Rules Clarification: Sustained Damage Space Combat

If we give the Laser Rocks a Long Range upgrade and obligingly reduce range to Very Long, the laser Rocks can attack:
Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +5[FireCtrl] +5[size] +2[lock] +2[pulse] -4[range] -3[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D+4, hit chance 100%, average Effect 6, average damage 0.1, 2% crit.
Edit: Oops, the Laser Rock didn't have that large a computer:
Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +2[FireCtrl] +5[size] +2[lock] +2[pulse] -4[range] -3[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D+1, hit chance 100%, average Effect 6, average damage 0, 0.2% crit.

The laser rocks would produce half a Crit 4+ every round, killing the DE after about 20 rounds...

Now you just have to figure out a way to get into range of an uncooperative target... And convince it not to use sandcasters...


Lessons learned: Include a few sandcaster turrets on ships...
 
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Isocost fleets:
One BC Victim-class: MCr 171 000.
2060 Missile Boats.
6100 Laser Rocks.


Encounter 1: 1 BC vs. 2060 Missile Boats.
As they approach, they enter Distant range. Detection is trivial, everybody sees each other.
I am not sure I necessarily agree with this. Detection is not automatic and even a single round of of non-detection would make a significant difference, but you may be right as it looks like you have hundreds of sensor ops and that many eyes can't miss much. The difference would be whether you could actually determine what you were looking at at that range. You don't get many clues at distant. The defenders know you arrived because of your jump flash and your various signatures make it kind of obvious a 120 kDton ship is a ship. I am less convinced you could detect that the asteroid that is running silent is anything other than a rock.

The rules are not clear on this point so let's go with your assumption.
Initiative is generally won by the BC, due to higher Thrust.
Fair enough. We can assume the effect of Naval tactics cancel (crews are equally skilled) and against so many opponents the advantage of first fire is less.
Round 1:
-BC fires 555 Long Range particle turrets @ Distant range:
- -Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +3[FireCtrl] +1[SubCmd] +2[autom] -6[range] -2[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-5, hit chance 83%, average Effect 2, average damage 4, 8% crit.
I have problems with this sort of analysis. It is not enough to simply go for the average. Did you include the Effect number in the damage calculation? I make the average damage after armour 7.2 (they are triple turrets so 3D+6+Effect?).
- -Dodge spoils the shot, each boat has 6 dodges. The boats have 72 Hull, so it takes about 20 shots to kill a boat.
Dodge imposes a negative DM to the attack roll. If we assume a high pilot skill it might impose an additional -5, but I think it is like dodge and is declared after the attack is declared, not after you see how effective the attack was (otherwise you would save them to negate crits). At best it would negate 6 attacks per boat but needs to include those that would have missed anyway. Since 6 in 36 miss it seems fair to assume that 1 dodge was against a shot that missed anyway.
72 hull requires 10 hits of 7.2 average damage plus the 5 that were negated for 15 total each.
- -27 boats killed.
37 boats killed.
-Boats launch 2033 salvoes of 24 nukes, 6 nukes will reach the BC on round 11.
2023 salvos of 24. Not sure what the 6 nukes refers to.
BC effectively neutralises 350 salvoes with EW, 1683 remains for round 11.
I am not sure where you get 350 salvos from. Most of your crew seem to be gunners. With the military ECM suite plus ECM officers you could be getting pretty high Effect rolls. This represents 8400 missiles (which is a admittedly a lot).
BC locks on to 50 boats, boats breaks a few of the locks.

Round 2:
-BC fires 555 Long Range particle turrets @ Distant range:
- -Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +3[FireCtrl] +2[lock] +1[SubCmd] +2[autom] -6[range] -2[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-3, hit chance 97%, average Effect 4, average damage 6, 28% crit.
- -Dodge spoils the shot, each boat has 6 dodges. The boats have 72 Hull, so it takes about 15 shots to kill a boat.
- -37 boats killed, 1996 remains.
Similar to above I think we are talking more like 50 boats killed. 1973 remain.
-Boats launch 1996 salvoes of 24 nukes, 6 nukes will reach the BC on round 12.
BC effectively neutralises 350 salvoes with EW, 1646 remains for round 12.
BC locks on to 50 boats, boats breaks a few of the locks.

...

