Redundancy/Armour - Which Version?

[Lord David the Denied]

Do we even need more answers that simple remove options? How often do folks take fighters vs the Narn? It's a total waste of time, so folks simply don't do it.

Too many things in this game don't degrade things, they simply trump them.

Ripple

Agreed on this. I can't see a simple way for e-mines not to negate dodge, so changing them so they don't make fighters useless doesn't seem easy. I'd love to see that, though, and given that e-mines can also negate stealth and interceptors they do seem overly powerful in their meta-effects.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Agreed on this. I can't see a simple way for e-mines not to negate dodge, so changing them so they don't make fighters useless doesn't seem easy. I'd love to see that, though, and given that e-mines can also negate stealth and interceptors they do seem overly powerful in their meta-effects.

I'll argue against this one

What we did with the new e-mines was to give Narn players a choice. They can indeed shut down the other player's fighters, if they so choose - but they do so at the cost of being able to hurl powerful Triple Damage weapons against potentially multiple ships. E-Mines now against fighters are pure overkill, especially as many of them are now One-Shot.

As I said, all about choice, which is where we approached 2e from.

 

[AdrianH]

The G'Quan's energy mine is 6D AP. Against a hull 5 target, expect 3 hits for 9 damage, possibly less due to bulkhead hits, and no criticals. Against a hull 6 target, expect 2 hits for 6 damage.

So it's a choice between scraping the paintwork on one or two big ships, mildly hurting one or two small ships, or wiping out some fighters. In fact, if there are enough enemy fighters near me, it's worth nuking my own ship to kill them! (Which might be the only option if the enemy does what my Centauri opponent has been doing lately - keep the fighters on board until range has closed, then declare "Scramble! Scramble!", launch the lot, and have them move next to the Narn ship of their choice on the next turn.)

If you really want to spoil an enemy fighter squadron's day, take a G'Karith. Unlimited energy mines, not even slow-loading, and not multiple damage.

However, I've no problem with the Narn getting energy mines - they did use them on screen, after all, even if only once. And their own fighters aren't likely to win many dogfights, while their ships don't have much conventional anti-fighter defence. But I'd like to see an Energy Mine Non-Proliferation treaty enforced by either the Shadows or Vorlons - anyone except Narn caught using energy mines gets a visit from a Death Cloud or a Planet Killer. :twisted:

 

[Methos5000]

Agreed on this. I can't see a simple way for e-mines not to negate dodge, so changing them so they don't make fighters useless doesn't seem easy. I'd love to see that, though, and given that e-mines can also negate stealth and interceptors they do seem overly powerful in their meta-effects.

I'll argue against this one

What we did with the new e-mines was to give Narn players a choice. They can indeed shut down the other player's fighters, if they so choose - but they do so at the cost of being able to hurl powerful Triple Damage weapons against potentially multiple ships. E-Mines now against fighters are pure overkill, especially as many of them are now One-Shot.

As I said, all about choice, which is where we approached 2e from.

I think the big problem arises from more races being given this 'choice' in 2nd ed and some of the proposed ideas for P&P that would introduce even more. Some will start to feel that having a fighter heavy fleet (or fleets that rely on Dodge/Stealth/Interceptors) would be rendered pointless.

I don't think anyone is completely opposed to the concept of emines (as there is on-screen evidence for it) but many are opposed to so many having access to them.

 

[Tolwyn]

Right, I would appreciate on or more smaller blast radius for other weapons. It does not feel right when more and more races get "Energy Mines"

 

[Foxmeister]

If you really want to spoil an enemy fighter squadron's day, take a G'Karith. Unlimited energy mines, not even slow-loading, and not multiple damage.

True, but in my experience the G'Karith doesn't deliver in the general case - it helps against fighter heavy fleets and towards breaking stealth, but a Dag'Kar or a Var'Nic are almost always better ways of spending a raid point.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

I don't think anyone is completely opposed to the concept of emines (as there is on-screen evidence for it) but many are opposed to so many having access to them.

I tend to agree - there are enought people with the weapon as is..............bet Earth wished they had bought them from the Narn in the Earth Minbari war...................

 

[Grunvald]

The e-mine concept is a great idea.

It becomes a right Pain in the preverbial whenyour fleet uses dodge instead of hull and what do you face.... an entire fleet with e-mines!!!

There are more than enough e-mine weilding races out there without increrasing the number!!

 

[Da Boss]

As I said, all about choice, which is where we approached 2e from.

wasn't there a choice of several different E-mines in 1st ed :wink:

 

[Ripple]

Actually the new E-mines didn't change the circumstance much do to the Dag'kar and the G'Karith, where most mines came from anyway.

Catching two ships or a wiping out a patrol ship worth of fighters, patrol ship worth might be the better choice.

Ripple

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Those TD e-mines aren't much use for hurting ships as has been said, they can't crit - and crits are what kills ships nine times out of ten.

Sure, you can squash a Vorchan or something, but the Narn suck vs fighters otherwise so you might as well keep them for fighther killing - and those pulsar mines are the premier anti-fighter tool going. That they also massacre White Stars is just the icing on the (cheese)cake.

 

[sidewinder]

Yeah, back to what Matt said, if your opponent only took a G'Quon then yeah, he'd have to make a choice. But what narn player doesnt take at least a couple dag'kars.

