Radioactives

[agentwigggles]

What are we using this stuff for, outside of medical applications, and possible niche industrial ones?

Long term power production, but Mongoose just kabushed that.

Reverse the nuclear damper, and recycle used rods.

Unless it's cheaper to mine it.

Well radioactive have a lot of industrual uses.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, this is an MTU/YTU thing. There is an understandable desire to treat the game mechanics as the reality physics and to then make everything as optiminal as possible. The space station, as deisng is probably rules legal. Its assuming that that perfect moedule exists. Its assuming that there werent compromises to its design. Its assuming thats its on site and doesnt need to be transported.
My post, I assume you buy most of what you need off the shelf. It shouldnt wouldnt be at a home depot, and it wouldnt be on the same planet. Have to ship it all in, and the desire planet seems to be isolated shit hole, you'll need to pay for the shipment going in and pay for the ship going back out. This doesnt matter if the cargo ships manage to pick up cargo for its return trip. You cant gaurentee that. So call it like 80-100dton to transporting the 60dton mining encapement. So need at least a 300dton ship. Call it a 1m a month. Thats pay for all the stuff the ship needs, the crew and profit margin. So 250k per week. Or about 35k a day. Probably an M1, so fall it 1 day to get to the planet, 1 day back out, and 1 day to unload. 105k. 2 weeks of jump. 605k. 605k per import trip. Assuming its 1 parsect away from the source location.

Seriously? Did you not read the rules in the Trade Section of the CRB? Jump-2 costs 1,600Cr/ton. A 60-ton Mining Module costs 96,000Cr per Jump-2. Even if you have to pay for an empty ship travelling back, that is still only 192,000Cr, not 35k per day. My work around was simple. I ship a 95-ton shuttle with the Module in its cargo bay, so in My case it was 105 tons or 168,000Cr to ship it to the local starport if you purchased it 2 parsecs away. The world I purchased it on was Tobia. Tobia will have everything. They are Ht, In, and on a major trade route, both J-2 and J-3. All of the other expenses you describe are covered by the 1,600Cr/J-2 jump.

I am not familar with any large module industrial machine that doesnt need to be installed and assembled on site.

Drinaxian Companion pg 80, "Starship Components such as staterooms, power plant and cargo handling systems are bought at their normal tonnage but a quarter of their usual cost – building a base is less complex than constructing a starship that will not fall apart at the first opportunity. In addition, some starship-type components are available, which are specific to base construction. Starship components can be shipped to the base in a dismantled condition and put together there. This reduces the amount of tonnage required to ¼ the item’s usual displacement. Alternatively, starship components can be brought to the base site fully operational and plugged in. This requires the components to be built as a detachable module and if they are to be used whilst aboard the carrying vessel, as opposed to being eventually just carried as cargo, then the full cost must be paid"

We'll cheat and say, you dont need to like level the site, and provide drainage and give ti a cement foundation so it doesnt just sink into the ground. Call assembly a month. Import the work crew. 605k. Workcrew is paid on their way in and out. Call it like 5? 10 construnction members. 2 cooks? 1 medic. Temp housing. Say thats like 15 grand. Barrack housing. Cafeteria. Probably double this, if the planet isnt short sleeve planet. And double the pay if the planet isnt short shirt sleeve planet. 9k for a month for the woerks. 2k for the supervisor. 2k for the cooks. 4k for the medic. 17k in labor. 13k in life support. We're not worried abbout consumables used in construnctions. Like argon gas or replacement welder tips or safety equipment.

Offworld Construction Master Robot and its drones. 64m3 per hour for the lot of them, half that if they have to mining too. (In My case they do not, because I also brought Mining Drones and a Construction Nano Queen.) Pad for the shuttle? 105 tons or 1,470m3 divided by the 48m3 per hour from the drones, gets you 30 hours, or a day and a half since the drones can only operate 20 hours of the day. It is manned by 2 guys, engineers. (Good Engineers, skill/3, so 16k per month)

Now the mining module is set up.

Now it is Day 2.

