Redundant Skills

[Bardicheart]

I've been playing around with character and NPC concepts lately, mainly scientific / scholarly types and its led me to some puzzling questions about some of the skills in Traveller. So I thought I'd bring it up as a topic for discussion and see what some others thought.

What has come up as a result of some tinkering is what exactly do certain skills DO and are they really necessary to have in the skill list? For example:

A Scholar has Physical Science (Electronics) 4 and is asked to work on the electrical systems of a starship. But, according to the Core Rules, that falls under Engineering (Electronics). That left me wondering, what is the actual difference between the skills? At first I thought, okay, Engineering deals with the practical application of repairing and maintaining electronics, while Science deals with the theory, development and design. But that doesn't really make sense... if you take a course on electronics in college (Science skill), you may study the design of electronics, but you also can apply that to repairing them. Which left me wondering.. do we really need both skills?

Then I got to looking at a few newer skills introduced in other books. Building on the example above...

Geordie, a former navy engineer (retired) is working onboard a Free Trader with his pals, John Luc, Dorf and Bytes. As a former top engineer Geordie has Engineering (M-Drive) 2, Engineering (J-Drive) 2, Engineering (Electronics) 2, Engineering (Power Plant) 2, Engineering (Life Support) 1, Mechanic 2, Computer 2, Comms 1, Sensor 1, Pilot (small craft) 1, Art (holographic girlfriends) 1 and maybe a couple of Science skills. If its a piece of technology he probably knows how to take it apart an put it back together... maybe even improve on it a bit.

Our intrepid merry band come across a space wreck and decide to salvage it for some extra credits. However, according to Merchant Prince, Geordie, a decorated and highly skilled former naval engineer cannot salvage said derelict vessel because he does not have the Trade (Salvage / Repair) skill (cf. Book 7 - Merchant Prince, p77), which is mandatory for salvaging and repairing a ship. Say what???? Again, this seems like a pointless skill... what exactly would someone with Trade (Salvage / Repair) 1 know how to do that Geordie wouldn't??? What exactly does such a Trade skill know how to do that makes that skill necessary (I've often had this problem with the Trade skill and various technical trades)?

(Note: Upon reading this my first reaction in my own campaign was to dump this rule and that skill entirely and come up with my own house rules for salvage and repairing stuff).

This got me to thinking about the number of skills in Traveller vs how many skills and skill points someone is likely to have. With 6 terms being a possible limit on character generation, most characters are going to end up with 12-14 points in skills (1 for each term plus 1 more for rank advancement for 2 per term x 6 terms = 12... add a few more from events, and 6-8 skills at 0) which means having higher than 3 or 4 in most skills is unlikely and rare for most characters. But also having a diversity of technical skills, ala Geordie above, is also going to be unlikely and rare (Geordie above has 17 skills points and should probably be higher than skill 2 in several of those skills); much less a technical oriented character that is both an expert in their field(s) (i.e. skill 4+) and still have a variety of technical skills. Example, some one with Science (Robotics) at 6 and related skills such as Computers, Science Electronics, Engineering (Electronics), Science (Physics), Science (Chemistry) at levels 1-3 is difficult to pull off.

So how to fix this within the rules? My first thought is that some skills need to be eliminated. For example get rid of Science (electronics) and just have Engineering (electronics), likewise probably dump Engineering (Naval) or modify it; rather than Engineering being just for starships instead it covers various engineering fields as a whole (i.e. electronics, power plants, and so forth). Then I thought about Science (Cybernetics) vs. Science (Robotics)... do these really need to be separate skills... or could Robotics or Engineering be combined with Medic or Science (Biology) to design cybernetic components? In fact, isn't robotics really a combination of computer skills (for the programming), electronics (for the circuitry) and mechanics (for the physical body)? Do we even need a Science (robotics) or Science (cybernetics) at all? Same with Science (genetics)... wouldn't that fall under Science (biology) anyway? My point being, are we making some of these skills too specialized for the generic and minimalistic approach Traveller tends to take with skills?

What I'm trying to avoid is someone playing a Naval engineer who can't salvage a wreck, or an 8 Term Scholar who discovers that although they have Science (electronics) 4 and Science (robotics) 4 they can't work on a starship's damage control robots becauce they don't have Engineer (electronics) and similar silly situations. With the minimalist approach to skill lists Traveller generally takes, I want characters to be able to accomplish task that would reasonably fall within their expertise (again, the salvaging example is probably one of the best examples of rules getting in the way in this way). An don't even get me started on why we have three different "official" sets of rules for computer hacking published (Book 6 Scoundrel, Book 9 Robots, and Supplement 8 Cybernetics, oh an Book 5 Agent also has some rules for "hackers"... ugh).

So to sum up, I've officially dumped the Trade (Salvage / Repair) skill and the Physical Science (Electronics) skill (using just Engineering (electronics) instead). I've also dumped the Forgery skill from Scoundrel (oddly, no career path in Scoundrel actually provides the Forgery skill anyway) and instead forgeries depend on the type of forgery being made... Language and/or Art (writing) for documents, Computers for electronic forgeries are most often used. Likewise I've considered dumping the Security skill for the same reason... someone who has Computers 6 doesn't know how to use/write security software? Engineering (electronics) 6 doesn't know how to create/defeat an electronic keypad?

Anyone else have examples of skills that they thought should be dumped or combined with another skill? How have other referees and player's handled these situations?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Common Sense.

If any player or ref can put forward an even faintly good reason why a skill would work then it works.

To be honest most of the specialist skills are fairly useless and a waste of points for a Traveller. Trade salvage may bring in a bit of income but its wasted points since any half way competent engineer can do the same. An engineer is more than capable of removing parts of an item of entire items and anyone who can do the maintenance and repair should be capable of refurbishing salvage.

Let the player replace the skills if they want with something usefull. Trade skills are fine for NPCs but that Trade Salvage skill is a lot less usefull than taking it as Mechanic or Engineer instead.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Go ahead and dump the skills. It was indicated by someone in mongoose that the new skills would possibly be left out if the supplements were rewritten.

Personally, I feel every additional skill becomes one less that a character has, making them weaker. For example, if there are 70 different skills and a character has 10 of them at level 0 or higher vs new skills every time there is a new publication and there are 80 different skills and a character has 10 of them. Second, a character from the core generation (and possibly other supplements), without some form of retcon, can not gain any of the new skills.

