Researching New Technology

You know, scientists in the Traveller Campaign aren't Wizards, an "Absent-Minded Professor" campaign where the scientist invents flubber, or invisibility or a shrink ray doesn't quite fit into the setting, that's my opinion anyway, what do you think? Anyway you have the problem of if the player character keeps on inventing stuff, where does this stop, whats to prevent the "Munchkins" from getting loose?

You can do whatever you want, its just that I had some experience running a Traveller campaign that was quite ridiculous.
 
Well, my thoughts on the issue is that jump tech requires a certain percent of the hull dedicated to fuel. You require 10% of the hull per jump level to be set aside for jump fuel. So J-6 would require 60% while J-7 would require 70%. A J-10 would require 100% of the hull in jump fuel, leaving no room for the jump drive or anything else.

Well, technically one could use drop tanks (High Guard p. 43) to get around the need for ships to carry it's own jump fuel. However, one becomes dependent on the local logistics for increased jump capability as one can't take a drop tank with them (and get the advantage that drop tanks are supposed to give while doing so).

Back to my point. I think there is much value in being able to require less jump fuel as it would be a factor that would need to be addressed as ships get greater jump ranges. You would need to make sacrifices to make more room for the extra fuel. This sacrifice is a big reason why combat ships without jump capabilities are considered more dangerous than any similar ship with jump capability. Such ships don't need to factor in jump capability when deciding to add more guns, heavier armor, or bigger M-Drives. Even ships that aren't designed for combat could use the extra space for something. For instance, trading ships could use the extra space for something that could pay the bills, like more cargo.
 
DivineWrath said:
Well, my thoughts on the issue is that jump tech requires a certain percent of the hull dedicated to fuel. You require 10% of the hull per jump level to be set aside for jump fuel. So J-6 would require 60% while J-7 would require 70%. A J-10 would require 100% of the hull in jump fuel, leaving no room for the jump drive or anything else.

Well, technically one could use drop tanks (High Guard p. 43) to get around the need for ships to carry it's own jump fuel. However, one becomes dependent on the local logistics for increased jump capability as one can't take a drop tank with them (and get the advantage that drop tanks are supposed to give while doing so).

Back to my point. I think there is much value in being able to require less jump fuel as it would be a factor that would need to be addressed as ships get greater jump ranges. You would need to make sacrifices to make more room for the extra fuel. This sacrifice is a big reason why combat ships without jump capabilities are considered more dangerous than any similar ship with jump capability. Such ships don't need to factor in jump capability when deciding to add more guns, heavier armor, or bigger M-Drives. Even ships that aren't designed for combat could use the extra space for something. For instance, trading ships could use the extra space for something that could pay the bills, like more cargo.
Get a jump drive that runs on antimatter. Since matter/antimatter annihillation produces 100 times the energy of hydrogen fusion, you should be able to power a Jump-100 with it. Of course matter and antimatter would have to fill 10% of the ship's volume...
 
I was thinking Mongoose Traveller rules when I made my last post. Am I correct to assume you were referring to a different rule system with you talk with antimatter?

From what I understand, Mongoose Traveller jump drives don't use fuel for energy, it uses the hydrogen to create a bubble of boiling hot hydrogen to protect the ship while in jump space. Antimatter or not, it is not something that antimatter can replace... unless you know something that I don't.
 
Okay, real quick. From Spacecraft operations page 141, the jump drive get power from the power plant using hydrogen fuel to produce the effect of opening a passage to another space while the jump fuel becomes part of a protective field within that space. It's that cloud around the ship that demands a pure hydrogen source. An anti-matter engine will use a-m to power the jump but the jump engine still need its hydrogen to make the 'bubble'.
 
Of course, a 100 dTon tank of water contains more hydrogen atoms than a 100 dTon tank of Liquid Hydrogen.
So reducing the SPACE required for jump fuel just requires advanced 'Purifier' technology to separate hydrogen from water fast enough to feed the jump bubble.

The goal of reducing the volume of jump fuel is not inherently insurmountable ... the question becomes why isn't everyone doing it?
That is a matter of game balance ... which is a very In Your Traveller Universe sort of thing.
 
Wait, a volume filled with liquid water at 4 Celsius, of which each two hydrogen atoms are held at a distance from an oxygen atom which is a jump contaminant and a much larger atom by itself, has more hydrogen than the same volume of pure liquid hydrogen? I might be a bit confused.
 
Here's a couple research options:

You could assume Jump 7 does exist at TL 16. The engine has been invented, but the fuel requirements is not at 70% of the ship's volume, but at some higher % (over 100%) and research is ongoing to reduce the fuel cost down to the expected 70%. Your researcher could be one of those given a grant to spend on booze and ... er, such research. There could even be a prize for the first person(s) to achieve that goal ("The Jump 70 Prize", or "The Hyperspace 70 Bubble Prize").

