Query on tied skill rolls

[Rurik]

A project I've been working on, for instance, requires some negotiation between sorcerers and creatures conjured into existence. Using an opposed roll of an appropriate negotation skill against the creature's Persistence is a very good way of determining whether or not that creature obeys the command it's been given, ignores it, or runs amok.

Ooooh. Sounds very Moorcockian.

Do you have a favourite mug btw?

 

[Loz]

Ooooh. Sounds very Moorcockian.

Do you have a favourite mug btw?

Or it could be a set of generic demonism rules for 'RuneQuest: Demons'.

And I'm certain I've answered the mug question elsewhere...

 

[Loz]

Page has Guitar at 100%. Chord a Day at 30%. Jimmy rolls a 97 - a success, but not a crit.

Actually a 97 is a failure with a skill of 100.

Just sayin. :twisted:

Quite so. He was clearly using his 'Plectrum of the Gods' Legendary Ability which allows you to ignore automatic failures when making a standard opposed roll, if playing a Gibson doubleneck.

Hey... that's rather a cool Legendary Ability to include in the 'RuneQuest: Heavy Rock Heroes' sourcebook...

 

[Rurik]

Ooooh. Sounds very Moorcockian.

Do you have a favourite mug btw?

Or it could be a set of generic demonism rules for 'RuneQuest: Demons'.

Nah. Couldn't be. Who are your sources?

And I'm certain I've answered the mug question elsewhere...

Indeed you have. Guinness it is.

So what did Jimmy roll for the Deathwish II soundtrack and the Firm? (I tried to like the Firm, I really did, but in the end I was deceiving myself. Radiocative indeed. Never really listened to their second album).

 

[Quire]

So what did Jimmy roll for the Deathwish II soundtrack and the Firm? (I tried to like the Firm, I really did, but in the end I was deceiving myself. Radiocative indeed. Never really listened to their second album).

I don't think he made any rolls for them. They were just 'normal's.

- Q

 

[Quire]

Joking aside, all these references to 'art and craft' rolls do raise the spectre of how different they are from more 'immediate' skills.

It's easy to define the ranges and limits of an attack, a dodge, an athletics, etc roll...but not so simple when it comes to art and crafts (and lore?) because such things are subjective.

Hmm. More food for thought...

- Q

 

[Loz]

So what did Jimmy roll for the Deathwish II soundtrack and the Firm? (I tried to like the Firm, I really did, but in the end I was deceiving myself. Radiocative indeed. Never really listened to their second album).

I don't think he made any rolls for them. They were just 'normal's.

- Q

Yep, something no self-respecting hero would usually fail at. Or he wasn't using his Plectrum of the Gods that day. Or he was delberately trying to piss-off Michael 'Calm Down It's Only a Right-Wing Vigilante Film' Winner.

Or he rolled 96-00, because he was in still in mourning for Bonzo.

 

[Baron Meliadus]

Baron Meliadus wrote:

Heck, why is it so difficult to simply place the critical range at the top end of the skill percentage? I have a skill of 60%, thus if I roll a 55-60 then its a critical. It doesn't take much mental effort.

Mugen wrote:
The problem is that by doing this you add more complexity than was removed by "roll high wins" rule.

Really? I thought it modeled the Pendragon system. If both participants achieve the same success level (i.e. they both roll a normal success or a critical success) then the highest dice roll wins.

I proposed it for those people who were having elegance issues with the roll very low, or roll very high method currently used. All it does is shift the emphasis to always rolling high, making it a bit more 'logical'.

 

[Trifletraxor]

It works, but still don't like it. I would even prefer roll over or roll lowest below skill, as the D100 roll then at least is consistent.

The roll is consistent. The higher the number below the target the better.
You are rolling one set of dice and comparing them against the Critcal chance and the Success chance, and applying the same rule to both.

The roll is not consistent with a normal D100 roll. Normally when rolling a skill roll, low is always good. With this system, high is also good, unless you roll really low. It is consistent with your opposed rule roll, but not with a normal D100 roll.

SGL.

 

[weasel_fierce]

You can play it that a critical means you inflict some level of success on the winner.. make him pay for his victory, basically.

That way we have an additional variation

 

[Rurik]

Baron Meliadus wrote:

Heck, why is it so difficult to simply place the critical range at the top end of the skill percentage? I have a skill of 60%, thus if I roll a 55-60 then its a critical. It doesn't take much mental effort.