 

[CZuschlag]

Me. Chalk it up to scruples -- I think the current Dag'Kar is okay in limited numbers, but in masses, it's not a fun game to play. The Var'Nic is an excellent ship anyway, more than capable, and doesn't have some the "I fire this turn, you just take it" effects that a Dag'Kar stack does.

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Back on topic.

I love the idea of a limited number of critical save opportunities, but forcing players to choose very carefully when they use them. It's a game idea I'm stealing from the German games, resource shortage management. When do I have a critical negation, and when don't I? I would be OK with a rule that allows players to negate a critical effect (not so much a fan of the damage or crew, but I'm willing to negociate here) rarely. This could be on a per-ship basis (Redundancy) or a per-game basis (something I call Plot).

We've all heard the phrase "The ship travels at the speed of Plot." This refers to the frequently prevalent lack of consistency in TV Scripts. The ship always makes it just in time, no matter that last time the distance was much longer than this time. The Plot keeps the drama in the show.

The same could hold true in battles. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen here --- the first few criticals generally show the way. Plot points allow you to partially or wholly (I thinkin' here) negate criticals in a battle .... but they are very few and very precious. I'd hand them out based on the size of the scenario. (A first pass might be Patrol, 0; Skirmish 1, Raid 2, Battle 5, War 10. Yes, Patrol fights aren't usually important to a show's Plot, but Wars are!)

This is not on an individual ship, it's across the whole battle. And you have to determine when and where to use it. I've lost the Boresight arc on an Omega in a War-level fight. Is that worth a Plot point (maybe I can concentrate on using my B(a) arc instead?). Stopping a drifting Urik'hal (probably not)?

Now, I'm not sure this helps big ships specifically. I don't think it does (all ships get treated the same, so I haven't given anything to larger ships to help out). That is the main criticism of this idea; it doesn't directly solve the ship balance problem.

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This brings me back to redundancy for ships. I still like the idea of resource shortage management --- it makes for a lot more decision-making on the part of the player instead of the die, always a good thing. So, I'm left with "Ships ignore the player's choice of criticals' effects but not damage/crew". I don't like the save the first crit (no brain usage required) or a save roll on every crit (also, no brain usage required). We'd be looking for something like

Patrol: 0, Skirmish: 0, Raid: 0, Battle: 1, War 2, Armageddon 4.
or
Patrol: 0, Skirmish: 0, Raid: 1, Battle: 3, War: 5, Armageddon 10.

I like the first a LOT more. Later revisions on certain ships can give them redundancy as well; the Rongoth, Rothan, Batrado, Khatrik (not the So), Explorer, T'Loth, and T'Rann might be candidates for this.

 

[sidewinder]

You know, I could work with that. Granted, I'd probably only use my points on vital systems crits, cause if you take one they cant be repaired, but at least youd have the choice.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I would still prefer a proportional system of crit resistance for larger ships, but at least Plot Points would make some kind of sense in having a fixed number.
Also regarding Plot Points though, they just beg to be given other capabilities. Plot demands that you should have made that shot? Use a plot point to either reroll or make 1 die auto hit (something for playtesting to balance). Also, plot seems to be more dependant on the cast than on the size of the ship. To me this says that the number of plot points should be dependant on the captain of the ship. Maybe something like mini-admirals?

 

[Ripple]

Don't take a good idea and kill it by making it overly complicated!

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

Solved my Plot Point flaw. Again, following a Plot commandment "The biggest character/ship in a fight always survives" (seriously, when has a Bond name-level Baddie ever dies in the first 35 minutes of the movie!):

The player who fields the ship with the highest priority in a given scenario always gets one extra Plot Point. If both have the same highest priority level, no one gains a plot point.

Clarification: Admirals' costs are included with the ship in calculating this resulting value.

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Of course, ship redundancy is still easier.

 

[mollari_uk]

I really like the plot point idea but I think it's more suited to one off games or specific scenarios etc. I'm thinking of writing some new scenarios for ACTA that are a bit different to normal so I might inlcude this.

As far as an official rule goes one of the redundancy rules works better for me though.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Agreed. Plot points are a great idea, but off topic in my eyes.

 

[Triggy]

I love the idea of a limited number of critical save opportunities, but forcing players to choose very carefully when they use them. It's a game idea I'm stealing from the German games, resource shortage management. When do I have a critical negation, and when don't I?

This brings me back to redundancy for ships. I still like the idea of resource shortage management --- it makes for a lot more decision-making on the part of the player instead of the die, always a good thing. So, I'm left with "Ships ignore the player's choice of criticals' effects but not damage/crew". I don't like the save the first crit (no brain usage required) or a save roll on every crit (also, no brain usage required). We'd be looking for something like

Patrol: 0, Skirmish: 0, Raid: 0, Battle: 1, War 2, Armageddon 4.
or
Patrol: 0, Skirmish: 0, Raid: 1, Battle: 3, War: 5, Armageddon 10.

I like the first a LOT more. Later revisions on certain ships can give them redundancy as well; the Rongoth, Rothan, Batrado, Khatrik (not the So), Explorer, T'Loth, and T'Rann might be candidates for this.

This is pretty much what I'd be advocating too - it only helps larger ships and it forces player decisions. Also, it only gets used on the harsher crits so players really have to hammer large ships before they take the big crits but will degrade in minor ways much more easily.