Another option is that the jump engine is much larger than it theoretically could be (based on the progression of the current engines), so research is ongoing to make a smaller version.

Or, since Maneuver Drives haven't exceeded 6Gs (officially by the rules AFAIK), perhaps due to limitations of those magical inertial compensators (IC), research could involve improving IC tech.
 
Reynard said:
Wait, a volume filled with liquid water at 4 Celsius, of which each two hydrogen atoms are held at a distance from an oxygen atom which is a jump contaminant and a much larger atom by itself, has more hydrogen than the same volume of pure liquid hydrogen? I might be a bit confused.
Atomic weight of Hydrogen is 1
Atomic weight of Oxygen is 16

1 dTon = 14 cubic meters = 14,000,000 cubic centimeters
1 dTon of LH2 = 14,000,000 cc x 0.07 g/cc = 980,000 g = 980 kg of Hydrogen
1 dTon of H2O = 14,000,000 cc x 1 g/cc = 14,000,000 g = 14,000 kg of H2O
Since water is 2/18 hydrogen: 14,000 kg of H2O x 2/18 = 1,555 kg of Hydrogen

980/1555 = 0.63 ... So every 10 dTons of LH2 becomes 6.3 dTons of H2O.

(Of course, 1 dTon of LH2 weighs less than 1 metric ton, while 1 dTon of water weighs 14 metric tons ... but starships are volume based, not weight based.)
 
Now I need it explained how adding a very large oxygen atom makes the volume of every two hydrogen atoms in the same space less while not polluting the jump bubble.
 
Reynard said:
Now I need it explained how adding a very large oxygen atom makes the volume of every two hydrogen atoms in the same space less while not polluting the jump bubble.
That's where the new purifier technology comes in ... To quickly process unrefined fuel (water) into refined fuel (LH2) fast enough to feed the JD and fill the jump bubble.

The LOX left as a residual in the tanks can be sold at the next port or evacuated into normal spec after the Jump.
 
Still didn't explain how the volume of a water molecule at 4 degrees Celsius containing 2 hydrogen and a huge oxygen is far less than 2 hydrogen alone at their liquid temperature of 33 Kelvin.

It take hours to purify unrefined (including water) fuel. It is not processed instantly at the moment of jump power up. The impurities are dumped out as the process runs because the tanks need to carry the fuel for jump and power plant operation.
 
Mirja said:
How (if) you would allow that as a GM, how would you resolve a player for doing this?
If not, why?

I generally wouldn't allow it.

Reason 1: It'd change the universe.

I know this is a real boring objection. But it really would. Because your player has singlehandedly moved Jump Drive technology from TL16 to TL17 or TL17 to TL18 or whatever. Most players don't really think of what TL is, but this is exactly what TL describes: Evolutionary improvements to existing technology with the occasional revolutionary development thrown in.

If some scientist developed a drive of the kind your player wants to develop, in game terms it'd only mean a small difference in performance. In the game's "reality" it'd be a huge change. The scientist would literally be a celebrity for developing such a thing alone. Beyond that, she'd be famous within the jump drive manufacturer's societies. Big companies would offer nearly unthinkable amounts of money to buy her concepts off of her. The Emperor would invite her and shower her with titles. Within decades, pretty much every ship in the universe will have switched over to the new drive design.

Obviously, if you want you can take the more dark approach and have agents or whatever trying to kill/capture her to keep the secret to themselves, but I really doubt it. A design change like what the player would be some evolutionary development; while it's boring, megacorps and the Imperium are more likely to simply wave a bunch of money in her face instead of doing something more violent; these groups have tons of money, and if someone can be bought everyone is happy.

Mirja said:
has convinced the oother players to have an extra stateroom as her workshop.

Reason 2: The lone scientist, working alone, in some basement workshop is pretty much a myth.

Complex technological development is something that requires millions, billions, or even more of (insert currency here) poured into R&D over years to develop, due to the complexity of devices. A Jump Drive is an extremely complex and expensive device. It'll require a lot more than a simple spare stateroom to do development.

My assumption is that the desire to make Jump Drives better in some way is shared by hundreds of other organizations, pretty much all of them vastly more wealthy than your player. These groups keep up on and fund research being done at universities and similar places and they're all pushing at the TL barrier to push TL to the next one. Once a discovery is made, it will require years (or given the slow pace of technological advancement in the Imperium, decades) before it becomes something usable. During this time, the original development might change, be refined, so many times it hardly even resembles the original concept.

