Removing Hardpoint Limits: Necessity or Heresy?

For the OTU: Heresy heathen, Heresy.

If one is looking for a detail, look at TNE's Fire, Fusion and Steel. The design sequence there calculated the surface area of the ship's volume and items like radiators for the HEPlar drive, opening for the spinal weapon focus, sensor arrays and so on took up surface area, not just volume. Spinal weapons also had an impact requiring a ship to have a minimal lengths. I have attributed that Hardpoints which were in CT Book 2, were a predecessor to all the detail found in TNE book or your question had been asked before and TNE surface area was the response.

If you want more weapons well, that's your PCs funerals.
 
atpollard said:
It was true from 1977 to 1993 and from 1996 to 2017. Granted Traveller TNE experimented with reaction based Maneuver Drives in 1994 and 1995, but they were not well received and "Fire, Fusion and Steel" offered Grav Drives as an option. I think 'Traditional' does apply to the entirety of Traveller, especially given the epic unpopularity and short life of the one attempt to try something different. Hence my making a big deal about it being far more than "partially" true.

"Not well received", How so? TNE sold very well, especially from the POV of David Nielsen the Traveller Line editor at the time. If you want to point a finger at the cause the demise of GDW a one has to do is point it at Magic: The Gathering. Magic sucked the life out of a whole bunch of 2nd tier companies as it steamrollered the gaming market.

Also I might point out that TNE's FF&S went on to inspire T4's technical bits as well as inspiring GURPS: Vehicles.

But back to the point Mass based drives also showed up in MT. As well as the basis for drives in T4. So that is like 2.5 editions or so?
 
With 2e introducing energy requirements, has anyone actually just tried designing a ship and ignoring the hard point limitation?

I think the arguments re surface area are good ones but we don't have that in 2e so it's kinda moot.

The other option I quite like is, now that we aren't constrained by ship hulls in multiples of 100 add firm points into the mix - 150 dT ship has 1 hard point (from the 100) and 2 firm points (from the 50)

I like a small ship universe but I must say, HG 2e has me wanting to design ships I've not played with before, 2000-10000dT and ships with odd hull sizes. Playing in the 3I I'm reluctant to go adding rules especially when we have a wealth of historical ships populating the universe. I still like the idea that there are certain people that will bolt every possible weapon to whatever vehicle they're running and that the rules should facilitate that. Anyone ever play Ogre? ;)
 
h1ro said:
With 2e introducing energy requirements, has anyone actually just tried designing a ship and ignoring the hard point limitation?
I just tried, a 400 dT ship with J-2, M-2 can power and crew 30 laser turrets and unlimited missile fixed mounts.
 
Luckily, there are virtual gunners... get's pricey tho...

But why stop there? Pull the jump drive and fuel, make the ship a remote and clamp it to a battle tender... :twisted:

I really like that the rules now enable you to do that (excepting the hardpoint limitation that is). Not that you couldn't previously, it just took house ruling

I'd say that if you want to stick to canon/avoid heresy then yes, keep the hard point limitation.
 
Spring for virtual gunners.

The advantage is that you can fire off your entire missile or torpedo load in a few rounds, and then turn and run.

Missile_Spam_520.png
 
I'd say that if you want to stick to canon/avoid heresy then yes, keep the hard point limitation.

I'd agree. I'd happily have a weapon 'narratively' have multiple barrels - A railgun barbette's investment in mass could in game be several smaller turrets, or vice-versa (the Nova Dreadnought in Warships of Babylon 5 had each of its big turrets represent multiple heavy pulse cannon 'barbettes' on the ship design sheet).

It is a touch more awkward for missiles, given the interaction between missile shots fired and point defence, but even then, one 'missile' can narratively become one 'missile salvo' and one point defence 'shot' can become one point defence 'burst' - as long as the universe is consistent, you can put whatever labels on the mechanics you like.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
Not really, it costs MCr 250 and has no space for anything but all the gunners...

Did you try the design with virtual gunners?

Anything with that many weapons is gonna stack up the price, we're not really talking civilian or local LE vessels here. I can see militaries or the larger corporations springing for this kind of ship.

I am not sure the time line but I'm guessing this is linked in with your Lego ship. Did you make a decision? What setting are you using?
 
h1ro said:
Did you try the design with virtual gunners?
Same ship, 400 dT, J-2, M-2, but no gunners I can squeeze in ~110 laser turrets. (The power plant is over 100 dT.)


h1ro said:
Anything with that many weapons is gonna stack up the price, we're not really talking civilian or local LE vessels here. I can see militaries or the larger corporations springing for this kind of ship.
With a reasonable computer we are talking MCr ~700. But it would kick the shit out of a frigate with a few bays...


h1ro said:
I am not sure the time line but I'm guessing this is linked in with your Lego ship. Did you make a decision? What setting are you using?
Not really.
Decision?
I'm running in a fairly standard homebrew Spinward Marches ~1100 setting.
 
Changes the game for a small ship universe huh? Demolishes canon!

I've always liked the Battle Rider idea that GDW published way back in the TNE days, I might take some time designing hardpoint free riders and their tender but keep each rider below say 2000 tons.
 
Mark A. Siefert said:
My question is how badly would this break the system? Is there some other alternative that I'm not considering?

I'd say try it out. It's not too hard to mock up two ships of the kind you're imagining and have them duke it out.

I don't watch the show, but from the clips I've seen on YouTube, the results would be pretty similar to how combat appears to work in the show - very brief starship fights where a ship with a good solution on a target absolutely destroys it in an overwhelming burst of gunfire.

