Ratio of world info to rules

[Anonymous]

but I think it is very hard to expect a ponderous and detailed exposition of Magnamund.

One reason is that Joe, while he has TONS of details, doesn't have the level of detail for EVERY country and its timeline as maybe Tolkien might or if Lone Wolf had been the subject for 2-3 dozen novels from different authors. I'm GLAD that several authors didn't get a chance to screw with Lone Wolf like Grant/Barnett did, but it means there will be less material.

I think Joe wants us to make up some of our own history and detail, though I agree I'd like a bit more about the details of each nation IF possible. For instance, you read about the normal travel wear of a Bhanarian or the history of Chai's relations with its neighbor and you know there could probably a supplement JUST on this little corner of Magnamund. Or maybe more exposition of the Old Kingdoms, like Ixia before it became undead or Taklakot or the Nebora.

The problem is, not all of this is fully mapped out even by Joe and he may not want it to get out yet until he hammers out more of the details or prints his last 4 books or video games or something.

Damn, I really wish some games came out. Can you imagine exploring in Magnamund?!

 

[Kheti sa-menik]

I think Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are unfair comparisons. Each of these books is devoted purely to the world and requires 3 other hardbacks to provide the rules. Lone Wolf is the equivalent of all 4 books in one. Taking this limitation into consideration, Lone Wolf does an exceptional job of balancing the items and presenting a lot of the world of Magnamund.

It sounds to me like your beef is more to do with LW being OGL.

Well, you're right about that last part being part of the problem. It needn't have been another game wholly Why alter classes, rules? Why not just have made it an alternate setting? Then we'd have, you know, DETAIL about the world. But the OGL part doesn't concern me.
I read the game part...it isn't bad stuff, just not something I'd play....the classes are too specific, the combat rules too simplistic.

But that aside, my main beef is the level of detail given to the world. If a whole book is what it takes to do justice to the setting, then a whole book is what's needed. It;s a perfectly valid comparison. All I heard from Mongoose was that they wanted to maintain the flavor of the world. If that was so important, than they should have given us more on Magnamund.
If it would have taken a whole separate book the size of either the GH or the FR books, then that's what it would have taken.

It seems instead, they took the easy way out and gave a paragraph or two on each country and a vague, not nearly detailed enough history.
That's simply not enough for a GM to use to make a valid, cohesive, flavorfull game. Let's have information on races, ethnicity, religion...details that make it a living breathing world.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, you're right about that last part being part of the problem. It needn't have been another game wholly Why alter classes, rules? Why not just have made it an alternate setting? Then we'd have, you know, DETAIL about the world. But the OGL part doesn't concern me.

Dungeons and Dragons has a very definite set of implied elements that don't feature in every fantasy setting including Lone Wolf and Magnamund. So you would need to change significant parts of the D&D. It then becomes a balancing issue about whether one should create mods or go OGL.

Another reason for Lone Wolf to go OGL is that it makes the game much cheaper to get into. Rather than needing 4 hard back books, just 1 is needed.

Finally, Lone Wolf, like the original books, is a great entry level setting. Dungeons and Dragons is actually quite crunchy and intimidating to those who encounter it for the first time. Hence, going OGL means that LW could target a broader audience.

I read the game part...it isn't bad stuff, just not something I'd play....the classes are too specific, the combat rules too simplistic.

The rules are essentially D&D 3.5. The combat rules are almost identical to D&D 3.5e but are better explained and have AoO removed. Saying they are too simplistic is a statement I find very odd.

As for classes, I have more sympathy as the specific approach is restricing. However, given that it is easy to simply add in less specific classes from D&D, I feel like I am given more than is taken away. The specific classes do add a lot, especially when considering LWs target audience. It is also very consistent with the flavour of the books.

But that aside, my main beef is the level of detail given to the world. If a whole book is what it takes to do justice to the setting, then a whole book is what's needed. It;s a perfectly valid comparison. All I heard from Mongoose was that they wanted to maintain the flavor of the world. If that was so important, than they should have given us more on Magnamund.

I disagree. I want more Magnamund too but that feeling should occur with any good setting. I feel that they gave justice to Magnamund in the main book taking all things into account. There is certainly enough in the book to get going with and that knowledge can easily be expanded by going to Project Aon.

There are also commercial conerns here too. With a setting the size of Magnamund, no book could have convered it all. The same is true of any good setting. LW is getting good support and Darklands and MoM have nicely expanded the core setting.

Let's have information on races, ethnicity, religion...details that make it a living breathing world.

Much of this information is contained amongst the various classes. An unorthodox idea but one that works, and is particularly successful in MoM by making the book both a wonderful player and GM resource.

 

[ParanoidObsessive]

If it meant we'd get a decent book ABOUT Magnamund, than I'd be willing to buy two-three books.

You would, but most buyers wouldn't. It basically boils down to audience... while Mongoose knows that most of the people buying a Lone Wolf RPG are people who are familiar with the original books, they also hope to at least draw in SOME new gamers (because, as has been proven over and over again, no matter HOW devoted a game's fans are, if there's no fresh blood, the game dies).