Reason 3: It's Unfair to the Other Players.

Things like money, power, and recognition are the reasons why players typically adventure. Making such a momentous discovery would fulfill all of them and make her the most important member of your adventuring group by far, creating an Out-Of-Character power imbalance. She might continue to adventure, but now the other players would be her lackeys/friends on her private yacht; getting audiences with nobles will be ridiculously easy, she just needs to drop her name and get invited to parties. Basically, her celebrity and power will have replaced slews of skills of other players.

Why is it that just one of your players is able to make some momentous discovery while everyone else cannot? Just because she asked while nobody else did? Why is it that she can do this with this out-of-character expectation of success at some point while other tasks in the game are uncertain? What would you do if I rolled up a character who had about 100k credits due to mustering out and simply said, "By the way, I invest this in the stock market. I know my ship won't come in immediately, but eventually it'll pay out and my character will reap a reward of hundreds of millions of credits. I'd like to have a stateroom so I can have a computer to keep track of all my financial transactions."

Okay, to stop being a killjoy:

Now as a GM I like to work with players and not flat-out tell them "no." I've given you the reasons why you shouldn't do it. Now I can give you some reasons how you could integrate something like this into your game:

1) Inform your player that success is not certain and unlikely.

2) If you enjoy letting your players be extraordinary individuals, you should let everyone be extraordinary in some way, not just one player.

3) If you're okay with #2, then perhaps your player has come up with some idea, some inspiration from somewhere. It doesn't matter where. For whatever reason, instead of simply patenting the idea or selling it (again, for the aforementioned millions), she's decided to develop it on her own. The concept likely to not actually be new; it's probably that the approach has been tried before, but there's some sort of problem with it and nobody has ever gotten it to work right (or perhaps, nobody has ever made it safe enough for sane people to use), despite repeated tries and lots of money fruitlessly invested in it in the past. As a result, most places have given up on it; your player simply has some approach that she thinks will work; obviously nobody is going to help your player develop some technology that's considered a dead-end.

4) At some point she'll leave the adventuring party because her discovery moves to a point where she is going to have to get a bigger lab, more money, more everything to move her idea forward. Her time with the group would be simply enough take her idea and perhaps struggle to research it sufficiently so she can prove to some megacorporate lab or university science department that her approach has merit and is worth pouring money into. Until then, she's going to need to have the highest TL components to tinker with; she can't go mess with the ship's Jump Drive. She'd need to find TL15 or TL16 components to work on because that's the state of the art and she's singlehandedly trying to push things past that.
 
Also realize that character will have done something Grandfather can't do even after 300,00 years and indescribable resources. You don't want Grandfather coming for you. Remember the Mice from Hitchhiker's Guide? Diced...
 
One last obnoxious thought ... we have been assuming that the player will succeed.

How about the Dean Drive in real life ... one could spend a lifetime pursuing a game changer technology breakthrough ... that just never happens.
He can get close, but it never quite works.

Perhaps there is some other breakthrough, outside of his field, that needs to occur to make all of his research click into place.
As soon as the world achieves TL 17 as 'cutting edge' research, He/She will be positioned to be the leader in applied TL 16 Drive Technology.

... But as long as it is TL 15 and 'cutting edge' research is TL 16, the character does his impersonation of Nikola Tesla and wireless power transmission ... almost, but no cigar.
 
Reynard said:
Okay, real quick. From Spacecraft operations page 141, the jump drive get power from the power plant using hydrogen fuel to produce the effect of opening a passage to another space while the jump fuel becomes part of a protective field within that space. It's that cloud around the ship that demands a pure hydrogen source. An anti-matter engine will use a-m to power the jump but the jump engine still need its hydrogen to make the 'bubble'.

Here is a possible fix, use the antimatter to shred a lump of osmium, the densest natural element on the periodic table, into a spray of protons and electrons through atomic fission. Atomic fission of Osmium into hydrogen requires an energy input, which the antimatter supplies, the Osmium gets converted into a cloud of hydrogen that satisfies the requirements of the Jump Drive, and through this means jump numbers higher than 10 become possible. How many hydrogen atoms can an atom of osmium make? A single atom of osmium can make 76 hydrogen atoms as its atomic number is 76. The density of Osmium is 22.562 grams per cubic centimeter. The most common isotope of Osmium is Osmium 190, which has 114 neutrons and 76 protons so 0.4 of its mass is protons, from which we make hydrogen effective density is 9.0248 grams per cubic centimeter. Hydrogen is 70.85 kg per meter cubed, the effective density of Osmium in like terms is 9024.8 kg per cubic meter or 9 tons of liquid hydrogen stored in each cubic meter Since there is 14 cubic meters in a displacement ton Each displacement ton of storage can hold 126.3472 tons of hydrogen, you just have to produce all this hydrogen at the moment you initiate the jump, which means lots of energy needs to be released to shred the Osmium into the hydrogen you need to make the jump Okay, lets say we have a scout ship with 20 tons of fuel storage, we load this up with Osmium, fuel the antimatter reactor, and the scout ship effectively has 2526.944 tons of hydrogen ready to be made divided by a 100 ton hull equals 25.26944 times the ships volume, since you need 100% of the ship's volume in liquid hydrogen to make a theoretical Jump 10, this should enable a Jump 252 in the same volume of fuel storage that will get you a jump 2 in a normal Scout/Courier!, this is fast enough to hold a Galactic Empire together!
 