If you like the skill, find a way to make it work across all applicable careers but if you don't, toss it and replace it with an appropriate one from the core rulebook.

 

[Bardicheart]

Common Sense.

To be honest most of the specialist skills are fairly useless and a waste of points for a Traveller. Trade salvage may bring in a bit of income but its wasted points since any half way competent engineer can do the same. An engineer is more than capable of removing parts of an item of entire items and anyone who can do the maintenance and repair should be capable of refurbishing salvage.

That's my point, some of the skills as written don't make sense. The Trade (Salvage / Repair) is one example of a skill that makes no sense. Why can't someone with Mechanic salvage / repair mechanical systems or repair hull damage... that's already in the core rules. So why does Merchant Prince REQUIRE you to have some silly new skill to do exactly the same thing... hence I dumped it. I've used the salvage rules from Scoundrel instead which are simpler and use existing skills only.

In other cases, like Engineer (Electronics) vs Physical Science (Electronics) I'm left scratching my head as to what the point of having both is. According to the Core Rules, Engineer (Electronics) is only for the systems on starships and advanced vehicles. So if your personal computer needs a new motherboard or maybe you just want to overclock it... what skill do you use... Computers? No, according to the skill description that's dealing mainly with the software side, not firmware. Apparently it would be Physical Science (Electronics). Okay, great, but if Physical Science (Electronics) can repair a personal computer, why not a ships computer as well? I can't think of any good reason why it wouldn't... which means you really only need one or the other.

But it gets worse when you take Engineering (Naval) from High Guard into account.

In my previous example, smug Geordie is confident in his ability as a very competent Engineer with all his skills and naval experience...
Engineer (J-Drive) 2, Engineer (M-Drive) 2, Engineer (Power Plant) 2, Engineer (Electronics) 2, and Engineer (Life Support) 1... total of 9 skill points.

But then one day the merry band of Jon Luc, Dorf, Bytes and Geordie is joined by Petty Officer 3rd Class Pulham... he doesn't have all those Engineering skills, he's younger and less experienced but studied ship design almost exclusively for Engineering (Naval) 5. As it turns out that lets him perform all those other engineering skills at an effective Engineering (any) 3... which makes smug Geordie turn a little green.

Worse, Pulham also has Physical Science (Electronics) 3, so he's able to work on any ship system... and is better at it, and any form of electronics... and is better at it... than poor Geordie for just 8 skill points.

And in Episode 27, we find that Geordie has been left drunk at a starport bar contemplating a new career as a Drifter while Jon Luc, Dorf and Bytes jumped out of system with their new chief engineer Pulham boldly going where no sane Traveller has any business going. :lol:

These are just a few things I've been running into lately that, in all honesty, I never noticed before because of a general lack of technical oriented characters. Have had plenty of Free Traders, Mercs, and rogues of various sorts... but not so much doctors, engineers or scientist. I got to looking at these skills more carefully while tinkering with ideas for some NPCs and maybe a character concept or two and that's when the "rut roh, that doesn't seem right" moments started happening. So, figured I'd see who else might have had a similar experience (if anyone) and what solutions they came up with, while sharing my own thoughts. I'll eventually firm up house rules for all of it, but doesn't hurt to bounce ideas around with others in the process.

I'm also looking at the sciences and how they're split up and thinking maybe Space Sciences as a group needs to be eliminated. I'm thinking Robotics and Cybernetics should be specializations under Physical Sciences. Xenology should be under Life Sciences. Planetology should also probably be under Physical Sciences. That would give us 3 general science skills. I'm also thinking that maybe you could take say Physical Science as a skill itself so it has levels allowing you to use any specialization but at a -2 or -3 DM. Still pondering that one.

Just kicking around ideas.

 

[Hopeless]

1) Trade/salvage and Repair: unless Geordie hasn't got the Trade skill at +0 one of his friends probably does and I'd rule he could aid their effort with his Engineer skills to help improve their chances by repairing the vessel or helping to salvage parts with his skills.

2) Engineer/Electronics is more hands on experience whilst Physical Science/Electronics is more book learning, physical science might be better in figuring out how that system should look like, the engineering equivalent will help adapt and improvise when the standard plans just won't cut it.
I'd give a -2DM when physical science was used instead of engineer, give Mechanic a look on page 56 I'd have thought that would have posed more problems than this.

3) Engineer/Naval: You're talking about someone trained aboard a military vessel and their training would be specifically towards working aboard an often state of the art vessel and not a civilian ship. Its all well and good if he was replacing a naval engineer but his skills would all but be negated if he used them on a civilian vessel or any of the usual ships available to a Traveller character.
Georgie meanwhile would be inundated by job offers because his broader level of training makes him more useful both on and off world, let alone aboard a ship as he isn't as restricted as his replacement's narrow engineering experience implies.

 

[Bardicheart]

Interesting points, so basically you use the rules as printed regardless?

1) Trade/salvage and Repair: unless Geordie hasn't got the Trade skill at +0 one of his friends probably does and I'd rule he could aid their effort with his Engineer skills to help improve their chances by repairing the vessel or helping to salvage parts with his skills.

Hmm... so you're saying the guy with the actual Engineering and Mechanics skills which are normally used to repair damage to various systems has to assist the guy with Trade 0 in order to salvage the very same systems? Doesn't pass muster for me.

2) Engineer/Electronics is more hands on experience whilst Physical Science/Electronics is more book learning, physical science might be better in figuring out how that system should look like, the engineering equivalent will help adapt and improvise when the standard plans just won't cut it.
I'd give a -2DM when physical science was used instead of engineer, give Mechanic a look on page 56 I'd have thought that would have posed more problems than this.

