Quick Skill Training to Level 0?

[cjs65]

I've just started a new Traveller game and would like to hear people's opinions on a skill issue.

I'm running a 'classic' style game where the players have a Free Trader and are trading/adventuring along the Spinward Main. Two of the characters have no Vacc Suit skill at all.

Do you think it reasonable to allow them to pick up level 0 in the skill with a two week training course? It sounds very sensible to me but I have some concerns about whether this will be opening the way for abuse of the system - suddenly acquiring level 0 in a number of skills with very little effort.

:?:

 

[rust]

In my setting I use a training time of 2 weeks for "physical" and 3 weeks
for "mental" skills to gain Level 0, with both types of skills requiring an ex-
perienced trainer of at least Level 1 to be present.

 

[Megacredit]

It takes a number of weeks = to the total skill levels you have to train a level 0 skill. Raising a skill takes that many weeks +x where x=the skill level you want to obtain.

EX: If I have medic 1 and 12 total skill it takes me 14 weeks (12+x) to get medic 2.

8)

 

[rust]

It takes a number of weeks = to the total skill levels you have to train a level 0 skill. Raising a skill takes that many weeks +x where x=the skill level you want to obtain.

Yep, this is the "official" rule, but this rule does not really convince me.

Someone with a total of 12 skill levels would need 12 weeks to learn a
new level 0 skill, while another person with a total of 6 skills levels would
only need 6 weeks - the less knowledge and experience someone has,
the faster he learns a new skill ?

This may seem right from a game design point of view, but it feels com-
pletely wrong from a setting point of view.

Just imagine the experienced engineer with lots of skill levels in enginee-
ring and science skills who wants to add Sensors 0 to his skills, and has
to realize that the young drifter with no skills but Looking Cool and Che-
wing Gum While Walking can pick up the very same skill in less than half
the time ...

 

[Gaidheal]

Well, first remember that 'level zero' is not 'no real skill' it's "I know what I am meant to do but I haven't done it that often before", whereas 'untrained' is literally "I saw this on a holovid once..."

In your example then, we're talking about becoming fully proficient in the use of an advanced piece of lifesaving kit where a failure to 'do it right' could actually kill a character. Two weeks of intensive, "live it, breathe it" Vacc suit training might very well be enough but two weeks of "train in spare time between other duties, my recreation, meals, etc" probably isn't... and would they really be prepared to take that kind of chance?

The "unskilled drifter picks it up faster than my mighty engineer" boils down to "What else does the drifter know that he has to retain his proficiency in?"; don't forget that 'in real life' highly skilled professionals have to take refresher courses to make sure they still have a thorough grounding in the basics of their field and that they're up to speed on any new techniques, theories and practices precisely because you are liable to forget what you do not actively use regularly if you have quite a broad skillset which you've developed to a high level of proficiency.

 

[cjs65]

It takes a number of weeks = to the total skill levels you have to train a level 0 skill. Raising a skill takes that many weeks +x where x=the skill level you want to obtain.

EX: If I have medic 1 and 12 total skill it takes me 14 weeks (12+x) to get medic 2.

8)

Thanks, my bad, I should have pointed out that I know the official rule for learning skills - I just don't like it and I'm trying to go for a more 'real world' feel.

Has anyone come up with a decent system for developing skills? I just don't think the RAW have got it right. I know CT didn't really deal with skill development at all, and it's not really the focus of a typical Traveller game, but IRL people do learn... and forget...

Thanks for the answers so far!

 

[zanwot]

2 options:

* Create temporary -2 and -1 levels, that way your players can achieve a measurable improvement quickly without gamebreaking. The thing is level 0 makes so much of a difference it definitly should not be *given* away.

* Make the level 0 temporary, the player looses it if he stops training and/or practising before he finishes the full training. Also only authorise one such temporary level 0 at a time, so basically each player can add himself a single extra skill at level 0 depending on what is needed at the time, so long as he plans a week or two ahead.

 

[rust]

The "unskilled drifter picks it up faster than my mighty engineer" boils down to "What else does the drifter know that he has to retain his proficiency in ...