Round 11:
-BC fires 555 Long Range particle turrets @ Distant range:
- -Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +3[FireCtrl] +2[lock] +1[SubCmd] +2[autom] -6[range] -2[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-3, hit chance 97%, average Effect 4, average damage 6, 28% crit.
- -Dodge spoils the shot, each boat has 6 dodges. The boats have 72 Hull, so it takes about 15 shots to kill a boat.
- -37 boats killed, 1663 remains.
I am not sure here that I would be spending all my gunners on the boats. By now you know you are facing 1000's of Salvos. I would probably not have been sitting still waiting for the attack
-Boats launch 1663 salvoes of 24 nukes, 6 nukes will reach the BC on round 21.
-1683 Salvoes of 6 nukes from round 1 arrives, 555 destroyed by PD, 1128 attacks.
Whilst it is simpler to consider entirely destroyed Salvos, in reality what would really be the case is that there would be more salvos that were partially depleted.
- -Effect = 2D + 1[smart] +6[#of] -2[range] -3[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-6, hit chance 72%, average Effect 1, average damage 7, 4.2% crit, so damage ~8000 and 47 crits.
Statistically 48 crits needed to destroy the fuel tanks, so the BC is likely out of action this or the next few round...

Conclusion: BC critted to death.
Lessions learned:
Missile boats should have used larger salvoes to certainly kill the BC with fewer Crit4+.
Don't skimp on EW, don't let the enemy have a automatic DM+2 to attack from sensor lock.
Don't skimp on sensor operators...
I think this says more about the target than the effectiveness of the missile salvo. With more Sensor Ops (or droids with that capability) none of the missiles need even have arrived. It would have been a walk over for the BC.

In round 11 you could have moved most of your gunners to additional point defence and just plugged at the boats them one at a time until they ran out of ammunition. One less missile in the final attack would have completely prevented an Effect 6+ critical. In thinning all the salvos rather than removing them entirely you might have taken more normal damage but you would would probably only have suffered a single sustained damage critical.

But of course there were no criticals as there were no Large Bays.
 
You wanted a large warship, you got a large warship...

OK, you want a small escort?
GCr 8, 5600 Dt, J-4, M-9, Armour 30, 12 sensor operators
56 turrets, here half particle (LR,HY), half pulse laser (LR,HY).
View attachment 6380


Updated missile boat, because lessons learned:
MCr 180, 360 Dt, J-0, M-6, launches 51 missiles, 15 rounds of ammo.
View attachment 6381



Isocost fleets:
One DE: MCr 8000.
44 missile boats.
285 laser rocks.
Ok. You made the opposition and what you consider to be a reasonable attacker. I'll take your missile boat and replace the Two Missile bays and munitions with a Particle Beam bay. It should be cheaper take up less space, but might need a larger power plant, so probably comes out even.

That will allow a fair side by side comparison where all other than the type of bay is equal (you have twice the firepower, but I have unlimited ammunition)
 
I have problems with this sort of analysis. It is not enough to simply go for the average. Did you include the Effect number in the damage calculation? I make the average damage after armour 7.2 (they are triple turrets so 3D+6+Effect?).
Yes, I counted every case, with effect and armour:
Skärmavbild 2025-10-24 kl. 19.58.32.png
The distribution is not linear or symmetric, so median damage is not a good clue to average damage.


Dodge imposes a negative DM to the attack roll. If we assume a high pilot skill it might impose an additional -5, but I think it is like dodge and is declared after the attack is declared, not after you see how effective the attack was (otherwise you would save them to negate crits). At best it would negate 6 attacks per boat but needs to include those that would have missed anyway.
Agreed, declared before the attack roll.
I just assume we dodge the first attacks, and they are reduced to irrelevance. Hence the first few attacks produce no significant damage, then when there are no more dodges we get real attacks.


Since 6 in 36 miss it seems fair to assume that 1 dodge was against a shot that missed anyway.
72 hull requires 10 hits of 7.2 average damage plus the 5 that were negated for 15 total each.
Minus the crit cascade... If we reduce a small ship to 80-90%, plus a few crits, plus eight cumulative crits, it's done...


2023 salvos of 24. Not sure what the 6 nukes refers to.
High Guard rules that the number of missiles in a salvo halves every five rounds. It takes ten rounds to reach a target at Distant range, so a quarter of the missiles make it there.


I am not sure where you get 350 salvos from. Most of your crew seem to be gunners. With the military ECM suite plus ECM officers you could be getting pretty high Effect rolls. This represents 8400 missiles (which is a admittedly a lot).
400 Sensor Operators performing one action each: 350 EW the incoming missiles, 50 locks sensors on the missiles boats.

A few sensor locks will potentially be broken by the missile boats, we shoot at the good sensor locks next round. DM+2 is significant at Distant range...


