Rules Clarification: COMBAT CRYOJET (FC pg112)

[Yenaldlooshi]

From the Field Catalog pg 112: UNIFIED SPACE INDUSTRIES COMBAT CRYOJET

"Breaker shells launch a pattern of small explosive
charges with an adhesive head, which detonate almost
instantly upon fixing to the target. They can be fired as
a combat round but more commonly they are used to
shatter something made brittle by the cryogenic fluid. If
a breaker round is used with the cryogenic fluid, this is
treated as a single attack. Alternatively the breaker can
be launched after the target has been given a thorough
hosing with cryogenic fluid. Either way, the end result is
to double the damage delivered by the cryogenic fluid."

Damage is listed as:
Cryojet=4D (8D with breaker)
and
Breaker Rounds=3D

My questions:

• How can it work in the same round as a single attack if both fluid and breaker travel together? How can the item freeze in that millisecond of impact? Is it a delayed second shot that just takes less than a combat round?
• When using breaker and cryojet, is it 8D+3D or just the 8D? Does this mean we really just double the dice and not the damage itself per the text for that 8D?
• Can I use 4D cryojet only on a target for 3 rounds then use the breaker and double all the damage (or dice) previously to the attack, with (possibly) the 3D from the breaker?
• This is billed as a tool and not a weapon, shouldn't it have at least a -2 to attack for not being designed as a weapon? (laser cutting tools have this)
• Is this item a little OP for a non-weapon in combat?
  

 

[Limpin Legin]

This is billed as a tool and not a weapon, shouldn't it have at least a -2 to attack for not being designed as a weapon? (laser cutting tools have this)

I suspect the Cryojet of CSC is the tool but the Combat Cryojet in table on FC page 113 is the weaponised version of the tool.

How can it work in the same round as a single attack if both fluid and breaker travel together? How can the item freeze in that millisecond of impact? Is it a delayed second shot that just takes less than a combat round?

For game purposes, they are fired together, but this does not mean they arrive in tandem. Plus your quote says that the breaker shells have an adhesive head which sticks on impact. Then there is momentarily delay before detonation. It is pretty extreme so maybe only a short moment of freezing is needed prior to detonation.

Does this mean we really just double the dice and not the damage itself

CRB rules that Damage (pg77) is defined by the number of dice inflicted, not the effect score of the actual attack roll.

Can I use 4D cryojet only on a target for 3 rounds then use the breaker and double all the damage (or dice) previously to the attack, with (possibly) the 3D from the breaker?

I don't imagine damage to be accumulative over multiple rounds, otherwise it would be listed as a trait like the Fire trait on Flamethrowers lasts several rounds.

Is this item a little OP for a non-weapon in combat?

The base damage is same as flamethrower. the combat cryojet has less traits but has this breaker shell instead.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Thanks for the detailed response! I found this really helpful.

I suspect the Cryojet of CSC is the tool but the Combat Cryojet in table on FC page 113 is the weaponised version of the tool.

I actually never noticed any of the Cryo weapons in CSC. Seems to me if one allows both (which I would) the one in the CSC should have the chance at the double damage breakage rule.

For game purposes, they are fired together, but this does not mean they arrive in tandem. Plus your quote says that the breaker shells have an adhesive head which sticks on impact. Then there is momentarily delay before detonation. It is pretty extreme so maybe only a short moment of freezing is needed prior to detonation.

though I thought of the idea it could be spaced apart a couple of seconds, I didn't notice the adhesive remark. Now it makes complete sense. Thanks.

CRB rules that Damage (pg77) is defined by the number of dice inflicted, not the effect score of the actual attack roll.

I wasn't talking about attack roll effect. Let me elaborate; the RAW in the FC states " the end result is to double the damage delivered by the cryogenic fluid" which taken literally means you roll 4D then multiply by 2. However, since the table below give 4D then 8D if using breaker, I think the worded description is just inconsistent. It should have read; "the end result is to double the damage dice delivered by the cryogenic fluid"

I don't imagine damage to be accumulative over multiple rounds, otherwise it would be listed as a trait like the Fire trait on Flamethrowers lasts several rounds.

The base damage is same as flamethrower. the combat cryojet has less traits but has this breaker shell instead.

Again, here let me clarify. The damage is not accumulative over multiple rounds, but the way this description is written, there are two potential levels of damage. Let me give two examples:

First Example:
I fire the cryojet on round one. It does 4D. For whatever reason, I held off firing the breaker.
Next round I fire the breaker. Now I add 4D more per the doubling of the dice to 8D total, and then I add 3D more for the breaker ? (or is that included in the 8D total?)