I dont know if you ever worked in IT or have friends who do. Setting up equipment, isnt free in manhours.
So need a new workcrew. 605k. The good news is if you're able to time everything well and there no like set backs, like say bad weather or the end of the world, you can use the ship bringing the new workcrew to take home the previous work crew. If you cant get the time right. 605k to send them home.
Call it 5 IT folks, and 5 mechanics/engineers. 2 cooks. 1 medic.
13k in lifesupport. 40k a month for the IT folks and Engineers. 2k for the cooks. 4k for the medic. So 46k a month.
Call it a month to get the whole facility systems working, to get the 18 robots working.

Again, only 2 workers, both Owners, so you don't actually have to pay them, but We are anyhow. Maintenance is easy. Total cost of the facility x 0.001 divided by 13 (cause 12 months makes no sense when you have 365 days in a year.) That covers the maintenance for everything and you know what Construction Drones can be used as? Repair Drones. RH pg 210, "Offworld Construction Drone (OCD)Operated remotely by a skilled construction worker or an Offworld Construction Master Robot (see page 165), the OCD is a blocky construction machine fitted with gecko-coated tracks to operate in microgravity. In addition to construction equipment allowing the machine to construct up to five cubic metres of building per hour, the OCD is equipped with a varied set of tools to facilitate installation and repairs of electronic and starship components. If stowed aboard a starship, the OCD consumes one ton of space and can be used as a repair drone, although it is unable to fit through standard hatches and iris valves."

So the spacestation needs 1 person to do all the things. Fine. You cant really expect 1 person to work there 7/24 on this outpost for the rest of their life? So, it cant be one person. So at least 2.

It is just 2. I don't know where you live, but I live in Honduras. Here many people work their businesses 16+ hours a day everyday without stopping for 40+ years. The guys in the mining colony work 8 hours a day, basically playing video games, since the OCMR and Construction Nano Queen basically build everything and run the mining drones. The 8 Mining Drones put out roughly 100-tons per week. Also, this is an on-planet mining colony, not a space station. Good Atmosphere.

They do a 4 on, 4 off type deal. They're isolated doing industrial mining with cancer dust. Probbably need a medic. And they cant be on call 7/24/365. So at least 2. They also do a 4 on, 4 off type deal. I would be willing to bet hard money that Chris Griffin would agree with me robots and drones need repairs and maintaince. So at least 2 mechanics. Though this might be where you need a lot more. It depends how many man hours of maintaince they need per hour of working. Offshore works in IRL, seem to do abbout 1 on, 1 off. So need to cycle out work crews once a month. 605k per crew exchange. 24k in labor per month. 6k in life support. But there a biosphere. So lets cut that in half to 3k.

The first things built after the pad for the modules and the pad for the shuttle are 10-tons of Common Area (outdoors, in the shirt sleeve environment of the planet.

The biosphere doesnt make toliet paper, or shampoo, or band aids or lube or filters.
The other thing you havent addressed is knowing where to mine. Since this is for a game you're currently running, this can already be answered. But the question wasnt framed with that worked out.

Densitometer with a Mineral Sensor. Range? more than 100km. Finding the ore is easy, by the rules, if the ore is there to find.

The existing population knows of some sites, and are exploiting them. They may have prior mining survey. And they are probably tripple digit in age. This step I can see PC ignoring and just rolling the dice in a metaphorical sense and use the old data. The mining concern is module and mobile. So they can just move it, if it turn out to be a dud. A new survey of the planet, probably cost somewhere around 1.2m amonth, maybe more. And lets assume, you dont survey the entire planet. You stop the survey when the survey effort find a site with high confidence to have high grade ore what you're after.
The spacestation rules dont have any consideration for how long it takes to get planet side mining site operation. It also doesnt care abbout transit time for the space rock.

What space rock? It is a planet-side mine.

It also doesnt care about amount of time it takes to crush the rock to get the ore. It gives you numbers when you're hit the paydirt.

Yes it does. 1D6 tons per day in micro-gravity or 8m3 per hour per mining drone in non-microgravity. Then this goes to a Mineral Refinery, which tells you exactly how long is required to turn your mined rocks into 50% Common Ore, 30% Uncommon Ore, 15% Crystals, and 5% Precious Metals.

So you dont to just plop the mining site, and then magically it starts getting ore. It has to build the mine. Based on real life time frames, thats 10-15 years. TL12, TL15 can probably reduce that.

I am using the game rules, because We are playing a game.

