Question on Sensor effectiveness

[Sageryne]

Hi all,

I recently released a TL10 ship. One of the readers over on Reddit was commenting that it would be at a severe disadvantage against higher tech vessels.

The TL10 ship had military grade sensors (High Guard, pg 21):



which are TL10.

I am assuming that means, they START to become available at TL 10.

Looking at the Initial Detection table (High Guard, pg 76):



This shows a BONUS for the higher tech ship. Using the example, a TL15 ship gets a DM +3 to detect a TL12 ship.

First Question:

However, does that go the other way? Would a TL12 ship get a DM -3 to detect a TL15 ship?

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That implies that the TL15 version of the Military Grade sensors is significantly better than a TL12 version of the same sensors (thus the DM +3 bonus).

Second Question:

If a TL12 ship had its TL12 Military Grade Sensors removed and replaced with TL15 Military Grade Sensors (at exactly the same displacement and cost + refit cost), would the TL12 ship now get the DM +3 bonus against another TL12 ship, because its sensors are now TL15?

Thanks

- Kerry

 

[swordtart]

Hi all,

I recently released a TL10 ship. One of the readers over on Reddit was commenting that it would be at a severe disadvantage against higher tech vessels.

The TL10 ship had military grade sensors (High Guard, pg 21):

View attachment 5648

which are TL10.

I am assuming that means, they START to become available at TL 10.

Looking at the Initial Detection table (High Guard, pg 76):

View attachment 5649

This shows a BONUS for the higher tech ship. Using the example, a TL15 ship gets a DM +3 to detect a TL12 ship.

First Question:

However, does that go the other way? Would a TL12 ship get a DM -3 to detect a TL15 ship?

I would say no. Negative modifiers are explicit if they apply. There are no negative modifiers.

--------------

That implies that the TL15 version of the Military Grade sensors is significantly better than a TL12 version of the same sensors (thus the DM +3 bonus).

Or it means that they are simply better at detecting the increased emissions of a lower TL ship. It cannot be the sensors are better as what degrades them when they meet the next ship that is only 1 TL lower.

Second Question:

If a TL12 ship had its TL12 Military Grade Sensors removed and replaced with TL15 Military Grade Sensors (at exactly the same displacement and cost + refit cost), would the TL12 ship now get the DM +3 bonus against another TL12 ship, because its sensors are now TL15?

If it has TL15 sensors it is no longer a TL12 ship. So yes you get +3. You might prefer to tie it to the TL of each ships sensor package rather than the whole ship (assuming the target ship is using it's own sensors to tune down its sensor signature). It depends what you think you are detecting. A low TL power plant might have higher emissions than a high TL one.

It is a bit gamey for simplicity. Consider the way smart rounds are able to home in on lower tech equipment. CRB rules a written mean they are better at homing in on jack armour than higher TL armour e.g. cloth. You would think that Reflec would be easier to find with a smart round.

Sometimes it is best not to think about it too much.

Thanks

- Kerry

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would say no. Negative modifiers are explicit if they apply. There are no negative modifiers.

Agreed, the negative DM is built into the stealth options.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Second Question:

If a TL12 ship had its TL12 Military Grade Sensors removed and replaced with TL15 Military Grade Sensors (at exactly the same displacement and cost + refit cost), would the TL12 ship now get the DM +3 bonus against another TL12 ship, because its sensors are now TL15?

By RAW, no. The rule says "ship" not "sensor". I would be open to house ruling it to yes.

A TL-12 ship refitted with a TL-15 sensor is certainly not a TL-15 ship.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Strictly by the rules if you equip your ship with a TL 12 probe drones your TL 9 ship jumps to TL 12 only to drop back to TL 9 when the probes are used up. Nutty.

 

[Sageryne]

Thanks for the quick replies. That makes more sense. All this makes me realise it is even more important to specifically identify the TL the ship was built at. Two ships with identical stats, one built at a TL10 shipyard and the other built at a TL15 shipyard will be different ships, from a rules point of view.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Strictly by the rules if you equip your ship with a TL 12 probe drones your TL 9 ship jumps to TL 12 only to drop back to TL 9 when the probes are used up. Nutty.