I think something you want to be concerned with is that removing the hardpoint limit and doing it this way is that the PCs ships are unlikely to have plot armor that the Rocinante does. So if the enemy gets a good firing solution and the PCs don't have a convenient space station to break line of sight, their ship gets transformed into window screening in a single turn as well, something which may not be what you or your players want.


Mark A. Siefert said:
Here's the concern: Is <i>Traveller</i> supposed to be a generic sci-fi RPG, or is it a RPG for playing in the Marc Miller <i>Traveller</i> universe?

I think this is something of a biased question. Any RPG system that any has level of simulation included (like Traveller or GURPS as opposed to like FATE) has to have some assumptions about how various things work. The Marc Miller universe happens to work well because it's entirely designed around these assumptions (and even these assumptions have shifted over the various editions of Traveller). The Expanse (or Battlestar Galactica or Star Wars or Star Trek) are not based around these assumptions so you're inevitably going to have to modify some rules, write new ones, and throw out some to make it more closely model what you see in the Expanse. How much modification will be required will vary on how you want to model things. If you want to model every railgun as a separate weapon, you'll certainly have to throw out hardpoints. If you're willing to abstract a bunch of railguns as a "battery" or "bay" of them, the current hardpoint system will probably work. Nevertheless, I think the biggest hurdle will be that ships in the Expanse are basically tinfoil compared to the weapons, so fights in Traveller will probably be too long to model the quick and deadly fights in the show - with the spam of railguns in the clips I saw, missing entirely is basically impossible so fire combat in an Expanse universe would probably just be comparing damage rolls and hoping for a low damage roll with few or no crits compared to your opponent.

(For the record, I think that starship combat in every RPG I've ever seen is fundamentally flawed at a meta level as they're prone to results which cut off avenues of RP instead of creating them; "players in most RPGs cannot "saveload" if their ship gets blown up vs. if there's no true threat to the players combat isn't any fun" so take my observations with a grain of salt.)
 
My solution for the question is to rule that if players want their ships to look like something out of a Star Munchkin cartoon, that's fine; just say that their 57 assorted laser cannons are, for game convenience, treated as equivalent to a triple laser turret.

- - -

Epicenter said:
. . .
(For the record, I think that starship combat in every RPG I've ever seen is fundamentally flawed at a meta level as they're prone to results which cut off avenues of RP instead of creating them; "players in most RPGs cannot "saveload" if their ship gets blown up vs. if there's no true threat to the players combat isn't any fun" so take my observations with a grain of salt.)
I agree with this basic point: in space combat, you have a choice between realism – just about everything at space velocity is a one-shot kill – and playability – it's more fun to fight it out and wear each other down, with the player characters winning some of the time, escaping with battle damage some of the time, and occasionally ending up in an adventure to escape from a prisoner-of-war planet.

Some of the physics-minded people on the GURPS Traveller bulletin board worked out the damage from a single missile based on its kinetic energy, and concluded that they're almost always better off getting rid of the entire explosive warhead in favor of more kinetic energy – and that at longer ranges just about any missile that gets through point defense will take out any ship (even up to a million dtons) with a single shot, unless its entire path passes through cargo hold. This happened in a play-test, and as a result they ruled that any kinetic energy beyond three turns of acceleration (such as from a custom high-endurance missile) would be lost to blow-through.

I recall a play-test I did of a Star Trek role-playing game based on the Star Fleet Battles license (which the owners of Trek granted before they realized that Trek would be such an enduring property). In that game, a phaser set to "stun" had about as much chance of knocking someone out as a single punch, and a phaser set to "kill" was about as deadly as a knife – in other words, a "stun" could knock someone out in one shot, and "kill" could kill in one shot, but they usually didn't. But the game's phaser wasn't as good at stunning as a Taser, and wasn't as good at killing as a sword or a pistol. My play-test comments amount to the idea that in Trek, a phaser set to "kill" would kill a red-shirt in the first act of the show, and would always miss a cast regular, and a phaser set to "stun" would always stun if it hit, but whether it hit or not depended on whether someone needed to be knocked out by the next scene – and that's why the show had so many fist fights than firefights, and why no one ever wore armor.

That's a recurring issue with science fiction: reasonably plausible science fiction weapons either miss or kill (or miss or stun if they're meant to be non-lethal) – but that's not fun, so scripted fiction or game rules have to depart from plausibility for the sake of drama or fun.
 
Kinetic kill predates GURPS; the moment the weapon designer realizes how open ended the velocity of a large missile can be in Fire Fusion and Steel.
 
The original version of the Gazelle had four hardpoints on a 300dt hull.The missing 100dt came from the drop tank, but when this was dropped you still had 4 hardpoints on the remaining 300dt hull.
 
A close reading of the original HG79 rules show you why.

Drop tanks are not designated as such until near the end of the design sequence. So the Gazelle was designed as a 400t ship, it just so happened the fuel tanks could be dropped.
 
Note that the missiles in TNE were not kinetic: Their warheads were (nuclear) bomb-pumped xray lasers. They maneuvered into the same hex as the target and detonated.
The theory being that a kinetic kill missile was too easy to dodge/take out with point defence, to be of use in combat.
 
tolcreator said:
Note that the missiles in TNE were not kinetic: Their warheads were (nuclear) bomb-pumped xray lasers. They maneuvered into the same hex as the target and detonated.

Ah, is Star Trek the source of that idea, then? I first encountered it in the Honor Harrington books, but saw it elsewhere later.

Edit: apparently not, it's 1970s tech! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pumped_laser#Development
 
I would have no problem in allowing a hundred tonne drop tank incorporating one hardpoint into it's structure, on which you can install a turret.
 
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