I leaned toward something like this initially but then ran into problems with it. Partly because of the description of the Mechanic Skill. That makes it clear that you need Engineering and Science to repair, maintain and build complex systems. The description of the engineering skill specifically states they are for repairing and maintaining such systems on starships and advanced vehicles... so Mechanic for repairing simple systems, Engineering for repairing complex systems, Science for designing everything... I could buy that... except (you knew there was "but" coming, right?)
a) It makes clear that for repairing and salvaging Mechanic and Engineering should be the primary skills, any Trade (Salvage/Repair) should probably be for less skilled assistants and therefore not mandatory. At least in my opinion. I just prefer to give the assistants Mechanic an keep the skill list simpler.
b) If Engineering (Electronics) is used to repair electronics on a starship or an advanced vehicle... what skill do you use for repairing electronics in your personal communicator or desktop computer? Mechanic? That doesn't seem right so what other skill would be appropriate?
c) Reading the Sciences description it specifically states such skills cover both theory and design as well as practical application (Core Rules, p57 "Science skills cover not just knowledge but also practical application of that knowledge where such practical application is possible.")... which leads me back to using Science (Electronics) to both design and repair electronics... and that would include those on starships which again brings us back to Engineering (Electronics) being redundant. Unless you want me to believe that somehow just because electronics are installed on a starship or a G-carrier they now need a special skill to repair them, which I frankly just can't see.

Let me put it another way... you want to design a robot, what skill do you use... Science (Robotics) right? You need to repair that robot, you use the same skill right? You need to design some cyberware, what skill do you use? Science (Cybernetics) right? And if you needed to repair it, same skill, right? Why would Science (Electronics) be any different? There's the rub that's been bugging me. Why break the continuity of that logic for one skill and split it into two skills when one skill suffices for most other things? It doesn't seem to add anything constructive to the game, just adds to the complexity needlessly.

3) Engineer/Naval: You're talking about someone trained aboard a military vessel and their training would be specifically towards working aboard an often state of the art vessel and not a civilian ship. Its all well and good if he was replacing a naval engineer but his skills would all but be negated if he used them on a civilian vessel or any of the usual ships available to a Traveller character.
Georgie meanwhile would be inundated by job offers because his broader level of training makes him more useful both on and off world, let alone aboard a ship as he isn't as restricted as his replacement's narrow engineering experience implies.

There's no mention of such a restriction in the Engineering (Naval) skill, nor elsewhere. Military craft are not always state of the art, in fact many aren't, most are Tech 12 much as civilian craft are because they're easier and cheaper to operate and maintain than state of the art. Other than meson weapons, screens, etc. most equipment on military craft is no different than that used on civilian craft... except perhaps where it was manufactured, but these are not specified in the rules as having any functional difference. My point was, going strictly by the rules as currently written, the younger guy who spent 8 points in Engineering (Naval) and Science (Electronics) would turn out to be the better engineer than Geordie.

My problem with that is that if the various engineering specialties are, as the skill descriptions indicate, for repairing and maintaining various starship systems, then Engineering (Naval) as written makes them all obsolete unless you feel you just absolutely need a +6 for skill vs a +4 for making those repairs. Hence my point that skill likely needs to be reviewed and rewritten.

Part of what I'm considering takes into account something Captain Jonah pointed out, most of the Science skills are nearly useless right now in your typical Traveller campaign. I agree with that, but I'd also like to correct that a bit. Assuming Book 9 - Robots ever gets cleaned up enough to be fully usable I could see Science (Robotics) being useful. With Supplement 8 - Cybernetics, Life Science (Cybernetics) is more useful (although the book incorrectly lists Engineering (Electronics) as needed to design cyberware instead of the science skill... which I think further illustrates the need to sort out just what Engineering vs Science skills are used for). An with the Great Traveller Clean-up ongoing, this seems a particularly good time to discuss this sort of thing.

The bit about Geordie being drunk in a bar was just tongue in cheek humor. After all, his pals just dumped him, that's gotta hurt a bit. :wink:

 

[Mithras]

I don't use specializations and everything seems to work fine, just like it did back in CT. Limited skills, more player ingenuity and a 'we can do this' kind of attitude.

 

[Easterner]

I might be missing something but my review of Core and MP come with an entirely different interpretation of rules.

Mechanic just fixes thing.

Eng runs and fixes and does complex tasks a mech can't per Core rule Pg56

some advanced equipment and spacecraft components
may require the Engineer skill (see page 54). Unlike the narrower
but more useful Engineer or Science skills, Mechanic does not allow
a character to build new devices or alter existing ones – it is purely
for repairs and maintenance but covers nearly everything.

That tells me Sci & Engr can do Mech's job.

As to Trade/Salvage that tells me a person knows the business inside and out and knows what is salvageable based on experience not from accreditation. He will also know where to unload the salvage unlike that incompetent crew of naval types you mentioned.

No where could I find a prohibition on one negating the others.

New skills can be learned from training so old characters not left out of new skills per Core Pg. 59.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I treat the various skills as I do real life skills. There are MIS guys. There are IS guys. And there are IT guys. They started their computer careers in different decades. Each uses different methods and tools to salvage/repair. Each uses a different amount of time to do the task. Each treats a reccurence of failure differently.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I have not checked out Book 9 - Robots, but from the core book, it seams to me that Robotics could be considered a combination of mechanic, electronic and computer skill. Perhaps even some Physics (especially for those floaters), Remote Operations and Sensors skill too. Can someone with robotics not understand or be able work on any other computerized, mechanical, or electronic device? Or the opposite, is one skill level in robotics equal to a skill level in all the others?

 

[Hopeless]

Interesting points, so basically you use the rules as printed regardless?
1) Trade/salvage and Repair: unless Geordie hasn't got the Trade skill at +0 one of his friends probably does and I'd rule he could aid their effort with his Engineer skills to help improve their chances by repairing the vessel or helping to salvage parts with his skills.
Hmm... so you're saying the guy with the actual Engineering and Mechanics skills which are normally used to repair damage to various systems has to assist the guy with Trade 0 in order to salvage the very same systems? Doesn't pass muster for me.

I actually said he could aid the others check by improving the odds for the one who has the Trade skill to be able to salvage something worth the bother since you'd have a group of PCs with nothing to do and a cooperative effort should be more interesting than having to rely on one PC having a specific skill when it isn't necessary to be that strict.