?

Probe drone are drones, supposed to operate independently, they don't modify the carrying ship.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

?

Probe drone are drones, supposed to operate independently, they don't modify the carrying ship.

They are specified in the ship construction and must have space allocated to them. That makes them "part" of the ship.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

They are specified in the ship construction and must have space allocated to them. That makes them "part" of the ship.

You can't use TL-12 components unless you are building at a TL-12+ shipyard, and then the ship is TL-12+ from the start.

HG'22, p8:
TECH LEVEL
Before you start building your ship, decide on the Tech Level of the shipyard that will construct it. This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add and also serves as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself.

 

[swordtart]

By RAW, no. The rule says "ship" not "sensor". I would be open to house ruling it to yes.

A TL-12 ship refitted with a TL-15 sensor is certainly not a TL-15 ship.

But by that logic I can simply state that my ship that has no individual component above TL12 (say) is actually TL15 as I had it built at a TL15 shipyard. There is no cost disadvantage in building below your maximum available tech level as far as I can see and there are considerable time savings in using a TL15 yard.

What specific component choice determines the TL of the ship? (it is not just sensors here several components rely on knowing what the TL of the "ship" is.

 

[MasterGwydion]

But by that logic I can simply state that my ship that has no individual component above TL12 (say) is actually TL15 as I had it built at a TL15 shipyard. There is no cost disadvantage in building below your maximum available tech level as far as I can see and there are considerable time savings in using a TL15 yard.

This is something @Terry Mixon and I mentioned to have added to one of the ship spreadsheets. A discount for building the tech at higher tech levels lowering the price of the component.

What specific component choice determines the TL of the ship? (it is not just sensors here several components rely on knowing what the TL of the "ship" is.

It is a choice from the minimum level required to build said she up to the maximum allowed by the shipyard's tech level. You choose the TL of the ship when you choose the hull.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But by that logic I can simply state that my ship that has no individual component above TL12 (say) is actually TL15 as I had it built at a TL15 shipyard.

You don't even have to state it, it is a TL-15 ship whether you like it or not.

And that might have downstream consequences, e.g. for repairs.

 

[Condottiere]

It's rather abstract.

Maybe, should start having prototype and budget bridges, as well.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

What specific component choice determines the TL of the ship? (it is not just sensors here several components rely on knowing what the TL of the "ship" is.

The Scout/Courier is such as ship. The only TL 12 component is the power plant.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Scout/Courier is such as ship. The only TL 12 component is the power plant.

The hull is TL-12 as well.

 

[swordtart]

The Scout/Courier is such as ship. The only TL 12 component is the power plant.

So is it still a TL12 ship if you strip the PP and replace it with a lower TL one?

The concept of a TL for the ship is fine when first building it, but as soon as you drive it off the lot it becomes rather meaningless.

 

[MasterGwydion]

So is it still a TL12 ship if you strip the PP and replace it with a lower TL one?

The concept of a TL for the ship is fine when first building it, but as soon as you drive it off the lot it becomes rather meaningless.

Yes, because you can't change the TL of the Hull. (Traveller rules don't allow for it) It will always be the same TL ship as when it was built.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

So is it still a TL12 ship if you strip the PP and replace it with a lower TL one?

The concept of a TL for the ship is fine when first building it, but as soon as you drive it off the lot it becomes rather meaningless.

That is the point I'm trying to make. The ship should be the TL it was when it was made. Blowing your TL 12 power plant and replacing it with a TL 8 still leaves your ship as TL 12. Just as adding TL 12 sensors you scavenged to your TL 9 ship leaves it TL 9 except for that one component. The upgraded (or downgraded) COMPONENT has its own TL from then on.

 

[Condottiere]

You can do refits after market service.

One issue would be compatibility, between differing manufacturers and technological levels.

 

[Sigtrygg]

What happens when you replace your TL12 power plant with a TL15 power plant? How about that old standby of the computer upgrade? Installing higher TL weapons on your hardpoints...