Mugen wrote:
The problem is that by doing this you add more complexity than was removed by "roll high wins" rule.

Really? I thought it modeled the Pendragon system. If both participants achieve the same success level (i.e. they both roll a normal success or a critical success) then the highest dice roll wins.

I proposed it for those people who were having elegance issues with the roll very low, or roll very high method currently used. All it does is shift the emphasis to always rolling high, making it a bit more 'logical'.

While it models the Pendragon method the math is a bit awkward. In Pendragon you don't have to calculate your critical range every time by subtracting (Crit Range -1) from Skill constantly.

Is it worth all the 'discussions' with players who think a 50 is a crit when their skill is 55?

Honestly what works for some people doesn't work for others. Some don't mind a bit of math, others want to avoid it. Some like always roll low, others don't care if roll high is better with crits trumping successes.

It obviously is NOT as elegant as Pendragon ('cause everybody* loves Pendragon resolution and uses it as is while people argue over, err, discuss I mean, MRQ opposed resolution).

Hell, I've been trying different houserules and tweaks since day one and still haven't decided on what method to use.

Oh yeah, and welcome to the board Baron. Be careful though, while things have been pretty easy going around here lately they occasionally turn nasty.

Patronising Italics probably won't endear you to many too quickly.

EIther way, another of my $.02. I really need to keep track of how much I am spending in throwing my opinion out there.

* Disclaimer: The 99% rule applies - I'm sure there are some people out there that don't like Pendragon resolution. I have a word for them, but since I'm playing nice...

 

[Halfbat]

Is it worth all the 'discussions' with players who think a 50 is a crit when their skill is 55?

Absolutely not. ::sighs_and_shrugs:: I run the multistage system as mentioned (Crit (01 to 10% of skill)-->Success-->Failure-->Fumble) with opposed rolls as well as combat and, whilst it certainly _isn't_ intuitive, it's one of those things my players, at least, have picked up really easily and accepted quite readily. It's one of the (few) issues we always struggled with in previous editions of RQ and I think the way it's being done:

a) works, at last,
b) is only just non-intuitive, and
c) is easy to pick up and run with.

Maybe I'm just a bit too pragmatic. It's only rarely that we have opposed criticials and have to check highest.*

EIther way, another of my $.02. I really need to keep track of how much I am spending in throwing my opinion out there.

$537.21**

Footnotes --------------------------------- ---------------
* My players still keep wanting to insist that "01" is the best critical, though, and we may have to make a special exception (Noooooooooooooo :roll: ), just to complicate things still further
** I don't think you fully explained your opinion on anti-Pendragon-ists above, Rurik, hence the 1 cent.:wink:

 

[Itto]

Joking aside, all these references to 'art and craft' rolls do raise the spectre of how different they are from more 'immediate' skills.

It's easy to define the ranges and limits of an attack, a dodge, an athletics, etc roll...but not so simple when it comes to art and crafts (and lore?) because such things are subjective.
- Q

The way crafting was handled in Bushido was pretty cool, were by things/objects had task values to create them. A task turn (skill roll) was varable depending on the task, from 1 turn to 1 year even. Each task turn the character would roll for the skill being used and accumulate task points based on the success of the roll.

So instead of "I'll try to make a sword I've got a 80% chance" (rolls dice) "yes success" or "no failed".

You get "I'll try to make a sword , task points 50. I've got 80% in weapon smithing" (rolls dice) "I rolled 70, made it with some added flair" or "I rolled 30, I've succeded, but still another 20 task points to go" or even " I rolled 90, failed"

Using this method instead of trying to create "The Sword of Slaying" with a -X% to one roll, you woud have a task value of 1000 and say a task turn of 1 day or whatever. On a fail you undo your good work by the fail amount and on a fumble lose all the work/task points accumulated.

 

[Loz]

Bushido is a system of complex, logical elegance. I love it.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

It works, but still don't like it. I would even prefer roll over or roll lowest below skill, as the D100 roll then at least is consistent.

The roll is consistent. The higher the number below the target the better.
You are rolling one set of dice and comparing them against the Critcal chance and the Success chance, and applying the same rule to both.

The roll is not consistent with a normal D100 roll.