Yes and no.

First, you assume that the engineer intends to retain his proficiency in
all his other level 0 skills, but that is not necessarily the case.
In my setting I allow characters to learn specific level 0 skills for spe-
cific missions, and if they do not use these skills after those missions,
they lose the level 0 skills quite quickly.

Second, someone with expert knowledge in a related field should be able
to learn a new skill more quickly than someone without such prior know-
ledge.
Someone with a degree in physics should find it much easier to learn the
basics of planetology than someone with a training as an accountant or a
steward.

 

[phild]

2 options:

* Create temporary -2 and -1 levels, that way your players can achieve a measurable improvement quickly without gamebreaking. The thing is level 0 makes so much of a difference it definitly should not be *given* away.

This was going to be my suggestion. Letting a PC pick up zero skill in 2 weeks devalues all the zero skills you pick up in chargen and severely challenges the underlying logic of the skill system. However, reduce the penalty and there's some benefit there... all be it temporary.

 

[phild]

Second, someone with expert knowledge in a related field should be able to learn a new skill more quickly than someone without such prior knowledge. Someone with a degree in physics should find it much easier to learn the basics of planetology than someone with a training as an accountant or a steward.

The Average Argument: Yes, in the real world, there would be a tendency on the average for this to be the case. But you cannot uniformly say this for 100% of physics degrees, because the huge qualitative differences in the capabilities of the pool of individuals. Thus an abstract chargen system leaves it to you to explain why your character differs from the average, rather than making all characters with identical skill profiles have exactly the same adaptability and learning potential.

The Thin End of the Wedge Argument: In the real world, having a high DEX is likely to mean not only that you're better at physical actions, but that you pick up the skills for those actions more quickly (indeed, an adolescent propensity to picking up physical skills may lead to a higher adult Dexterity - skill/stat, chicken/egg?!). Someone with high levels of Athletics is likely to pick up Melee Combat more quickly. Someone with Zero-G ought to pick up Vacc Suit more easily. Hell, someone with Gun Combat (slug pistol) really should pick up Gun Combat (energy pistol) more easily. Where do you want this to end? Real life is extremely complex: abstraction is usually better for this very reason!

 

[rust]

Has anyone come up with a decent system for developing skills?

Perhaps ...

Since learning new skills is an important part of the character's lives in my
setting, I have designed a system that is based upon:

- whether a skill is "physical" or "mental", with "mental" skills taking longer
to learn and improve,

- whether the character already has some related skills that could make it
easier for him to learn the new one,

- whether an experienced trainer or a computer training program (possi-
ble only for some "mental" skills) is available,

- whether the character can afford to pay the trainer (minimum: double
monthly wage of the trainer's profession) or to buy the computer softwa-
re (frighteningly expensive - 120,000 Credits for a science skill is just a
start).

The success of the training is determined by the intelligence of the charac-
ter and a skill roll of the trainer.

If any skill is not used within a year, it drops one level. Skills of level 2 or
better can not drop below level 0, skills of level 1 and level 0 can get lost
completely.

This is the basic framework of the system, I hope it gives an impression
of the idea. Unfortunately the system is written in German, and I am too
lazy to try to translate it.

 

[CosmicGamer]

One thing to remember is that the GM decides when something needs to be rolled for and the difficulty.

In MTU, anyone who is crew or passenger on a ship would have been given instructions on safety equipment. Like a stewardess telling you about the drop down oxygen masks. If you have skill level 0 or better, no roll would be required to don a vacc suit. If you've been given instruction, no roll would be required. If you read the manual or watch a tutorial no roll is required. This type of training is not indefinite, but you usually obtain it each time you are a passenger or on a regular basis if you are crew. You do not, however, get a skill level from this instruction. A stow away with no skill and people without any instruction or a related skill would have to roll to determine if they properly don and seal a vacc suit. Battle dress skill would be related and you would not need to roll for putting on a vacc suit. This type of training would not help you determine the cause of a vacc suit malfunction or many other tasks related to a vacc suit.