I am not sure here that I would be spending all my gunners on the boats. By now you know you are facing 1000's of Salvos. I would probably not have been sitting still waiting for the attack
Half particle turrets (fighter defence), half laser turrets (missile defence). All have enough gunners.
The particle turrets shoots at the missile boats, the laser turrets do PD, all they can do at Distant range.


Whilst it is simpler to consider entirely destroyed Salvos, in reality what would really be the case is that there would be more salvos that were partially depleted.
Sure, but PD with DM+2 for triple turret and a good gunner, it's not much left.
The sad remains won't do significant damage or crits so I can't be bothered.


I think this says more about the target than the effectiveness of the missile salvo. With more Sensor Ops (or droids with that capability) none of the missiles need even have arrived. It would have been a walk over for the BC.
Sensor Operators need staterooms, meaning less weapons...
I don't do droids, that defeats the purpose of Traveller: People.

In round 11 you could have moved most of your gunners to additional point defence and just plugged at the boats them one at a time until they ran out of ammunition.
All laser turrets did PD, they can only act once per round. There is no lack of gunners.

One less missile in the final attack would have completely prevented an Effect 6+ critical. In thinning all the salvos rather than removing them entirely you might have taken more normal damage but you would would probably only have suffered a single sustained damage critical.
One PD action is against one salvo only.
PD batteries can spread, but they take a lot of space, hence less weapons...

But of course there were no criticals as there were no Large Bays.
No bay attacked, just missile salvoes from a variety of sources.
 
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Yes, I counted every case, with effect and armour:
View attachment 6382
The distribution is not linear or symmetric, so median damage is not a good clue to average damage.
That seems fair enough, I must have miscalculated. Apologies.
Agreed, declared before the attack roll.
I just assume we dodge the first attacks, and they are reduced to irrelevance. Hence the first few attacks produce no significant damage, then when there are no more dodges we get real attacks.
I doubt it makes much odds.
Minus the crit cascade... If we reduce a small ship to 80-90%, plus a few crits, plus eight cumulative crits, it's done...
If my damage calculation was wrong then it undermines my value anyway. It didn't seem to affect the outcome massively, I was just testing my undersatnding.
High Guard rules that the number of missiles in a salvo halves every five rounds. It takes ten rounds to reach a target at Distant range, so a quarter of the missiles make it there.
Completely missed that. Thank you.
This makes the EW more effective. If you can knock off one of the 24 early on then each halving reduces the number of missiles below the magic 6 on arrival. You can then focus your PD on any with 6 still in the salvo.
Of course you could negate that effect by paying a bit more for long range missiles and then the EW roll would need to be spectacular.
400 Sensor Operators performing one action each: 350 EW the incoming missiles, 50 locks sensors on the missiles boats.
So 350 salvos not destroyed cumulatively, they just need to be reduced below 24 for the halving to make them ineffective. Got it.
Half particle turrets (fighter defence), half laser turrets (missile defence). All have enough gunners.
The particle turrets shoots at the missile boats, the laser turrets do PD, all they can do at Distant range.
I misunderstood the PD section, I thought they were automated PD batteries. They might make sense as though they are 20 DTon and quite expensive they automatically remove 6D missile per type III battery. You would need a lot of gunners (and their accommodation) and turrets to provide the equivalent effect.
Sure, but PD with DM+2 for triple turret and a good gunner, it's not much left.
The sad remains won't significant damage or crits so I can't be bothered.

Sensor Operators need staterooms, meaning less weapons...
You wouldn't need the gunners on PD if you knocked the missiles down with EW. Maybe a case for a multi skilled crewman. If missiles were the big ship killer then doctrine would be more EW than PD. I guess the EW operators need to keep at it for each new wave of salvos.

You could use cheap droids or just run Electronics(Sensor) Expert packages on thousands of hand computers as RAW, but I know some people think that is a cheat (and it makes the power and cost of ships computers for their cost entirely silly).

You could obviously increase the crew without impacting cost or tonnage significantly (barracks for example).

I was worried that this analysis would end up coming down to choices outside the Missile vs Non-Missile bay.
All laser turrets did PD, they can only act once per round. There is no lack of gunners.
One PD action is against one salvo only.
PD batteries can spread, but they take a lot of space, hence less weapons...

No bay attacked, just missile salvoes from a variety of sources.
Then whence the criticals? You need at least a large bay to crit against a 100 kDton ship with an Effect 6+.
You say crits killed the BC, but it "only" took 8000 damage, less than the 10% for even a sustained damage crit.