Yes it is. WIth a normal D100 roll, a roll under the target number is successful. A roll under the Critical chance is a critical. That is still the case here. It is consistant with itself, and with the basic principles of both MRQ and BRP.

Normally when rolling a skill roll, low is always good.

Well, not exactly. Below the Skill %age is always good. If you have a chance of 5% then 06 is no good, even though it is low. If you have an 90% chance of succes then 89 is fine even though it is high.

The score on the dice only mean anything when compared with the skill you are rolling against :-
If (MRQ) you have a skill of 80% (Critical of 8%) and I have a skill of 40% (critical of 4%) and I roll 06 and you roll 07 then My roll is lower, but yours is better

With this system, high is also good, unless you roll really low. It is consistent with your opposed rule roll, but not with a normal D100 roll.
SGL.

A "normal d100 roll" under RQ2/3 rules does not distinguish between someone rolling 46 or rolling 86 against a skill of 90% - both are a "success" With this system it is possible to distinguish against them by applying two (independant) rules - rule 1 is "A critical success beats a normal success beats a failure beats a fumble" - This is consistent with all versions of RQ. Rule 2 is "High is good, providing it is less than or equal to your chance to succeed" - which is an extension to the old rule "A roll is successful if it is less than or equal to your chance to succeed" - this is compatible and consistant with previous rule sets (If you don't need to compare two rolls it is identical, and previous rule sets did not easily handle comparing two rolls..)

Remember that first of all you calculate your chance of success, and all modifications are made to this number, then you roll the dice. You might have an argument if, after rolling the dice you then added or subtracted numbers from the number you rolled, potentially moving you between "The best possible critical" and "the lowest possible success"

 

[Trifletraxor]

A "normal d100 roll" under RQ2/3 rules does not distinguish between someone rolling 46 or rolling 86 against a skill of 90% - both are a "success" With this system it is possible to distinguish against them by applying two (independant) rules - rule 1 is "A critical success beats a normal success beats a failure beats a fumble" - This is consistent with all versions of RQ. Rule 2 is "High is good, providing it is less than or equal to your chance to succeed" - which is an extension to the old rule "A roll is successful if it is less than or equal to your chance to succeed" - this is compatible and consistant with previous rule sets (If you don't need to compare two rolls it is identical, and previous rule sets did not easily handle comparing two rolls..)

Remember that first of all you calculate your chance of success, and all modifications are made to this number, then you roll the dice. You might have an argument if, after rolling the dice you then added or subtracted numbers from the number you rolled, potentially moving you between "The best possible critical" and "the lowest possible success"

Lalala!

But it's much easier to tell the dice to roll low, low! Than low but high or very high... The dices gets confused. My chitinous mental powers won't work as well influencing the dices with such a messy rule! :evil:

SGl.

 

[Quire]

My chitinous mental powers won't work as well influencing the dices with such a messy rule!

Ah, I see! So this is all really a telekinesis issue! Now I understand.

Well, start practising focusing on the highest possible crit roll, then. :twisted:

- Q

 

[Rurik]

Footnotes --------------------------------- ---------------
* My players still keep wanting to insist that "01" is the best critical, though, and we may have to make a special exception (Noooooooooooooo :roll: ), just to complicate things still further

That sums it up very well. I have had many a BRP player angle for some extra bonus out of rolling an 01 as it is such a good roll - a Crit Plus of sorts. An 05 crit being better than an 01 is a tough sell.

Really I bounce between using two methods for opposed rolls.

Makes roll by most requires figuring out how much you made your roll by (though often it is blatently obvious who won without even calculating it), which is a downside. But low is always better and it seamlessly scales past 100.

The other is the High roll wins Crit trumps Success, but I use subtract the amount of the highest skill over 100 from both skills rather than evil halving. Much easier to see who wins without math, but all that wonky baggage.

 

[Quire]

but all that wonky baggage.

You can talk, droopy draws!

- Q :lol:

 

[Baron Meliadus]

The other is the High roll wins Crit trumps Success, but I use subtract the amount of the highest skill over 100 from both skills rather than evil halving.

That's a rule tweak I'm in great favour of as well. It works well in play, and resolves challenges much faster and fairer than evil halving! (sorry couldn't resist the Italics :lol: ). Works well in challenges involving multiple protagonists too.