That being said, the initial book offers enough general details for someone unfamiliar with Lone Wolf to be able to mock up a game, whereas someone FAMILIAR with Lone Wolf (generally anyone who's read the books, though almost certainly anyone who had/has the Magnamund Companion) has their own experience and vision to add to the details in the main book.

Now, the NEXT step would be for Mongoose to come out with some sort of World of Magnamund-style book to fill in the minute details.

I am going to point to two world books here that are examples....The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting and the Greyhawk Gazetteer.

The problem is, as printed, neither of those two books can actually be USED to run a game - D&D has always sort of put out the generic setting/rules books first, then followed with the more in-depth setting books later.

So, it goes back to the same scenario - a "starter" book with rules and general details, then an "advanced" book to fill in the blanks.

Well, you're right about that last part being part of the problem. It needn't have been another game wholly Why alter classes, rules?

Playability? The rules as Joe Dever presented them in the books were fine for single-player, story-driven games... though, in a multi-player environment, where players demand more flexibility, it's not as good.

Considering that Maganmund itself grew out of Joe's old D&D games, it's not utter heresy to bring more D20 into the rules.

As for classes... almost everyone you MEET in a Lone Wolf book comes across as either being "non-important NPC-type", who you KNOW will either be dead or gone by the end of the book, or falls quite clearly into a defined class (Kai, Crystal Star, Knights of the White Mountain, Vakeros... and so on).

I might agree that SOME of the classes chosen for inclusion in the main book aren't necessarily the ones I would have chosen (the Telchoi? Who was clamoring to play one?), but it DOES create a general spread, which the later books add to.

Why not just have made it an alternate setting? Then we'd have, you know, DETAIL about the world. But the OGL part doesn't concern me.

I hate D&D. Allow me to elaborate - I hate generic, main-book D&D. I was never able to get into Greyhawk or Dragonlance, and Eberron just looks annoying to me. But, for some reason, Forgotten Realms has always been of some interest to me.

There is something to be said for a "feel" of a game, making it more than just generic fantasy. The setting certainly helps, but those extra little "quirks" of the rules also do their part towards shaping a game. White Wolf's World of Darkness probably would not be the same game without the Storyteller System (and, in fact, now that it's more D20-fied, I find I don't enjoy it as much as I used to).

I'm not going to say the rules as presented in the main book were the best possible variation... but it's certainly better than just releasing an all-setting book, then expecting people to use the generic D&D rule-set to play it.

I read the game part...it isn't bad stuff, just not something I'd play....the classes are too specific, the combat rules too simplistic.

Probably so as not to discourage new players... new players tend to LIKE stricter classes - that way, they make fewer mistakes while learning the game. Also, if the combat gets TOO complex, it means fewer people will ever be willing to learn the game. To this day, I consider TimeLords (BTRC) to be one of the better RPGs ever made - but NO ONE ever wants to play it, due to the torturously complex rule system (if you have to use a scientific calculator in a game, there's a problem).

But that aside, my main beef is the level of detail given to the world. If a whole book is what it takes to do justice to the setting, then a whole book is what's needed.

I agree that an entire setting book should be done - I'll do you one better, I think there should be two separate books, one for Northern Magnamund, and one for Southern Magnamund. I think most people here agree that a more in-depth setting book needs to be released.

I think where the disagreement comes is in whether that setting book needs to be the first released. Much like White Wolf (yes, I played for 10+ years, it colors my thinking) would put out a general rulebook, then follow with the more specific splatbooks to add detail, I think the more generalized rulebook was the right way to go with Lone Wolf.

If it would have taken a whole separate book the size of either the GH or the FR books, then that's what it would have taken.

Let's look at it another way.

Let's say Mongoose puts out the rulebook, but doesn't include the Gazetteer. They then keep that extra out, and put it out in one or two setting books, which follow the initial release.

This would be quite nice... but it also leaves the first book fairly useless to anyone who's never actually played Lone Wolf before. For that matter, most people who've played but don't have the Magnamund Companion are going to have trouble as well.

Telling a gamer that they need multiple books before they can even START playing, especially when the game in question is something of a niche setting, and you've pretty much demolished any hope of getting new gamers to play. The way they did things, if nothing else, opens the door to new gamers to say, hmm, I kind of like this.

The short blurbs given on each kingdom are sparce, true, but anyone who's played fantasy RPG in the past can probably fill in the missing details themselves. Will THEIR Magnamund be the same as everyone else's? Probably not - not even the same as Joe Dever's. But if they're having fun, who cares? Why does their game have to conform to any particular standard?

If more in-depth info is released later, a GM could easily use that as well... but if I decide that the Tianese people are all clearly of "Germanic tribal"-type stock, are the RPG police going to come and arrest me?

So yes, I wholeheartedly support the idea of asking (begging, pleading, demanding, etc) a more in-depth setting book (or two). But I don't think the LACK of that initially ruins the game beyond repair.