Rules Question: Pentacons And Breaking Squadrons

[Dies Irae]

Armageddon mentions that Dilgar maintain the Pentacon Formation even after the Pentacon is reduced to 4 ships or less.

A player has been arguing that if he starts in Pentacon and immediately breaks formation, he still benefits from Pentacon because technically, no ships is still less than 4 as per the rules, which also mention that "All that is necessary is that it is formed as a Pentacon before the battle starts."

Is this correct?

Does killing the last ship in the Pentacon cause the Pentacon benefit to go away?

 

[Silvereye]

That sounds like a very beardy rules-lawyer you have as an opponent.

Armageddon mentions that Dilgar maintain the Pentacon Formation even after the Pentacon is reduced to 4 ships or less.

I get the impression that the rules were written that any reduction was caused by enemy fire, either forcing a ship to drop from the formation or destroying it. Rather than voluntarily breaking it up.

A player has been arguing that if he starts in Pentacon and immediately breaks formation, he still benefits from Pentacon because technically, no ships is still less than 4 as per the rules, which also mention that "All that is necessary is that it is formed as a Pentacon before the battle starts."

I'd argue that if he voluntarily breaks a Pentacon up, it is no longer a Pentacon. If you want to get all the benefits from it, you need to actively try and keep the formation.

Does killing the last ship in the Pentacon cause the Pentacon benefit to go away?

I'd say yes, as there is no Pentacon left for your opponent to activate.

 

[TenaciousB]

Actually, you CAN voluntarily take ships out of the Pentacon, and it still counts as being a Pentacon. The only exception to the rule is that if there is only 1 ship left in the squadron, it does not count as a pentacon.

A player has been arguing that if he starts in Pentacon and immediately breaks formation, he still benefits from Pentacon because technically, no ships is still less than 4 as per the rules, which also mention that "All that is necessary is that it is formed as a Pentacon before the battle starts."

Yup, the player is right, altho there still needs to be a Squadron of at least 2 ships for the Pentacon rule to be in play.

I'd argue that if he voluntarily breaks a Pentacon up, it is no longer a Pentacon. If you want to get all the benefits from it, you need to actively try and keep the formation.

Well, you could argue this, but you'd be wrong :wink: - this was brought into Armageddon to allow the Dilgar to still use the Pentacon effectively, seeing as all squadrons were increased to 6 ships instead of 3, and the SFoS Pentacon rule was the only exception, allowing the Dilgar to have up to 6 ships squadroned.

And to answer the question, if the initial Pentacon has been reduced to 1 ship, it is no longer a Pentacon, as 1 ship cannot be a squadron. So killing the last ship should not make any difference - the Pentacon has already been destroyed.

This was answered by Matt in the rulesmasters a while back.

 

[Locutus9956]

It sounds like the oponent is tring to say he still gets a free initiative step if theres no squadrons left, just all single ships.

A pentacon is a special Dilgar version of a squadron not just a magic 'initiative bonus' if you break it up and still have 2 ships squadroned they can still count as the pentacon and still be skipped in the initiative sequence but if you break it up COMPLETELY so theres no squadron left then there is no pentacon left to 'skip' in the initiative count.

Attempting to claim otherwise isnt just rules lawyering its frankly twisting the wording of the rules to the point of ludicrousness and goes beyond beardy to the point that Id call it flat out cheating.

Armageddon's change is that a SQUADRON of less than 4 ships still remains a pentacon as long as it was formed as one at the start of the game. 1 Ship is not a squadron. No ships is not a squadron. The end.

Dies Irae wrote:
A player has been arguing that if he starts in Pentacon and immediately breaks formation, he still benefits from Pentacon because technically, no ships is still less than 4 as per the rules, which also mention that "All that is necessary is that it is formed as a Pentacon before the battle starts."


Yup, the player is right, altho there still needs to be a Squadron of at least 2 ships for the Pentacon rule to be in play.

No he is not right. No ships IS less than 4 but 1 or less ships is NOT A SQUADRON. Saying he is right but.... is just pouring fuel on the fire, and defending this kind of attepted powergaming is highly dubious....

 

[TenaciousB]

No he is not right. No ships IS less than 4 but 1 or less ships is NOT A SQUADRON. Saying he is right but.... is just pouring fuel on the fire, and defending this kind of attepted powergaming is highly dubious....