2) Engineer/Electronics is more hands on experience whilst Physical Science/Electronics is more book learning, physical science might be better in figuring out how that system should look like, the engineering equivalent will help adapt and improvise when the standard plans just won't cut it.
I'd give a -2DM when physical science was used instead of engineer, give Mechanic a look on page 56 I'd have thought that would have posed more problems than this.
I leaned toward something like this initially but then ran into problems with it. Partly because of the description of the Mechanic Skill. That makes it clear that you need Engineering and Science to repair, maintain and build complex systems. The description of the engineering skill specifically states they are for repairing and maintaining such systems on starships and advanced vehicles... so Mechanic for repairing simple systems, Engineering for repairing complex systems, Science for designing everything... I could buy that... except (you knew there was "but" coming, right?)
a) It makes clear that for repairing and salvaging Mechanic and Engineering should be the primary skills, any Trade (Salvage/Repair) should probably be for less skilled assistants and therefore not mandatory. At least in my opinion. I just prefer to give the assistants Mechanic an keep the skill list simpler.
b) If Engineering (Electronics) is used to repair electronics on a starship or an advanced vehicle... what skill do you use for repairing electronics in your personal communicator or desktop computer? Mechanic? That doesn't seem right so what other skill would be appropriate?
c) Reading the Sciences description it specifically states such skills cover both theory and design as well as practical application (Core Rules, p57 "Science skills cover not just knowledge but also practical application of that knowledge where such practical application is possible.")... which leads me back to using Science (Electronics) to both design and repair electronics... and that would include those on starships which again brings us back to Engineering (Electronics) being redundant. Unless you want me to believe that somehow just because electronics are installed on a starship or a G-carrier they now need a special skill to repair them, which I frankly just can't see.

a) Or you could have one character have the Trade skill at +0 for when use of Trade/Salvage and repair comes up.

b)I tried an analogy that clearly doesn't work.
I assumed physical science meant more book learning rather than practical experience with the engineer more open to improvisation than their physical science counterpart whilst I mentioned Mechanic because it mentioned the other two being more specific and narrower of focus I saw that as being somewhat the same between Engineer and Physical Science but that ultimately is up to the dm to decide upon whether they're redundant or not.

c) I see that as a mistake since it really should have the same -2DM applied to it as I don't see Physical Science being a perfect replacement for the relevant Engineer skill however the dm decides that.

Let me put it another way... you want to design a robot, what skill do you use... Science (Robotics) right? You need to repair that robot, you use the same skill right? You need to design some cyberware, what skill do you use? Science (Cybernetics) right? And if you needed to repair it, same skill, right? Why would Science (Electronics) be any different? There's the rub that's been bugging me. Why break the continuity of that logic for one skill and split it into two skills when one skill suffices for most other things? It doesn't seem to add anything constructive to the game, just adds to the complexity needlessly.

I'd have assumed a bonus dm would be involved if you have relevant skills but use the best one as the basis for the check.

3) Engineer/Naval: You're talking about someone trained aboard a military vessel and their training would be specifically towards working aboard an often state of the art vessel and not a civilian ship. Its all well and good if he was replacing a naval engineer but his skills would all but be negated if he used them on a civilian vessel or any of the usual ships available to a Traveller character.

Part of what I'm considering takes into account something Captain Jonah pointed out, most of the Science skills are nearly useless right now in your typical Traveller campaign. I agree with that, but I'd also like to correct that a bit. Assuming Book 9 - Robots ever gets cleaned up enough to be fully usable I could see Science (Robotics) being useful. With Supplement 8 - Cybernetics, Life Science (Cybernetics) is more useful (although the book incorrectly lists Engineering (Electronics) as needed to design cyberware instead of the science skill... which I think further illustrates the need to sort out just what Engineering vs Science skills are used for). An with the Great Traveller Clean-up ongoing, this seems a particularly good time to discuss this sort of thing.

The bit about Geordie being drunk in a bar was just tongue in cheek humor. After all, his pals just dumped him, that's gotta hurt a bit. :wink:

Yes sorry about that I figured it was important to point out that military service is fine for a background but unless you're in a military campaign that engineer should have serious problems using his training on a civilian ship unless of course he was a certain Cardassian from ds9 who ended up in command of such a ship at which point he got to call the shots on how things are being handled!

Ultimately its up to the dm to make that clear but I agree there should be some update to make it clear how those skills work when compared with each other.

Would physical science/electronics be as good as engineer/electronics?

How does Engineer/Naval cope when put up against a character generated not via the High Guard supplement and they're both aboard a trading vessel?

Why isn't Trade/Salvage & Repair listed as a new skill instead of a section in the Merchants book when its as relevant in the Scoundrels book?

 

[Captain Jonah]

Drop the Trade skills for PCs, use a base skill that is more or less the same. So for Trade salvage/repair let them take mechanic or engineer. The trade skills are for earning a living. It seems a bit silly that an engineer electronics 4 cannot earn a living and needs to get the Trade Electrician skill.
NPCs would have the Trade skill which is all about finding and keeping a job in that field, nothing more.

For the sciences. They are the theoretical or class room/ebook type knowledge.
An engineer electronics will not know exactly how that flow control circuit board works but he knows exactly how to replace the burnt out board and recalibrate the main flow system to restore main power to the drives in the middle of combat.
The Scientist electronics would know how the flow controller works in exacting detail and with the right tools and a fabricator/3D printer could make a slightly better one but does not have the hands on ability to replace it and recalibrate it quickly or when under fire mid battle.

To give you an idea many many years ago when I was a student I took one of the first IT diploma courses in the UK. We put together mother boards by designing them by hand, etching them, mapping out every resistor and chip and setting power levels to every part of the board. Then we hand assembled them.
This was science electronics. Since then I have used exactly none of this, ever. I don’t map out the resistance levels of circuits, I buy a mass produced board.

Having said that I can see the advent of 3D printing and fabrication making such skills slightly useful again.

In game this would be a case of the engineer has had a good look at the wreck and reckons he can repair it. But the power plant uses a Regina fusion 1791b which uses local proprietary micro pulse circuits. Your ships spares are for the far more common Sternmetal AS24 which will not work. Your engineer cannot rebuild the solid state circuits but your Scientist electronics could pull up the 3D plans for the Sternmetal parts and spend a few days replacing the internal circuits with the Regina configuration allowing the 3D fabber to make parts for the wreck. Then once the wreck is moving again you can fly it to the port where your Advocate registers it as salvage and your Broker looks to sell it.

No trade skills, no you must have this skill.

The rules are the framework for the adventure. If players or refs can come up with a reason for a skill to work then it works, if the skill or use of that skill fails the sniff test then dump it.
Traveller is about the Travellers and their adventures. Adding more and more skills simply to puff up supplements and add-ons does nothing for the adventures and just needlessly makes things more complex.