Also, according to the rules, certain tasks would be repeated until success. The book states that the referee can just assume you succeed unless there is consequences for failure. Failing to put a Vacc Suit on properly would have consequences, but there are indicators that let you know when there is no seal and the unskilled person attempting it would keep trying until the indicators turn green. One possible consequence of being trained but unskilled is that it will take you longer to succeed. Maybe you were trained for 20 minutes, 2 days, or 2 weeks. There may be no roll to determine if you succeed, but in each case it may take a different amount of time to succeed.

Often I use a characters background and related skills to determine if a roll is needed. Does someone who has worked on a bridge as a pilot for 12 years but has no comm skill know how to send a distress message? Does a passenger who has no comm skill, comes from a low tech world, has never used a comm or a computer, and this is their first time on a ship know how to send a distress message?

I also often use a skill roll not to determine success/failure but solely for determining effect. In one case, putting on a vacc suit, a roll of 11 might indicate you succeed very quickly and a 3 might indicate you take a long time to succeed. In another case, interacting with a customs inspector when you have nothing to hide, a roll of 11 might indicate you succeed and have gained the trust of this person and get positive DMs on future dealings while a roll of 3 might still be a success but the person is distrustful of you and you get a negative DM on future encounters with this person.

I do agree that the skill system presented in the book is far from perfect. I see it as just a rudimentary start. There is plenty of room to add details to learning new skills. Adding your own additions to fit YTU is encouraged within the rules themselves. I understand that mercenary, which I don't own, has provided an addition to the core rules with some sort of Instruction skill.

 

[Gaidheal]

For my money, the abstraction argument is where it's really at... Traveller is not trying to be RoleMaster; too much argument along the lines of "In real life..." isn't helpful. That said, if this is an issue that stretches believability for your players (or even you as the GM), fix it as you see fit...

I think CosmicGamer probably makes the most valid point of all, though; for many tasks relating to a Vacc Suit the skill's not really required, even at zero level - only when there is some sort of game pressure does it become critical and in that scenario, yes, the person who invested a couple of months mastering the skill does indeed stand a much better chance of success and therefore, survival.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Agreed, I would not worry about them rolling to put on a Vacc Suit in normal situations. They can use the built-in checklist and get everything right.

BUT, if they are putting on the suit during an explosive decompression situation, then they have to roll with the Unskilled DM. Maybe after a month or so, make that a -2 instead of a -3 and then a month later a -1 then after 3 months of drills and on-again, off-again practice, they get that Level 0 skill. Remember, putting on a Vacc Suit and getting an airtight seal might be considered an EASY task, so even with the -3 DM, most unskilled people will make that roll.

Remember, there is more to operating a Vacc Suit than putting it on correctly. You have to be able to change the oxygen system, patch a hole while wearing those bulky gloves. Operate the HUD using those funny tongue movements (or using the right verbal commands at higher TL). Vacc Suit skill includes maintenance and repair, not just operation.

 

[rust]

For my money, the abstraction argument is where it's really at... Traveller is not trying to be RoleMaster; too much argument along the lines of "In real life..." isn't helpful. That said, if this is an issue that stretches believability for your players (or even you as the GM), fix it as you see fit...

In my view it depends a lot on the specific setting and campaign.

For example, in my current campaign most of the characters will be new
colonists, recently arrived on a frontier world. They have to learn the "ba-
sic package" of skills required to live and work on their new homeworld,
so I decided to introduce a system that makes it comparatively easy for
the characters to aquire a number of new low level skills in a plausibly -
not "realistic" - "fast" way.

With other types of settings and campaigns, I would most probably not
use the same system, and the characters would find it more difficult to
aquire additional skills.

 

[Madarin Dude]

Depends on the skill. Vacc Suit is generally just given away by me at level 0. You can say if you were in the Navy, Scouts, Belters, Marines, Merchants, you have it if you ever spent more than a few weeks in a starship you got it. Traveller is deadly enough without crippling characters by making them have no skill in Vacc suit and roll and die.

Other skills will take a bit more. Some things are just basic to space travel.

