Quick Question - Class B Shipyard assembling starships

[Dracous]

Hi Guys, would like to run an idea past the group.

I have a highly populated industrial world that only has a class B starport. Nearby there is a world with a lower population but a class A starport.

I have been running with the idea that the Class B shipyard can build starships, because they build the jump drives at the nearby world, and them ship them in to be installed in the hulls produced at the class B shipyard.

This works for me because I have always thought that a jump drive could be repaired at a class B starport, so if they can be repaired, why not assembled.

Anyway, I want to see what others think. Am I subverting the Class B classification?

Dracous

 

[Hans Rancke]

I have a highly populated industrial world that only has a class B starport. Nearby there is a world with a lower population but a class A starport.

I have been running with the idea that the Class B shipyard can build starships, because they build the jump drives at the nearby world, and them ship them in to be installed in the hulls produced at the class B shipyard.

This works for me because I have always thought that a jump drive could be repaired at a class B starport, so if they can be repaired, why not assembled.

Anyway, I want to see what others think. Am I subverting the Class B classification?

Yes, but it deserves to be subverted. :wink:

Starport classifications tells of what services are available in the system. If your shipyard begins importing jump drives and installing them, the starport rating will change to A (Because the only difference between a Class A and a Class B rating is whether the vessels the local yards build are jump capable or not (Which is why I think the canonical rating system should be subverted (Basically, I think a Class B rating should denote major repairs and annual maintenance available, but no vessels built, nither ships nor boats.))).

As it is, there's presumbly a reason why the local yards don't import jump drives and install them, most likely that it's cheaper to get a starship built next door and delivered. After all, if it was cheaper to get the local yard to import a jump drive and install it in a locally built hull, customers would do that, wouldn't they?


Hans

 

[phavoc]

Could it be done? Yes. But it would not be the norm.

The classification of a starport (A-E) has nothing to do with the ancillary manufacturing facilities located nearby. A Class A starport can regularly build a jump-capable starship. A Class B starport could, but its not the norm (hence the B classification, and other intangibles).

Unless you have a reason for this to happen with your PC's, it's really a non-issue. You could also, if you wanted, have the bare-bones starship built at the Class A (with the jump drive), and then flown to the Class B to be fitted out (maybe its cheaper, maybe it's a religious thing, etc).

 

[Jame Rowe]

Could it be done? Yes. But it would not be the norm.

The classification of a starport (A-E) has nothing to do with the ancillary manufacturing facilities located nearby. A Class A starport can regularly build a jump-capable starship. A Class B starport could, but its not the norm (hence the B classification, and other intangibles).

Unless you have a reason for this to happen with your PC's, it's really a non-issue. You could also, if you wanted, have the bare-bones starship built at the Class A (with the jump drive), and then flown to the Class B to be fitted out (maybe its cheaper, maybe it's a religious thing, etc).

My rule for this would be that any B port could build jump drives for ships up to a certain tonnage, usually 400 to 1000 tons. This would represent part technology, part manufacturing ability and part yard space, though I imagine that population might play a role as it influences the other three.

Something for you to chew on for your port, good sirs.

 

[Hopeless]

Hi Guys, would like to run an idea past the group.

I have a highly populated industrial world that only has a class B starport. Nearby there is a world with a lower population but a class A starport.
I have been running with the idea that the Class B shipyard can build starships, because they build the jump drives at the nearby world, and them ship them in to be installed in the hulls produced at the class B shipyard.
This works for me because I have always thought that a jump drive could be repaired at a class B starport, so if they can be repaired, why not assembled.
Anyway, I want to see what others think. Am I subverting the Class B classification?
Dracous

What's the tech level of this system?
Actually whats the full UWP since that might provide some more insight.

A type B simply means it isn't a top flight starport, there's nothing that says you can't have a shipyard there and its really up to you what ships can be built there since you could easily rule that the parts are mostly made elsewhere and are shipped to your system for assembly.

Was there any particular ships you would like to see constructed?

What else is in this system since I recall the world generation system doesn't seem to understand there can be more than one world in a system and even an asteroid belt could house a suitable colony or even a shipyard itself since it would have a ready source of materials to mine and use!

 

[Hans Rancke]

So using a B-Yard to build Jump-ships with imported/recovered drives allows the use of otherwise "useless" yard capacity

There's no such thing as a B-yard (Unless you mean boatyard). There are starports on worlds with yards that builds spacecraft and there are starports on worlds with yards that builds starships. The first kind gets Class B starport ratings and the second kind gets Class A starport ratings. If a yard builds hulls and installs imported jump drives in them, it's a shipyard. If a starport has a Class B rating, the local yard does not install jump drives in the hulls it builds, domestic or imported. It could, but for some reason (probably economic), it doesn't.