If your characters don’t have the skill and cannot hire it then it should never ever be needed in your games.

 

[rust]

I usually write a new list of engineering and science skills for each
of my settings, concentrating on the comparatively few skills which
are really useful in the specific setting.

In the case of Engineering I normally use Engineering (Space) and
Engineering (Civil) only, each covers the entire range of possible
tasks a starship engineer or civil engineer might have to deal with,
and there is also some overlap concerning the most basic technolo-
gies, like for example power generation and distribution. All "pe-
destrian" tasks are covered by Electronics and Mechanics.

In the case of the Sciences I usually prefer some more precision, for
example Marine Biology instead of Biology and Oceanography instead
of Planetology for a setting with a water world as its focus, but I tend
to ignore both the purely theoretical sciences (no Mathematics) and
those sciences which have no practical use in the setting.

Trade skills are mainly used for "setting colour", for example when an
aquafarmer character has Trade (Aquafarming) to explain how he ma-
nages to make a living on that water world. Here I feel that a Level 1
in such a skill reminds the player of the background of his character
and even can prove useful in the specific setting now and then.

 

[Bardicheart]

I don't use specializations and everything seems to work fine, just like it did back in CT. Limited skills, more player ingenuity and a 'we can do this' kind of attitude.

Heh... you don't know how tempted I've been to do the same. You're comment did prompt me to take some time to go back and re-read my old CT books 1 thru 8. Haven't really looked at them since... sometime around 1985 I think... seems like that was about when the group I gamed with back then switched over to MegaTraveller. Talking about a walk down memory lane... gave me some thing to think about though.

I have not checked out Book 9 - Robots, but from the core book, it seams to me that Robotics could be considered a combination of mechanic, electronic and computer skill. Perhaps even some Physics (especially for those floaters), Remote Operations and Sensors skill too. Can someone with robotics not understand or be able work on any other computerized, mechanical, or electronic device? Or the opposite, is one skill level in robotics equal to a skill level in all the others?

I would imagine robotics probably is a combination of of several... electronics, computer, and maybe mechanic. Could it be used as a substitute, maybe, that's kinda going in the direction of MegaTraveller's cascade skills. I thought about that, and this is what I ended up with. Take Physical Sciences, put Physics, Chemistry, Electronics, Robotics and Cybernetics under it as specializations. You get Physical Science at 0, and then whatever you have your specialization at... say Robotics 4. Someone with Physical Science (Robotics) 4 would be able to design, repair, modify, etc. robots at a skill 4... or work with general electronics, cybernetics, chemistry or physics as skill 0. That seems pretty reasonable to me. If you want to write your own software for a robot, you still need the Computer skill. Keeps the number of skills you need simple and straightforward, and the focus on "lets get this done", rather than players wrangling over what skill can be used to do what.

I'm also thinking of just eliminating all the specializations of Engineering, make it a general skill as it was in CT. After Mithras comment got me to rereading all that it also got me to thinking. Why do we need all those specializations? Traveller's skill system isn't that detail oriented, its not the kind of game that ever had a specific skill or specialization for everything. In CT Book 1 the only specializations were for Melee and Gun Combat. In Book 4, 5, 6 and 7 they added a few more specializations but Engineering wasn't one of them. Most of us probably have gaming groups of about 4 players, and most often that's four people on a 200 dT Free Trader trading and misbehaving. You have one person who is usually the ship techie, handles engineering and maintenance. One person is usually the pilot and handles navs. The other two probably have Gunnery, one might be a medic the other might be the hired gun, former merc or what have you. I think that's probably pretty typical. So I asked myself this, does it enhance the game to have that one character have to have five different engineering specializations spending somewhere between 5-10 skill points out of maybe 20 that the character has? Or does it detract, for me the answer is, it detracts. That kind of specialization belongs on capital ships of the Imperial Navy where you have whole engineering sections of dozens if not hundreds of engineers working on various ship systems... but how many of us regularly play games based on a 50,000 dT cruiser?

One thing I'm trying to develop more of is the kind of thing you see in games like Shadowrun, where that same group is skulking about, working for various patrons doing "shadowy" stuff and... well... misbehaving. In games like Shadowrun and Cyberpunk you had some characters who were talented hackers who broke into computer systems as part of the "run", other operated drones and robots to provide surveillance, intel and extra firepower when needed. I'd like players in my Traveller games to have that same sort of option, which means sorting through the hacking rules and Book 9 (which I'm also working on), but it also means technical and science skills become more important.

a) Or you could have one character have the Trade skill at +0 for when use of Trade/Salvage and repair comes up.

Actually, if you go by the skills rules as written you can't. Trade skills requires a specialization to use and one cannot be used for another. "The amount of money raised is 100 Credits times the Effect of the check per month. Unlike other skills with specializations, levels in the Trade skill do not grant the ability to use other specialties at skill level 0. Each specialty must be learned individually. Someone with a Trade skill of 0 has a general grasp of working for a living but little experience beyond the most menial jobs." Core Rules pp58-59. Not saying you can't change that, since that's what this discussion is about after all... just pointing out it would be a change from the original skill description.

However, I still don't buy that a person who spent maybe 4 years learning Trade (Salvage / Repair) 1 knows more about salvaging a wrecked starship than an actual qualified ships Engineer who has Mechanic (the skill normally used to repair hull damage; Core Rules p143) and one or more of the Engineer specializations at 1+ (the skills normally used to repair everything else; Core Rules p143 which also notes the Science skills can likewise be used for repairs without penalty). That just makes no sense at all to me. Let me put it this way, I was a licensed Building Contractor, I knew all about building a house. I had workers who were carpenters... they assisted me, I didn't assist them, I was the guy with all the expertise. I see it as the same thing here. Someone with a Trade skill might know the fundamentals of what kinds of components might be valuable... but they don't know nearly as much as someone actually qualified to repair those components, modify them, replace them, etc.

Why isn't Trade/Salvage & Repair listed as a new skill instead of a section in the Merchants book when its as relevant in the Scoundrels book?