Reynard said:
Still didn't explain how the volume of a water molecule at 4 degrees Celsius containing 2 hydrogen and a huge oxygen is far less than 2 hydrogen alone at their liquid temperature of 33 Kelvin.

It take hours to purify unrefined (including water) fuel. It is not processed instantly at the moment of jump power up. The impurities are dumped out as the process runs because the tanks need to carry the fuel for jump and power plant operation.

Chemistry

Different substances have different DENSITIES based on a LOT of things, not just how much mass each molecule has. Water is actually pretty dense for a liquid, so there are a lot more molecules per volume. Hydrogen is actualy NOT very dense; so from a reality point of view, liquid Hydrogen is a poor fuel since water is much more available, has more hydrogen atoms per volume, can be stored at room temperture instead of at cryogenic temperatures and hydrogen has a habit of difussing through other substances (even metals) that would be a problem for material science (it is a big deal today in a lot of fields) but water would not have that problem.

Traveller uses the idea of liquid hydrogen, but there are a lot of other substances that would actually be a better fuel to store if you were needing those hydrogen atoms for fusion or some kind of "jump bubble". Ammonia is also a good, high density fuel with lots of hydrogen atoms, but is a bit corrosive and hard to store.

You have to squint a bit and close one eye when looking too closely at the entier process of the Jump Drive.
 
This sounds like the sort of thing that will bring hours of fun to a GM and players. I would pick some or all of these as the requirements:

  • It's going to require ## creds
  • It's going to require some weird parts that you can only find on ### world
  • You'll need a specialized workshop with ###.
  • It's going to need a lot of maintenance compared to the standard version
  • It's going to require ### time and testing
  • You'll need to enlist the services of ### to help you design it.
 
Water has more density because the molecule has a whooping huge oxygen atom attached to it, not because there's somehow more hydrogen. There's going to be a lot more H2 molecules at 33 Kelvin in the same space occupied by a water molecule which must be at 277 Kelvin to be at its densest state.

Even if water some how has more hydrogen in the same volume as pure liquid hydrogen, the cracking and purifying process in the game system would never allow anything close to efficient use of the hydrogen, it takes a long time to make constant quantities. Same goes for the hydrogen needed to feed the jump drive quick enough create the bubble. For Traveller, water stinks.

As to water being more available than hydrogen, what are those gas giants in the majority of systems and how much purer in hydrogen?
 
Reynard said:
Water has more density because the molecule has a whooping huge oxygen atom attached to it, not because there's somehow more hydrogen. There's going to be a lot more H2 molecules at 33 Kelvin in the same space occupied by a water molecule which must be at 277 Kelvin to be at its densest state.
I have no interest in debating hard about imaginary technology or physics (so there YMMV), but I provided the math for this ...
atpollard said:
Atomic weight of Hydrogen is 1
Atomic weight of Oxygen is 16

1 dTon = 14 cubic meters = 14,000,000 cubic centimeters
1 dTon of LH2 = 14,000,000 cc x 0.07 g/cc = 980,000 g = 980 kg of Hydrogen
1 dTon of H2O = 14,000,000 cc x 1 g/cc = 14,000,000 g = 14,000 kg of H2O
Since water is 2/18 hydrogen: 14,000 kg of H2O x 2/18 = 1,555 kg of Hydrogen

980/1555 = 0.63 ... So every 10 dTons of LH2 becomes 6.3 dTons of H2O.

(Of course, 1 dTon of LH2 weighs less than 1 metric ton, while 1 dTon of water weighs 14 metric tons ... but starships are volume based, not weight based.)

1 dTon of liquid H2 contains 980 kg of hydrogen.
1 dTon of liquid H2O contains 1,555 kg of Hydrogen

... there is more hydrogen in the same size space occupied by liquid water than liquid hydrogen.
 
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