Did I miss something?
 
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Ok. You made the opposition and what you consider to be a reasonable attacker. I'll take your missile boat and replace the Two Missile bays and munitions with a Particle Beam bay. It should be cheaper take up less space, but might need a larger power plant, so probably comes out even.
I have some delusions of survival so include some defences, still completely defenceless against missiles.
Need a much larger computer to maximise Fire Control and Evade:
MCr 175 is very comparable to the dual bay missile boat.
Skärmavbild 2025-10-24 kl. 20.41.50.png

The problem is generating crits at Distant range, without all the expensive tricks the capital ships used...

Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +5[FireCtrl] +5[size] -6[range] -3[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-2, 38% crit, 3% Crit4+.


It's only useful against some ships, has a difficult time hitting small targets, say missile boats.
 
I have some delusions of survival so include some defences, still completely defenceless against missiles.
Need a much larger computer to maximise Fire Control and Evade:
MCr 175 is very comparable to the dual bay missile boat.
View attachment 6383

The problem is generating crits at Distant range, without all the expensive tricks the capital ships used...

Effect = 2D + 5[Gunner] +5[FireCtrl] +5[size] -6[range] -3[evade] -8[difficulty] = 2D-2, 38% crit, 3% Crit4+.


It's only useful against some ships, has a difficult time hitting small targets, say missile boats.
But that seems more credible. It shoud be at least as survivable as the missile boat but with 36+ ships you are getting 4 Sev 1, 3 Sev2, 2 Sev3 and and a Sev4 every round. That seems better than the missile version?
 
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You wouldn't need the gunners on PD if you knocked the missiles down with EW. Maybe a case for a multi skilled crewman. If missiles were the big ship killer then doctrine would be more EW than PD.
Until someone came at you with a large multi-thousand missile salvo, where EW is ineffective and only PD can save you bacon...

A BB must be protected against many attack vectors to be survivable.


You could use cheap droids or just run Electronics(Sensor) Expert packages on thousands of hand computers as RAW, but I know some people think that is a cheat (and it makes the power and cost of ships computers for their cost entirely silly)
It makes for a very different game without crew. Most things are limited by hardware (such as PD), but unlimited sensor actions is just silly.

Meat-sacks has the advantage that we can boost them with augments fairly easily, achieving higher skill bonuses.



Then whence the criticals? You need at least a large bay to crit against a 100 kDton ship with an Effect 6+.
You say crits killed the BC, but it "only" took 8000 damage, less than the 10% for even a sustained damage crit.

Did I miss something?
Missile salvoes are not on the table of limited crits. Direct fire weapons are limited. Missiles use different rules.

I have difficulty seeing that two identical missiles launched from two different mount in the same salvo would have different criteria capability
 
But that seems more credible. It shoud be at least as survivable as the missile boat but with 36+ ships you are getting 4 Sev 1, 3 Sev2, 2 Sev3 and and a Sev4 every round. That seems better than the missile version?
Sure, until a missile boat turns up and changes the size DM+5 to DM-2, and adds a dodge DM-5. No damage or crits then...

With no PD, mediocre EW and only a few operators the bay ship is helpless against missiles... And fighters... And...


With credible defences the bay boat becomes much larger and more expensive.
 
Until someone came at you with a large multi-thousand missile salvo, where EW is ineffective and only PD can save you bacon...
If EW cannot save you I am not sure the equivalent amount of PD would fare any better. But that is another discussion.
A BB must be protected against many attack vectors to be survivable.
You can be both too specialised and too generalised. This is why dedicated EW boats are useful as fleet auxiliiaries.
It makes for a very different game without crew. Most things are limited by hardware (such as PD), but unlimited sensor actions is just silly.
I am inclined to agree to be honest but it needed pointing out for completeness.
Meat-sacks has the advantage that we can boost them with augments fairly easily, achieving higher skill bonuses.
That is true, and we need to manufacture droids, we can breed replacement meta bags :)
Missile salvoes are not on the table of limited crits. Direct fire weapons are limited. Missiles use different rules.

I have difficulty seeing that two identical missiles launched from two different mount in the same salvo would have different criteria capability
That was the original query that started me down this route. Some people asserted missiles couldn't critical at all as it made them too powerful. I think at least this showed that is not necessarily the case. As with all things it is often about other factors being balanced.

I'm glad to have talked this out, I think it was worth doing and I am glad we pulled it back from where it was getting a bit frosty at one point.
 