 

[Gaidheal]

I can see where you are coming from but I know enough people who served on ships and cannot really swim to point out that it's not necessarily so... :¬)

 

[kristof65]

I can see where you are coming from but I know enough people who served on ships and cannot really swim to point out that it's not necessarily so... :¬)

Swimming isn't always a necessary skill to survive a ship wreck, though. Donning a life vest is a more applicable comparison. The USN doesn't drill it's sailors in swimming, but it certainly does enough lifeboat/lifevest drills to keep that skill proficient for it's sailors - it wants them to be able to find and on their life vest asap.

Yes, a life vest is a lot less technically challenging than a Vacc Suit - but a vacc suit is pretty much the equivilent of a space life vest.

Like others, I assume anyone in a previous spacer career has Vacc Suit 0. Even after one term of a spacer career, it should be drilled into you.

I also don't agree with MgT's skill learning system. It's too abstract and metagamey. I have yet to decide what I'm going to replace it with, but it will more probably be based upon base attributes and training duration/intensity variable than total skill levels.

 

[Dave Chase]

Thanks, my bad, I should have pointed out that I know the official rule for learning skills - I just don't like it and I'm trying to go for a more 'real world' feel.

Has anyone come up with a decent system for developing skills? I just don't think the RAW have got it right. I know CT didn't really deal with skill development at all, and it's not really the focus of a typical Traveller game, but IRL people do learn... and forget...

Thanks for the answers so far!

Well here is something that I created that would allow you to generate skills for a character whether PC or NPC. This is based on CT rules but should work for MGT also.


Term 0, failed to achieve and out on their own, no trade or background beyond school (highschool)
2 skills open to civilians one is may be level 1 other is level 0

Each term gives you 4 skill points to buy skills (that are available to your profession or the activitiy of that term)

So by Term 4 you would have 16 skill points.

Your total skill levels can not equal more than your Edu+Int. (this is so that you never have wasted skill points.)

Level 0 skills costs 1 skill point
Level 1 skills costs 1 additional skill point
Level 2 skills costs 1 additional skill point
First level 3 skill costs 1 additional skill point, second & third level 3 skills costs 2 additional skill points. Each additonal level 3 skill costs additional skill points equal to the number of previous level 3 skills
First level 4 skill costs 1 additional Skill point, second level 4 skill costs 2 additional skill points, each additional level 4 skill costs equal to the number of previous level 4 skills
First Level 5 skill costs 1 additional Skill point, second level 5 skill costs 3 additional skill points, each additional level 5 skill costs equal to number of pervious level 5 skills +3 additional skill points
First Level 6 skill costs 1 additional skill point, ONLY one level 6 skill per character
First Level 7 skill costs 1 additional skill point, ONLY one level 7 skill per character
There are no level 8 skills

No character can have a level higher than number of terms +3, so a 2 term character can have level 5 skill and a 4 term character could have 1 level 7 skill (which would take 2 whole terms of skill points to purchase leaving only 8 skill points left.)

With this system you could award experience points as a skill point of 1 per character year of activity. Maybe be real super duper nice and award a skill point early in the year for some great achievement.
They could only spend the skill point on either a skill they already have or purchase a new skill at level 0 or hold on the skill point for a future skill in need time of their life.


Dave Chase

 

[RojBlake]

I've just started a new Traveller game and would like to hear people's opinions on a skill issue.

I'm running a 'classic' style game where the players have a Free Trader and are trading/adventuring along the Spinward Main. Two of the characters have no Vacc Suit skill at all.

Do you think it reasonable to allow them to pick up level 0 in the skill with a two week training course? It sounds very sensible to me but I have some concerns about whether this will be opening the way for abuse of the system - suddenly acquiring level 0 in a number of skills with very little effort.

:?:

cjs65

I agree with you, two weeks sounds realistic. Some skills are obviously more difficult to learn than others (I'm talking real world here). To achieve a zero level profiency in wearing vacc suit shouldn't take as long as gaining a basic understanding in all fields of engineering for example. It's also a skill you could reasonably expect your characters to pick up in their line of work.