Second example:
I start to hose down a target with CryoJet. I do NOT use the breaker round just yet. 4D damage only.
Next round= same attack= 4D damage
Third round= same attack but this time with the breaker round= 4D damage +4D+4D+4D to give all 3 previous attack round the doubling of the 4D. The I am guessing another 3D for the breaker's damage itself.

This would match what the description says when it states "Alternatively the breaker can be launched after the target has been given a thorough
hosing with cryogenic fluid." This is how you can handle that alternate case.

Do you seen any issue with that interpretation of the RAW here? Also, I am correct that the breaker itself should get its 3D as added and not just included, right? Someone could say that the 3D on the table is ONLY if it was fired by itself and not part of a Cryo-breakage attempt.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Worth noting too that breaker rounds are not the only way to do double damage dice. FCpg26 indicates a tap with maybe a crowbar or less could initiate the extra damage dice.

 

[Limpin Legin]

"the end result is to double the damage dice delivered by the cryogenic fluid"

Yes that is how I understood Damage to be defined on pg77, CRB; it appears that "Damage" means "Damage Dice".

Do you seen any issue with that interpretation of the RAW here?

Yes I understood your two examples. Sorry I used "accumulative" as that seems to have confused the message in my reply. All I wanted to say that IMO, if you do +4D+4D+4D cryo damage, and then fire the breaker, the breaker itself does one extra 4D (i.e. the breaker DOSNT do an extra +4D+4D+4D [three lots of 4D]). {See the last three paragraphs of this reply for why I think that.}

Do you seen any issue with that interpretation of the RAW here?

I think your interpretation of RAW is fair, just that it is possible to argue that nowhere does it say "the breaker does 3D damage PLUS double the cryo damage", so I would interpret that it meant "the breaker does either 3D damage on it's own OR double the cryo damage if used together with the cryo." - what do you think?

Someone could say that the 3D on the table is ONLY if it was fired by itself and not part of a Cryo-breakage attempt.

Yes, I think that is how I would have preferred to have interpreted it: 3D if not aided by cryo or an extra 4D otherwise.

Thinking about what is actually happening is that you are freezing the target material and if you stop firing the cryo liquid, what is going to happen is that the material is going to warm up until it reaches room temperature (or body temperature) , so I would have liked a ruling where the target warms up within D3 or D6 combat rounds. So the breaker shell needs to be fired within that time for it to have the double damage effect.

Plus, once the cryo has been fired at a target area, then the target material has reached the critical temperature , so extra applications of cryo jet has no additional effect, or maybe just holds the temperature for longer. I would have liked to see a 'frostbite' trait or a 'brittle' trait that captures this sort characteristic. {Not sure if any of that helps find an answer to your question. My ramblings aside, your ruling seems a fair interpretation, even if I would have preferred my reasoning.}

The other assumption being made is that if the breaker and cryo are fired together than there only need be the one Task Check for firing the weapon. But if the cryo and breaker are fired on separate rounds, then the Task Check needs to be re-rolled for the two separate shots, before the Damage(s) are calculated.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Thinking about what is actually happening is that you are freezing the target material and if you stop firing the cryo liquid, what is going to happen is that the material is going to warm up until it reaches room temperature (or body temperature) , so I would have liked a ruling where the target warms up within D3 or D6 combat rounds. So the breaker shell needs to be fired within that time for it to have the double damage effect.

I hear you about the warming up aspect, but how fast could this material warm up in the space of a couple of combat rounds? We are still talking mere seconds.

Remember the wording of the rule after is says; "If a breaker round is used with the cryogenic fluid, this is treated as a single attack." It goes on to say right after; "Alternatively the breaker can be launched after the target has been given a thorough hosing with cryogenic fluid. Either way, the end result is to double the damage delivered by the cryogenic fluid."

How would you handle this alternative for double damage other than to add the missing dice? What would be the advantage or mechanic to track a "thorough hosing", as the rules say, to determine this?

Regarding a warm-up time frame, though there is not an explicit ruling, I would say there is an implied ruling from the texts about Cryo found in the CSC where they say if a target in a sealed suit fails a STR check, then they cannot move for 1D rounds. It seems obvious this 1D rounds is meant to reflect a warming up time frame. I would take this as a defacto time limit on the freeze-wait-break scenario too.

I think we need to imagine what these rules are inspired by. I am thinking something hit with liquid nitrogen matches what they are taking about. It freezes things instantly, and those things can easily shatter when struck with something. It could happen within the same 6 seconds or it might also still happen if you waited 36 seconds. I get that it is a fictional substance called "cryo", but L-Nitro would be the real world allegorical inspiration for it.

Plus, once the cryo has been fired at a target area, then the target material has reached the critical temperature , so extra applications of cryo jet has no additional effect, or maybe just holds the temperature for longer.