Ummm... I'm going to say D) Bad Editing, final answer. 8) One of my complaints about Mongoose Traveller is that the editing hasn't been very consistent, and the writing from one book to the next often feels like a dozen different people did the writing... and nobody was sharing notes or looking at what had already been written. That's part of why I'm looking over the whole skill list right now an doing a bit of thinking an editing myself, try to sort it out a bit better. It's also why I decided going back and looking at CT was a good idea, since Mongoose Traveller mimics CT in many ways. I think Mithras had a good point about the specializations, and although CT had some, it had a lot fewer. Maybe Mongoose Traveller would be better off with fewer specializations as well. I'm definitely pondering that.

Drop the Trade skills for PCs, use a base skill that is more or less the same. So for Trade salvage/repair let them take mechanic or engineer. The trade skills are for earning a living. It seems a bit silly that an engineer electronics 4 cannot earn a living and needs to get the Trade Electrician skill.
NPCs would have the Trade skill which is all about finding and keeping a job in that field, nothing more.

Which is pretty much exactly what the salvage rules in Scoundrel do. You use Mechanic or Engineering or other skills depending on what you're trying to salvage, the result is a few dTs of cargo you sell using the regular trade rules. Or, in the case of a wrecked starship, you can haul the whole thing back as is and sell it for 1/10th its new value. Simple and efficient and I'm thinking that's what I'm going to stick with and just dump the salvage rules from Merchant Prince completely.

For the sciences. They are the theoretical or class room/ebook type knowledge.
An engineer electronics will not know exactly how that flow control circuit board works but he knows exactly how to replace the burnt out board and recalibrate the main flow system to restore main power to the drives in the middle of combat.

I might agree with you if this were a more skills heavy game that had more in the way of crunchy detailled rules for skills, building stuff, modifying stuff, etc. However, Traveller is more minimalistic than that. That and the skill description of the Sciences from the core rules makes it plain that the sciences are supposes to be both knowledge and practical application (Which again, we could rewrite it differently since that what we're discussing here, point taken). Traveller seems to handle the difference by skill level, take Medic as an example. At Medic 0 you know basic first aid and CPR. Medic 1 and you're a paramedic. Medic 2 and you just became an MD, congrats Doctor. Medic 3 and you're a surgeon. Medic 4 or higher an you're probably doing medical research. Following that someone with Electronics 0 or 1 might know the basics of repairing electronics components, but by Electronics 4, they're qualified to design and invent new electronics components. My point being is that with some skills in Traveller the pattern seems to be practical knowledge seems to come at lower skill levels, and at higher levels you get into theory and design.

As I mentioned above, Mithras comment prompted me to go back and re-read CT 1-8. I noticed a few things from that that have me thinking. I really am coming to think some of the specializations just need to go. Engineering would be one example, cut it back to a single general skill used for maintaining and repairing starships, advanced vehicles, and add in large structures (modern buildings (TL 10+ or something), power plants, orbital facilities). Engineering (Naval) should be reverted back to Naval Architect as it was in CT and work the same way it did then... no more -2 DM general engineering skill. I'm still going thru my skill list and deciding what other skills I might change (I've got a Word document with the whole list that I'm editing, its about 14 pages right now with all the descriptions, eventually it will become a PDF handout for players so we all have the same info to work from).

One other thing I noticed from CT Books 4 thru 7. They allowed for more skills than you can have in Mongoose Traveller. Starting with CT Book 4 - Mercenary, you got your basic and advanced training at the start of your Term, then you carried out 4 assignments (1 per year of the term), during which you had a chance to gain another skill in each assignment. That added up to a lot more skill levels than we have now (worked out to 3-5 skill points per term). CT High Guard, Scout and Merchant Prince had similar skill rules. This got me to thinking. Maybe something for Mongoose Traveller it might be interesting to experiment with the idea of getting your basic training / skill in the first year of each term. Then in each of the next 3 years, you roll for survival and then either a mishap or event depending on how the survival roll turned out. You might learn an extra skill, depending on the event result, or gain a contact or just have something interesting happen. That somewhat follows what CT did in later books (coincidentally the same books where specializations became more common), though not exactly the same. Could make for more colorful character backgrounds as well. Not sure if it would be too much though, anyone ever try anything like that? If so, what kind of experience did you have with it?

Regards to all, enjoying the discussion

 

[GypsyComet]

I look at the overlapping skills and specialties differently precisely because they come from different directions. The Engineering specialties rule the practical applications: take it apart, put it back together, keep it running on spit and bailing wire, etc. An Engineer will know (or be able to guess) that a part substitution will or will not work, and what other adjustments will be needed elsewhere to make it work. The Engineer does have some salvage skills (and may be a justifiable T/S-0), but he isn't the plasma cutter virtuoso the Trade/Salvage guy is. At the same time, the Engineer (as Traveller uses the term, remember) may have a touch of design skill, but if nothing in the wreck will work he will have a lengthy scratchbuild process in front of him that the Science/Electronics guy would be *much* faster at.

The three skills can be represented with a Venn Diagram of three sets in a line: Sci, Engineer, and T/S. The Sci and Trade sets each overlap Engineer but do not overlap each other.

If the absence of Trade/Salvage in the space trades bothers you, add it as an option to appropriate Events in those trades. There is a good chance a Navy Engineer can learn such skills in the right circumstances, but there is also a good chance he won't. Damage Control is a fairly specialized skill set, Star Trek aside.

 

[Bardicheart]

After considering the various comments and suggestions, this is what I've come up with and will likely be using in my own games. I'll list the skill changes first, and then explain why I made them.

Mechanic
The Mechanic skill allows the character to maintain and repair most equipment – some advanced equipment and spacecraft components may require the Space Engineering skill. Unlike the narrower but more useful Science skills, Mechanic does not allow a character to build new devices or alter existing ones – it is purely for repairs and maintenance but covers nearly everything including machining or fabricating simple parts (someone with mechanic could machine a new pump part, but could not make an electronics component which would require Physical Science (Electronics)).
Repairing a damaged system in battle: Intelligence or Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0).