Yup, my bad, altho I did explain it correctly. I wasn't "pouring fuel on the fire", as u put it - my explanation was correct, even if I did quote the wrong section of the dude's wording. I wasn't attempting to defend powergaming in the slightest, so get off your soap box.

 

[Locutus9956]

But I like my soap box, its comfy Seriously though, wasnt meant as a dig at you, but more that the original attept at rules twisting still has to be the cheesiest beardiest cheatiest attemt rule bending Ive ever seen in a wargame

 

[TenaciousB]

No probs, dude - reckon I jumped the gun a bit as well lol.

Yeah, beardy players annoy me as well, but hey - it is fun to beat them (in whatever sense you like best :twisted: )

Oh yeah, Star Trek:First Contact is on right now, Locutus - bet you're watching it, just like me! :lol:

 

[Locutus9956]

It is? Oh well too late now (got it on DVD anyway though so no great loss... actually havent watched that for a while come to think of it....)

 

[Hash]

No probs, dude - reckon I jumped the gun a bit as well lol.

Yeah, beardy players annoy me as well, but hey - it is fun to beat them (in whatever sense you like best :twisted: )

Oh yeah, Star Trek:First Contact is on right now, Locutus - bet you're watching it, just like me! :lol:

I am! Best Trek film of the NGen franchise!

 

[TenaciousB]

You're not wrong there, Hash! Fantastic film!

I attended a charity premier of it years ago in Belfast - it was one of the best cinema experiences of my life because there were a LOAD of Star Trek fans there, all dressed up in fancy dress gear. One favourite was this cute, fit dame, who was dressed as the Borg Queen herself. Fantastic!

 

[Locutus9956]

Best TNG trek film by miles but I still prefer Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered country overall

 

[lastbesthope]

Insurrection's on at 9 on Five in the UK

LBH

 

[Silvereye]

Well, you could argue this, but you'd be wrong :wink: - this was brought into Armageddon to allow the Dilgar to still use the Pentacon effectively, seeing as all squadrons were increased to 6 ships instead of 3, and the SFoS Pentacon rule was the only exception, allowing the Dilgar to have up to 6 ships squadroned.

I keep forgetting that the squadron rules were tweaked in Armageddon.

 

[Target]

Has anyone used a 6 ship squadron yet? I actually thought 3 was plenty anyway not sure why the change was done.
Played a 8 pt battle game where i had a "Squadron of Doom", a octurion & 2 primus, Had a shocking round where 18 beams dice at a warlock ( war lvl not "A" lvl) on close blast doors did a horrfic 7pts of dam to it. Maybe i should of added another primus & 2 Sulusts to do some real damage :lol:

 

[Ripple]

We have used six ship squadrons regularly. Early/3rd Age EA hyperion squadrons of five ships is the norm though...use the hermes as initiative sinks (well and the scouts). Those five hyps produce 20 beam dice on the turn they lunge and absolute hordes of flanking pulse dice.

Ripple

 

[TenaciousB]

Well, you could argue this, but you'd be wrong :wink: - this was brought into Armageddon to allow the Dilgar to still use the Pentacon effectively, seeing as all squadrons were increased to 6 ships instead of 3, and the SFoS Pentacon rule was the only exception, allowing the Dilgar to have up to 6 ships squadroned.

I keep forgetting that the squadron rules were tweaked in Armageddon.

yup, not my favourite rule in the Arma "expansion", but there u go.

 

[Silvereye]

One measly sentence, at the foot of a page. Which was full of other rules.

But at least there was not a sign saying Beware of the Leopard.

 

[meglos]

thats because its in a disused toilet.
going back to targets question iv used a 6ship squadron in a 19pt war game it was 5 manhkats and a mishakur,now that had a feel good factor :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[Target]

thats because its in a disused toilet.
going back to targets question iv used a 6ship squadron in a 19pt war game it was 5 manhkats and a mishakur,now that had a feel good factor :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

How many days did that take you?, thats insane.

 

[meglos]

it took us about 11hours ,both fleets were in tatters,my dreadnought pentacon was reduced to 3 ships by the end of the game,and they were being held together by sticky tape