This but also it might cover a greater area of the target than the one application, hence more damage dice

The other assumption being made is that if the breaker and cryo are fired together than there only need be the one Task Check for firing the weapon. But if the cryo and breaker are fired on separate rounds, then the Task Check needs to be re-rolled for the two separate shots, before the Damage(s) are calculated.

Yes, agreed, so in one case, you might not want to apply, wait, break because of the extra task checks. If you do one and done, then you only have to do the one task check.

But if you do the 'thorough hosing', and of course, you have to do multiple checks with missing perhaps indicating where you applied cryo to the target in a way that either did not hit or just covered the same area ineffectively, BUT if you make your extra checks, you have a better chance of having the damage penetrate armor, since armor would only get its one defense during the breaker attack.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I hear you about the warming up aspect, but how fast could this material warm up in the space of a couple of combat rounds? We are still talking mere seconds.

Remember the wording of the rule after is says; "If a breaker round is used with the cryogenic fluid, this is treated as a single attack." It goes on to say right after; "Alternatively the breaker can be launched after the target has been given a thorough hosing with cryogenic fluid. Either way, the end result is to double the damage delivered by the cryogenic fluid."

How would you handle this alternative for double damage other than to add the missing dice? What would be the advantage or mechanic to track a "thorough hosing", as the rules say, to determine this?

Regarding a warm-up time frame, though there is not an explicit ruling, I would say there is an implied ruling from the texts about Cryo found in the CSC where they say if a target in a sealed suit fails a STR check, then they cannot move for 1D rounds. It seems obvious this 1D rounds is meant to reflect a warming up time frame. I would take this as a defacto time limit on the freeze-wait-break scenario too.

I think we need to imagine what these rules are inspired by. I am thinking something hit with liquid nitrogen matches what they are taking about. It freezes things instantly, and those things can easily shatter when struck with something. It could happen within the same 6 seconds or it might also still happen if you waited 36 seconds. I get that it is a fictional substance called "cryo", but L-Nitro would be the real world allegorical inspiration for it.


This but also it might cover a greater area of the target than the one application, hence more damage dice

Yes, agreed, so in one case, you might not want to apply, wait, break because of the extra task checks. If you do one and done, then you only have to do the one task check.

But if you do the 'thorough hosing', and of course, you have to do multiple checks with missing perhaps indicating where you applied cryo to the target in a way that either did not hit or just covered the same area ineffectively, BUT if you make your extra checks, you have a better chance of having the damage penetrate armor, since armor would only get its one defense during the breaker attack.

This is from the Field Catalogue, yes? That might be the problem. The FC is extremely poorly thought out and its system for building weapons doesn't even work. It is unsurprising that there are issues of clarity like you are discussing as well.

 

[Limpin Legin]

I hear you about the warming up aspect, but how fast could this material warm up in the space of a couple of combat rounds?

Two combat rounds would be twelve seconds. That sounds a very short timeframe, and maybe 2 combat rounds is too short. But, if you think about it, we are not looking for the time it takes to reach room/body temperatures, we only need to satisfy whether the target temperature meets the "brittle" threshold required for the breaker to make a difference.

Anyway, this is not in the rules-as-written. It is just thinking out aloud for some possible house rule.

What would be the advantage or mechanic to track a "thorough hosing", as the rules say, to determine this?

the potential advantage is on CSC page 151, as it says there is chance (Average STR check) that the target is frozen to the spot for D6 rounds.

That might make the target more vulnerable to attacks from anyone in line-of-sight. Or might give the operative time to get closer and possibly conserve ammo if in short supply of breaker shells.

could also use this rule as the time-window for shooting the breaker. Once the target is moving again, then maybe it is too warm for the breaker to be effective?

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

could also use this rule as the time-window for shooting the breaker. Once the target is moving again, then maybe it is too warm for the breaker to be effective?

Zackly my thought!

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

This is from the Field Catalogue, yes? That might be the problem. The FC is extremely poorly thought out and its system for building weapons doesn't even work. It is unsurprising that there are issues of clarity like you are discussing as well.

Honestly, almost every rule I try to implement across all the books, seems to require extra clarification once I imagine how players might use it or question it. I wasn't going to touch that weapons building set of rules with a 10' pole. The items listed in it and the customs and habits mentioned in it seems like material I can work with.

All of this came about from me researching how a team of PC's might clear a ship. I started researching all the rules I could find for defeating iris valves and hatches, which also meant looking at the rules for damaging inanimate objects. That is how the CryoJet and then its other cryo-cousins came to my attention. I am still sifting the wheat from the chaff from CSC, FC, SF, COMP, Death Station, and JTAS10 as to which basic rule set+ my House Rule clarifications I intend to use for the act of clearing a ship with closed iris valves, hatches and interior sliding doors as obstacles.