Science
There are four separate Science skills – Physical Sciences, Life Sciences, Social Sciences and Space Sciences. Each science skill has a number of specializations. Science skills cover not just knowledge but also practical application of that knowledge where such practical application is possible (such as repair and maintenance as well as design and theory). With the appropriate Science skill a character can both design new prototypes, modify existing designs, as well as effect repairs; however repairs will often take one Time step higher than someone using the Mechanic, Space Engineering or Structural Engineering skill to effect the same repair (i.e. a job that would take a Mechanic 1-6 minutes might take 10-60 minutes using a science skill).
Physical Sciences
• Chemistry: The study of matter at the atomic, molecular, and macromolecular levels
• Cybernetics: The study of blending living and synthetic life.
• Electronics: The study of circuits and computers.
Installing a new computer system: Education, 1–6 hours, Average (+0).
Repairing a damaged sensor: Education, 10–60 minutes, Average (+0).
• Gravitics: The study of devices which utilize the principles of anti-gravity, including air/raft lift modules, grav belts, grav sleds and grav tanks. This skill allows an understanding or how such devices operate, and how to repair, assemble or modify them.
• Physics: The study of the fundamental forces.
• Robotics: The study of robot construction and use.
Life Sciences
• Biology: The study of living organisms.
• Cryonics: The study of cryonic suspension systems and devices.
• Genetics: The study of genetic codes and engineering.
• Pathology: The study of diseases, including bacterial, viral, cancers, etc.
• Pharmacology: The study and development of medicines and drugs.
• Psionicology: The study of psionic powers and phenomena.
• Xenobiology: The study of alien life forms.
Social Sciences
• Archeology: The study of ancient civilizations, including the previous Imperiums and the Ancients. It also covers techniques of investigation and excavations.
• Economics: The study of trade and markets.
Predicting demand for a cargo in another system: Education, 10-60 minutes, Difficult (-2).
• History: The study of the past, as seen through documents and records as opposed to physical artifacts.
• Linguistics: See Languages.
• Philosophy: The study of beliefs and religions.
• Psychology: The study of thought and society.
• Sophontology: The study of intelligent living creatures.
Remembering a cultural fact about a intelligent species: Education, 1-6 minutes, Routine (+2) for major races, Average (+0) for minor races, Difficult (-2) for obscure minor races.

Space Engineering
The Space Engineering skill is focuses on the operation and maintenance of spacecraft, orbital facilities and gravitic vehicles (air/raft, G-carriers, etc.). This skill has two specialties, technician which focuses on maintenance and repair, and architect which focuses on design. Non-gravitic vehicles such as ground cars, walkers, boats and hovercraft would be repaired and maintained using Mechanic.
• Technician: Trained in the operation, maintenance, repair and salvaging of the systems and components of small craft, star ships, and gravitic vehicles. Technicians are commonly referred to as "ship's engineers". Technician can be used to make repairs on damaged systems on spacecraft and gravitic vehicles (such as the hull, drive, sensors, etc.). However, Technicians cannot invent new systems, or build new prototypes of ship components; they may only make limited customizations. See also Spacecraft Operations, page 137.
Overcharging a thruster plate to increase a ship’s agility: Intelligence, 1–6 minutes, Difficult (–2).
Estimating a ship’s tonnage from its observed performance: Intelligence, 10–60 seconds, Average (+0).
Making a Jump: Intelligence, 10–60 minutes, Routine (+2).
Safely reducing power to life support to prolong a ship’s battery life: Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0).
Overcharging a ship’s power planet to get extra output: Intelligence, 1–6 minutes, Difficult (–2).
Adding a turret mounting or launch tube to a ship hull: Education, 1-6 weeks, Difficult (-2).
Patching a hull breach: Dexterity, 1-6 minutes, Average (+0).
Repairing a damaged ships sensor: Education, 1–6 minutes, Average (+0).
• Naval Architect: Skilled in the design of small craft and star ships. Includes knowledge of the requirements and details of creating usable ship designs. A naval architect can modify ship designs using existing components, but cannot invent new ship systems (i.e. a naval architect can design a ship to use an existing and known type of jump drive, but could not invent a new type of jump drive), inventing new systems requires the relevant Science skills or Weapon Engineering skills.

Structural Engineering
Structural engineering covers the study, design and construction of large planetary structures, fortifications, roads, bridges, etc.
Specialties:
• Civil: The character is trained in the construction of buildings, residences, roads, dams, and other physical structures that are part of civilization.
• Combat: The character is trained in the rapid construction of field fortifications, large-scale camouflage, the appraisal of a structure’s ability to withstand enemy fire, landmine placement and removal, and/or placement of passive ground sensors. Essentially the battlefield is the character’s to mould as he sees fit.
Building a field fortification (trench, sandbag wall, etc.): 1-6 Hours, Education or Endurance, Average (+0). Resulting fortification grants maximum cover equal to half Effect (round up).
Building a defensive fortification (wall, bunker, etc.): 10-60 Days, Education, Difficult (–2). Resulting fortification grants maximum cover equal to Effect.
Finding weak point in enemy fortifications: 1-6 Minutes, Intelligence, Difficult (–2). Character can ignore the cover DM of targets behind fortification, up to an amount equal to Effect.
Constructing sufficient camouflage to hide a single vehicle: 10- 60 Minutes, Intelligence, Average (+0). Grants a Stealth skill to the vehicle equal to Effect until vehicle is moved.
Constructing sufficient camouflage to hide a single small building or defensive fortification: 1-6 Hours, Intelligence, Average (+0). Applies a skill DM penalty to those looking to visually find it equal to Effect until discovered.
Hiding a doorway or hatch from view: 1-6 Minutes, Intelligence, Average (+0). Grants a Stealth skill to the doorway/hatch equal to Effect until discovered.
Properly hiding a minefield: 1-6 Hours, Dexterity or Intelligence, Difficult (–2)
Avoiding previously placed minefields: 1-6 Minutes, Dexterity or Intelligence, Average (+0)
Removing an active land mine: 1-6 minutes, Dexterity, Very Difficult (–4)
Properly placing a ground sensor: 10-60 Minutes, Intelligence, Routine (+2)
Avoiding triggering existing ground sensors: 10-60 Seconds, Dexterity or Intelligence, Difficult (-2)

=Notes============================================

Mechanic is still basically the same with a slight clarification and the addition that they can also function as fabricators with the right tools (workshop) naturally.