Hans

 

[Captain Jonah]

A typical class A star port is rated on a number of things, ship building is just one.

Your Star port could be rated B overall because it lacks the passenger facilities to make the full A grade.

Or it can only handle maintenance on ships of under 5000Dtons due to local designs of the yards and bays or for security reasons it has a number of ship yards capable of making star ships but you need permission from all three of the balkanised powers on world to do so because they are afraid of upsetting the balance of power and strictly control ALL ship building.

Class A Star ports have vast ship building resources available. Class Bs have less facilities but lack only one thing. Jump drives/

There is no reason why Hickle and Binkle Shipbuilders could not rent a 1000Dton bay at the local yard and using their long years of experience plus a few imported bits and bobs take a star ship built at the local yard and fit it with a jump drive that is imported or even built on world. They would need to set up the required infrastruction but on a small scale (one or two ships at a time) that isn’t going to be so difficult.

The difference between a B built space ship and an A build starship is the jump drive, fuel tanks are no problem. The world could be high enough tech to make the jump drives but be otherwise lacking in the support structures needed to fit the drive and its jump grid.

If you want your Class B to build a small number of Star ships its more a case of explaining why it isn’t upgrading to an A overall while doing so.

 

[Hopeless]

Would you recommend picking up the Gurps Starports supplement especially in regards to such queries as this thread?

Oh (after looking at Amazon) and Gurps Far Trader?

 

[Hans Rancke]

A typical class A star port is rated on a number of things, ship building is just one.

True, but the only difference between a Class A rating and a Class B rating is whether the local yards build starships or only spaceships. A starport that builds starships is not a Class B; a starport that does not build starships is not a Class A. A starport that does not provide refined fuel is not a Class A, true, but neither is it a Class B, regardless of yard capacity.

(Incidentally, I notice that MGT has retconned Class C starports to having yards that builds small craft. That means that the maximum rating a starport without any yard at all can have is D. Even if it provides repairs, refined fuel, and annual maintenance).

Your Star port could be rated B overall because it lacks the passenger facilities to make the full A grade.

No it can't. A starport that lacks anything other than shipbuilding capacity to make it a Class A does not rate a Class B rating either.

Or it can only handle maintenance on ships of under 5000Dtons due to local designs of the yards and bays or for security reasons it has a number of ship yards capable of making star ships but you need permission from all three of the balkanised powers on world to do so because they are afraid of upsetting the balance of power and strictly control ALL ship building.

Nothing whatsoever has been said anywhere about volume of capacity having any influence on starport rating. A Class A starport on a world with a million inhabitants will almost certainly have a capacity vastly lower than a class B starport on a world with a billion.

There is no reason why Hickle and Binkle Shipbuilders could not rent a 1000Dton bay at the local yard and using their long years of experience plus a few imported bits and bobs take a star ship built at the local yard and fit it with a jump drive that is imported or even built on world. They would need to set up the required infrastruction but on a small scale (one or two ships at a time) that isn’t going to be so difficult.

There's no reason they can't. Presumably there's some reason why they don't. If they did so routinely, their world's starport would be rated A, not B. If it's rated B, they do not routinely do so.


Hans

 

[Hans Rancke]

TNE says different, multiple Class B (to make nitpickers happy) yards that DO work with imported driCes while slowly upgrading to A-Yards (To poke fun at nitpickers)

TNE deals with a different era. There aren't any Scouts around to assign starport classes. People of the New Era would not necessarily apply the same definitions. The government codes are different, for example.

Or, since the starport definitions remain unchanged in the main TNE book, you could argue that the TNE writers ignore their own rules for whatever reason seemed good to them.

Incidentally, I think there a very good argument for changing the official starport definitions. At the moment, one out of six classes (B) is wasted on the sole distinction that it doesn't make starships. My suggestion would be to make the distinction that only Class A starports built anything, star- OR spaceships. I also think starport ratings ought to include size considerations. But they don't right now.

So until and unless such a change is approved by TPTB (and I'm not going to hold my breath :wink, the moment you allow boatyards to import and install jump drives (without changing the starport rating), you eliminate the only reason for distinguishing between Class A and Class B starports.


Hans

 

[Captain Jonah]

Hans my last line fairly well covered all of your points.

If you want your Class B to build a small number of Star ships its more a case of explaining why it isn’t upgrading to an A overall while doing so.

Its the OPs YTU. If he wants a class B star port to be able to build Star ships as well as Space ships its up to him to explain, in his campaign, why it is otherwise a class B and not a class A.

The rules are guide lines not a straight jacket. :wink:

 

[phavoc]

Would you recommend picking up the Gurps Starports supplement especially in regards to such queries as this thread?

Oh (after looking at Amazon) and Gurps Far Trader?

I HIGHLY recommend picking up any of the GURPS Traveller books. They are very well written and each one contains a number of adventure nuggets that you can use. Not to mention you can adapt pretty much everything to fit into your Traveller game.