How much money does it cost to build the mine? I dont know. I cant find any numbers that would require an investment to understand that I dont want to do. Though, its a lot. I like using 1m for baseline price of expensive for Traveller. In case that wasnt obvious. 1m a month. Without going through POD base construnction rules, lets say that TL15 infrastructure and tools cut the time down to 5 years.
So 60 months. 60 millions. 60 crew rotations. 36.3 millions. 60 months of wages. 1.24 million in wages. 180k in life support. And 60 months of maintaince of the space station. Thats expensive.

Again. No. 60MCr for the modules and delivery on-site. I have all of the rules in front of Me for how much it would cost to build a mining colony. Let's say that We use game rules instead of just pulling random numbers out of Our asses.

This is also assuming there was no issue with the site. Pirates or end of the worlds.
Then there a few other questions that spacestation mining concern doesnt have to worry about. Tailings. The waste products. You're producing 100 dtons of ore per day. This is actual ore. So that means you're mining 1000 dtons 5000 dtons ore per day to get that.
You have several thousand tons of tailing to deal with it. You have several thousand tons of cancer to deal with.

Not in Traveller. The Traveller rules say that there is waste in the fluff text, but when they actually wrote the math? No waste. Doesn't make sense, but those are the rules.

The other thing your spacestation doesnt address is logistics. You have ore. Are you making an E class starport at your mining concern? Or are you shipping it to the spaceport. So you'll want a shuttle.

Started with a shuttle, so no issues. First thing built was a landing pad, see above. Not that anything is actually getting sold. After the refinery, the material goes to the Smelter, which turns the Common and Uncommon Ores into Common and Uncommon Raw Materials. From there, the raw materials are turned into either Basic Manufacturing Plant goods or Advanced Manufacturing Plant good. After this, the Advanced goods can be turned into Specialist Manufacturing Plant goods. This increases the value at every step, while being used as the material to expand the base and robotic workforce through the construction robots. Once the the colony reaches whatever size the Owner wants, then it can switch to building products for sale elsewhere.

15 million to purchase. 2 pilots. The shuttle has 64 tons of cargo space. It'll do 2 trips a day. With Thrust 3, thats easily done. Might even be able to hire out the shuttle. But lets assume you cant.

Already included in the initial price.

Shuttle will cost 1.2k a month, plus 5k in fuel a month.

Fuel is free. No j-drive, no need for refined fuel. The planet has a Hydrographics Code of 1 or above.

2 pilots, is 8k a month.

No jump drive, why pay a pilot for a ship that mostly just sits there? Auto-pilot.

The space station will need an internal hangar so you can do repairs on the shuttle, and stop the elements from beating down on it. Or pay for hangar space at the spaceport on planet.

Again. No space station. It is a mining colony on a planetary surface. You do not need an internal hangar to work on ships if they are in a breathable atmosphere and you have a workshop. Which I do. I was part or the original cost.

I tend to look at boat docking storage fees and airplane hangar fees. Something like few thousand a month. You probably want a mechanic/engineer for the shuttle too, as the mechanics you have the entire base and the 18 robots to take care of. But silcon valley start up mentality is popular, so make everyone as overworked as possible.

The only over-work these 2 guys will be getting is overworking their livers. They are basically supervisors/drone operators. They give the robots instructions, the robots command the drones. They sit back and watch, mostly.

Since there is so much danger in this area, as by the possible plots proposed for this site, then you'd probably want to doubble all the wages. Hazard pay. Unless we're assuming all the folks that live in the subsector dont understand where they're being asked to work is fraught with, you know, death.

This is every job in the Borderlands.

And you probably get charge nother 50 percent or double to ship things out. If somehow the workers never understand where they're being sent to is deadly, the shipping companies would. They have fancy actuarial tables.

This is not in the game rules anywhere. Is it?

With so much danger, you probably want a SDB. Or mercs. Or both. Which is just even more money.
It would seem to be a bad idea to open up a mine in Somalia.

By your logic, no one would ever open a mine anywhere and belters wouldn't exist. I have an SDB, the shuttle. It is just a really crappy SDB.

 

[agentwigggles]

YTU free traders and transport companies will go to delivers that they will only lose money on?

 

[Condottiere]

Subsidized shipping.

Your tax bux at work.

 

[agentwigggles]

Subsidized shipping.

Your tax bux at work.