Engineering was renamed Space Engineering. After reading over the original CT Engineering skill as well as the Mongoose version it became clear to me that the intent was for Engineering to focus on starship engineering, not engineering in general. In CT, Engineering didn't deal with electronics at all (there is a separate Electronics skill for that), but was focused solely on the operation, maintenance and repair of the maneuver and jump drives of starships. Later, certain "advanced" vehicles were added to that list, such as air/raft and G-carriers (both use anti-gravity which coincidentally is the basis of maneuver drives and jump drives). I've essentially reverted Engineering back to its original form more or less, though allowing the Space Engineering (Technician) to also repair and maintain starship comms, computers and sensors, power plants and life support; that seemed a sensible specialization. I created the Technician specialization, and made Naval Architect (now also back essentially to its CT form) a second specialization on the logic that a Space Engineering (Technician) would have some basic understanding of naval architecture (and thus could attempt design at skill 0); likes wise a Naval Architect would have a basic understanding of the maintenance and repair of a ships systems and in a pinch could perform those at skill 0. I also think the name change will help avoid confusion about what the skill applies too as seems to have been the case with Engineering. Although the skill description of Engineering in Core Rules clearly states it applies just to starships and advanced vehicles (which I now identify a specifically being gravitic vehicles for clarity), multiple authors have incorrectly used Engineering (Electronics) for computer hackers, designing cybernetics, and other applications that have nothing to do with starships or gravitics; all those instances should be replaced with Phy Sci (Electronics). However, I'll also confess I made the same mistake at times and I think its because the name is misleading (you tend to think Electrical Engineer and so forth) unless you read the skill description carefully.

Structural Engineering
I applied the same concept here as with Space Engineering, a combat engineer would have basic familiarity with civil engineering and vice versa, thus could reasonably attempt the other at skill 0.

Sciences
I regrouped the science skills to better reflect what I felt were related fields. That is, someone with Physical Sciences (Electronics) 4 would be very good with any form of electronics, but would also have a basic familiarity (skill 0) with physics, chemistry, cybernetics, robotics, etc. Same with the Life Sciences group. I dropped Linguistics and made it simply languages. I'm still working on revamping the Space Sciences group, will add that back later with a different set of specializations dealing with planets, stars and stellar phenomenon (currently reading through the Scout book for ideas on that). All the sciences are intended to be for practical application, so I glossed over some types. My goal was to provide sciences that might be used in play rather than trying to create an exhaustive list of sciences people mostly won't use. I'm still pondering what to do with Biology and Xenobiology... in the Imperium, who's biology would you be studying and what is considered alien?

Also, some sciences do overlap, which also affected how I grouped them. Robotics and Cybernetics would both certainly have some familiarity with electronics, but their focus is on electronics used in their specific fields whereas Electronics as a specialization covers all forms of electronic gadgetry, but not the mechanical and other aspects covered as part of Robotics or Cybernetics. Same with Physics which does cover the study of Gravitics somewhat, but Gravitics focuses on it as well as its applications in Jump Drives, Maneuver drives and artificial gravity devices specifically. I think the skill 0 base for related fields in each group of specializations was a good way of reflecting this overlap without being unbalancing.

For Example: Someone with Phy Sci (Robotics) 4 would be skilled at designing and building robotics. They could attempt to repair a cybernetic arm, but at skill 0 or likewise for attempting to repair a personal communicator or ships sensors. They could fabricate the parts for a robot at skill 4, or have a Mechanic fabricate the parts (probably in less time), but would have no idea about fabricating hull plating while a Mechanic or Space Engineering (Technician) both could fabricate hull plating. While the Mechanic could make robotic parts given the specifications to work from, he can't come up with the specification and would know nothing about making or repairing the electronics. Someone with Phy Sci (Electronics) 4 could make the electronics components of a robot as well as the Robotics guy, but would know very little about building the mechanical parts, frame, or doing the programming (skill 0).

Also note that I increased the time to perform some tasks using Science skills vs using Mechanic or Space Engineering. Mechanics and Space Engineers routinely perform repairs on a daily basis and thus it becomes routine for them, they learn to do it faster. Someone relying on a science skill will likely be less practiced and thus slower, but has the advantage of being able to work on a broader range of devices as well as make modifications, invent new prototypes and so forth. Again, the points made about that were well taken and I think my solution strikes a good balance between them.

As far as using these with existing characters.
skill points in Mechanics remains the same.
skill points Engineering specialization are combined and can be re-allocated between Technician and Naval Architect, and also Phy Sci (Electronics) as appropriate.
Some career paths that use Engineering (Electronics) simply replace that with Phy Sci (Electronics)
Combat Engineering becomes Structural Engineering (Combat).

Supplement 08 - Cybernetics, p35
Designing and Building Cybernetic Augments
replace table with Physical Science (Cybernetics) in all cases.

Designing Biotech would use Life Science (Genetics).

Both require Medic 3+ to implant them, along with the proper medical facilities.

=======================================================

That's it, I'm pretty happy with what I've come up with, but as always comments and suggestions are welcome and thanks for all the ideas and suggestions thus far (even if we didn't agree, sometimes not agreeing is more helpful). 8)

 

[F33D]

What has come up as a result of some tinkering is what exactly do certain skills DO and are they really necessary to have in the skill list? For example:

A Scholar has Physical Science (Electronics) 4 and is asked to work on the electrical systems of a starship. But, according to the Core Rules, that falls under Engineering (Electronics). That left me wondering, what is the actual difference between the skills?

The only difference is that the "Engineer" might be a bit faster at the job simply because he familiar with the physical layout. They are clearly the same skill. When you see a rule that is illogical, toss it. You'll save yourself headaches & frustration.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Common Sense.

If any player or ref can put forward an even faintly good reason why a skill would work then it works.

Very much my take. Various skills (e.g. "salvage" or "security") have been bolted on in the supplements, very much at the whim of individual writers. I think they were trying to make their supplement seem special and unique, but personally I feel there has been some needless over complication (and don't get me started on the "discipline" skill).

Skills sometimes do overlap. Fine, there is often more than one way to skin a cat ("Trade-Furrier", "Trade-Cook", "Steward", "Animal", "Small Blade" all being possible alternatives).

Egil

 

[CosmicGamer]

Fine, there is often more than one way to skin a cat ("Trade-Furrier", "Trade-Cook", "Steward", "Animal", "Small Blade" all being possible alternatives).Egil

If that cat is an Aslan you better have more than a small blade! :lol:

 

[F33D]

Engineering(Electronics) is the real world that uses 120 Ohm and other stuff to make the design work.

That would be TOTALLY different than what they teach in the current Mil schools then. My uncle got his Engineer (electronics) training in the Navy and what was covered was the same as at any university...