 

[far-trader]

Would you recommend picking up the Gurps Starports supplement especially in regards to such queries as this thread?

Oh (after looking at Amazon) and Gurps Far Trader?

I HIGHLY recommend picking up any of the GURPS Traveller books. They are very well written and each one contains a number of adventure nuggets that you can use. Not to mention you can adapt pretty much everything to fit into your Traveller game.

On the other side of the street I'd say it depends on your current Traveller collection. For myself I've picked up a few GURPS Traveller books on highly glowing recommendations and found them rehashing material I already had, generally with little fresh information, sometimes contradictory, and usually adding complexity (apparently for the sake for complexity itself * ) that I'm fine without. That includes such usually highly touted offerings as First In and Far Trader. I was very disappointed with both and resold them after a brief read.

* or simulationist if you find the context of complexity in this case too negatively laden

IF your current material is short, they (GURPS books) are generally well crafted beautiful books (beyond most other Traveller offerings) and the info will probably help. IF you've already got a decent collection of pre-GURPS Traveller covering the same material you might find them redundant.

 

[Hans Rancke]

Hans my last line fairly well covered all of your points.

Except the one about the very definition of a Class B starport including that it doesn't build starships.

The rules are guide lines not a straight jacket. :wink:

True insofar as any referee is free to ignore or change anything he doesn't like. False insofar that a rule can't simultaneously apply and not apply to something.


Hans

 

[rust]

True, but the only difference between a Class A rating and a Class B rating is whether the local yards build starships or only spaceships.

Well, no, at least not in the Mongoose Traveller system.

For example, according to MGT "Starports", a Class A starport
has to have a highport, which is not necessary for a Class B
starport (about 5 % of them have no highport). So a starport
which is able to construct starships, but which has no highport,
cannot be a Class A starport ...

 

[Hans Rancke]

True, but the only difference between a Class A rating and a Class B rating is whether the local yards build starships or only spaceships.

Well, no, at least not in the Mongoose Traveller system.

For example, according to MGT "Starports", a Class A starport has to have a highport, which is not necessary for a Class B starport (about 5 % of them have no highport). So a starport which is able to construct starships, but which has no highport, cannot be a Class A starport ...

The Core rulebook makes no mention of that.


Hans

 

[phavoc]

True, but the only difference between a Class A rating and a Class B rating is whether the local yards build starships or only spaceships.

Well, no, at least not in the Mongoose Traveller system.

For example, according to MGT "Starports", a Class A starport has to have a highport, which is not necessary for a Class B starport (about 5 % of them have no highport). So a starport which is able to construct starships, but which has no highport, cannot be a Class A starport ...

The Core rulebook makes no mention of that.


Hans

That's true... that's why he cited the rule from the Starport book. The core rulebook only has the basics included. Only so much you can cram in there.

 

[Hans Rancke]

That's true... that's why he cited the rule from the Starport book.

He didn't cite it, he referenced it. But as I don't have Starports (that is to say, I don't have MGT:Starports :wink: ), I don't know how if his reading of the text is one I would consider sound. Does it say that a Class A staport must have a highport? Or just that all known Class A starports happen to have a highport? And does it say which criterion takes precedence, the shipbuilding or the highport? After all, a lot of Class B and some Class C starports have highports.


Hans

 

[phavoc]

That's true... that's why he cited the rule from the Starport book.

He didn't cite it, he referenced it. But as I don't have Starports (that is to say, I don't have MGT:Starports :wink: ), I don't know how if his reading of the text is one I would consider sound. Does it say that a Class A staport must have a highport? Or just that all known Class A starports happen to have a highport? And does it say which criterion takes precedence, the shipbuilding or the highport? After all, a lot of Class B and some Class C starports have highports.


Hans

Okay, you got me there. You are correct, he referenced it.

The section in question from MGT Starports '
"In order to achieve the accolade of Class A status, a Starport must include both a Highport and Downport, provide unlimited refined fuel and house a full commercial shipyard. Inevitably, to
house and sustain such a weighty infrastructure, the port must be a colossal enterprise, orchestrating vast quantities of trade and travel. The economies of Starports this size can exceed those of entire planets." Starportspg 6.

Now that's a quote!

 

[Hans Rancke]

The section in question from MGT Starports '
"In order to achieve the accolade of Class A status, a Starport must include both a Highport and Downport, provide unlimited refined fuel and house a full commercial shipyard. Inevitably, to house and sustain such a weighty infrastructure, the port must be a colossal enterprise, orchestrating vast quantities of trade and travel. The economies of Starports this size can exceed those of entire planets." Starports pg 6.

Thank you. Looks like we have a canon conflict, then. What does Starports have to say about Class B starports?


Hans