Its a nacsent private colony. The folks that would subsidize it, would be the folks setting up the colony, no?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Its a nacsent private colony. The folks that would subsidize it, would be the folks setting up the colony, no?

It is on a trade route. Do you pay for DHL or UPS to drive their trucks both ways? Ships are going there anyhow, so why would it cost more than the listed shipping cost per ton of Freight?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Do you pay for DHL or UPS to drive their trucks both ways?

In a way, you probably do. It just does not appear on the invoice...

 

[MasterGwydion]

In a way, you probably do. It just does not appear on the invoice...

In a game, if it is not in the rules, there is no system for it. In real life, I doubt it. They are not going to calculate the distance from their warehouse to your house, to their next stop, and their next, etc. to charge you differently than the flat rate they charge. One day, they may, when their computers and programs get up to speed, but they don't have it yet. When My company sent out packages, FedEx picked it up from Our door for free (no price difference between them picking it up in Our office versus a secretary taking to the FedEx office to send it) and took it to their distribution center. Price was determined by size, weight, method of travel, distance between the distribution centers, and speed desired. In Traveller the price is determined by jump distance and how many jumps are required, that is all. Unless I have missed something in the rules?

 

[agentwigggles]

It is on a trade route. Do you pay for DHL or UPS to drive their trucks both ways? Ships are going there anyhow, so why would it cost more than the listed shipping cost per ton of Freight?

Well now I am confused. You said that this colony doesn't have any products and won't be selling ore.
Which to means that there nothing for them to get flying out.

 

[Condottiere]

Depending on the situation, you don't have to worry about environmental impact.

Health and safety may not be an issue.

You could set up processing plant next to the mine, which means that whatever you ship refined, is going to be a lot more value added per tonne.

If it's important enough to the economies to where your market is, you could lobby for tax exemption and maybe subsidization of any part of the value added chain.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well now I am confused. You said that this colony doesn't have any products and won't be selling ore.
Which to means that there nothing for them to get flying out.

They would be having the shuttle transported in on a cargo ship. To get them to the system initially. After that, nothing needs transported.

 

[Galadrion]

In a game, if it is not in the rules, there is no system for it. In real life, I doubt it. They are not going to calculate the distance from their warehouse to your house, to their next stop, and their next, etc. to charge you differently than the flat rate they charge.

In aggregate, they already have. The flat fee is set to (if they've calculated everything correctly) exceed their costs for all of those items, and thus their expenses are already paid for. Then the shipper pays for their service (the flat fee), and pass it along to the consumer, in the form of a Shipping & Handling fee charged to the customer as part of the purchase price. (If your seller advertises "Free shipping", then the S&H fee is added to - and concealed in - the purchase price. Basic, elementary economics.)

 

[MasterGwydion]

In aggregate, they already have. The flat fee is set to (if they've calculated everything correctly) exceed their costs for all of those items, and thus their expenses are already paid for.

They don't. They just know that their trucks only travel so far from their warehouse. If I send a package to two addresses in the same city, one a mile away from the distribution center and the other 15 miles away, the price is the same. I am not paying for that plane to fly back to My city. The plane is not flying back empty. The people with packages on that plane are paying the cost of the return trip. Also, that plane might not even be going back to My city. It could be flying on to a different city, still loaded with packages from My city that aren't for here as well as whatever they picked up in the city they delivered to.

Then the shipper pays for their service (the flat fee), and pass it along to the consumer, in the form of a Shipping & Handling fee charged to the customer as part of the purchase price. (If your seller advertises "Free shipping", then the S&H fee is added to - and concealed in - the purchase price. Basic, elementary economics.)

Hidden prices are just Capitalism 101. If a company says "free", they are lying. Simple as that. In this case, there is no free shipping. The shipping is getting paid, 1,600Cr/ton/jump 2. Nothing free about it. Nothing added on to it either. The book says it is 1,600/ton/jump 2, so that is what it is. You guys really like to over-complicate things.

 

[MongooseMatt]

If a company says "free", they are lying. Simple as that. In this case, there is no free shipping.

Unless, of course, you are in the UK or US and order more than £100/$150 from Mongoose...

 

[agentwigggles]

Unless, of course, you are in the UK or US and order more than £100/$150 from Mongoose...

So you're saying we build a mine out of mongoose books...