I misunderstood the PD section, I thought they were automated PD batteries. They might make sense as though they are 20 DTon and quite expensive they automatically remove 6D missile per type III battery. You would need a lot of gunners (and their accommodation) and turrets to provide the equivalent effect.
As usual stack as many DMs as you can and turret PD is surprisingly effective.

Turret PD is limited by hardpoints, PDBatteries by tonnage. Warships generally have a problem with tonnage...
 
Sure, until a missile boat turns up and changes the size DM+5 to DM-2, and adds a dodge DM-5. No damage or crits then...

With no PD, mediocre EW and only a few operators the bay ship is helpless against missiles... And fighters... And...


With credible defences the bay boat becomes much larger and more expensive.
Every measure has a counter measure. The exercise was not to prove a beam bay ship was better than a missile bay ship, just that a missile bay ship was not always better than a beam ship. In a well designed Navy they both have their place. Combined arms warfare is the key, just like real world Navy strike groups that combine aircraft carriers, missile carriers, and auxiliaries.

And I hadn't spotted the -2 and -4 rule for bays for smaller ships either. This is why I avoid space ship combat, I had enough of this sort of thing with Car Wars and I had 20 odd years getting that under my belt. Doubtless there are a gazzillion other random rules buried in supplements as well that I am unaware of.

Thank you for building the ships for the discussion. It would have been easy to just make me work it all out (but we'd have been here weeks) :)
 
If EW cannot save you I am not sure the equivalent amount of PD would fare any better. But that is another discussion.
Many small salvoes are best dealt with by EW, a few massive salvoes are best dealt with by PD. We need both.

With a few thousand sensor operators the BC would have shrugged off the many small salvoes, but at what cost to other systems?


You can be both too specialised and too generalised. This is why dedicated EW boats are useful as fleet auxiliiaries.
Agreed, and that is basically the smaller DE in the second example, hence it performed better against missiles. The problem is that with few Hull points they are much easier to kill than larger ships, and then you have a problem...


That is true, and we need to manufacture droids, we can breed replacement meta bags :)
On the other hand we don't need decades to train them...


I'm glad to have talked this out, I think it was worth doing and I am glad we pulled it back from where it was getting a bit frosty at one point.
Agreed.
 
Among my ships, I have a 7,500-ton Sorcerer EW ship. I think I stuffed 300 plus sensor stations on it. I also have 1,600-ton craft with large bays to harm big ships.
 
Every measure has a counter measure. The exercise was not to prove a beam bay ship was better than a missile bay ship, just that a missile bay ship was not always better than a beam ship. In a well designed Navy they both have their place. Combined arms warfare is the key, just like real world Navy strike groups that combine aircraft carriers, missile carriers, and auxiliaries.
Missiles are a curious exception. Some missiles will just be stopped by mediocre EW and PD, but a massive amount of missiles can be devastating. Generally go all in on missiles, or leave it alone. HG'22 made missiles much worse, but still...


And I hadn't spotted the -2 and -4 rule for bays for smaller ships either. This is why I avoid space ship combat, I had enough of this sort of thing with Car Wars and I had 20 odd years getting that under my belt. Doubtless there are a gazzillion other random rules buried in supplements as well that I am unaware of.
Quite, the rules are spread out and every new book changes something about ship design or combat...
 
I just remembered the container dogfight missiles in the companion, but that would still only be at most 16 missiles knocked out per hard point and can only be fire once.

Before we leave the subject does Broad Spectrum EW only affect missiles on their initial launch (and only within Long Range) or does it affect missile salvos when they come into long range and if so does it continue to affect them every round thereafter.
 
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Before we leave the subject does Broad Spectrum EW only affect missiles on their initial launch (and only within Long Range) or does it affect missile salvos when they come into long range and if so does it continue to affect them every round thereafter.

Yes, the rule is very specific and limited:
HG'22, p74:
A single electronic warfare action (with no crew skill DM applied) is automatically performed against any and all enemy salvoes launched within Long range. Each salvo can still only be subjected to one electronic warfare action, so manual attempts to disrupt salvoes should be performed beforehand.

I would be tempted to relax that, but on the other hand that would perhaps be too good, so rather not?
 
Yes, the rule is very specific and limited:
I would be tempted to relax that, but on the other hand that would perhaps be too good, so rather not?
Actually it doesn't matter thinking about it. You only get 1 round before the attack step at Long range anyway so getting another attempt isn't relevant.

At most you could allow it to affect missiles that crossed into Long range, but detecting the launch seems to be a limitation.
 
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