God Time, and handed over to the appropriate temple. I do not think this is the best representation of how runes work in Glorantha. I think that places of power like temples actually produce runes. Remember: Holy Grounds shift to the Hero or God Plane during High Holy Rites. This was cleary stated even in RQ3, and deeply explored in HeroQuest. And what better opportunity to have some Rune move from the God Plane to the Mundane Plane than when the borders between the two vanish?