Project Phoenix Refits

[Sigtrygg]

The whole passenger dynamic of a hop drive culture would need to be revised.

Communication hubs become 10 parsecs distant from each other, but every world missed can be visited by a hop courier a week after the messages arrive at the hub.

Trade patterns would change and the likelihood of passengers on the different hub and spoke worlds would need to be re-assessed, which would require new passenger tables.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The whole passenger dynamic of a hop drive culture would need to be revised.

Communication hubs become 10 parsecs distant from each other, but every world missed can be visited by a hop courier a week after the messages arrive at the hub.

Trade patterns would change and the likelihood of passengers on the different hub and spoke worlds would need to be re-assessed, which would require new passenger tables.

Agreed.

On an unrelated note. I was having a bad hair day yesterday and apologize for being short with you. You contribute a lot to this forum and my reaction was a step too far.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No worries, I guessed something was up. I should have backed out of the thread rather than continuing to labour a pointless pedantic point - you were in the right to call me out on it.

Back to the topic at hand though, a hop culture will have different phases during its adoption.

When the xboat network was plonked on top of existing trade routes worlds fought to keep their xboat/trade links, hence the less that optimal network. The same thing was happening with the announced jump 6 xboat network, just look at the rise of incidents in the Spinward marches....

A hop comms network offers too many advantages not to optimise it, especially since the back fill couriers can also be using the much more fuel efficient hop drives. There will be worlds that have their trade patterns changes, there will be movement of people, so it give us an opportunity to make up the new passenger and freight tables for a hop culture...

then they invent hop 2...

 

[WHULorigan]

You end up with a number of worlds that become proverbial "ghost towns" or backwaters that were formerly booming or places to make a good credit because trade had to pass thru the system. Now there are only the run-down ruins of past prosperity and a small population of hangers-on.

 

[Terry Mixon]

No worries, I guessed something was up. I should have backed out of the thread rather than continuing to labour a pointless pedantic point - you were in the right to call me out on it.

Back to the topic at hand though, a hop culture will have different phases during its adoption.

When the xboat network was plonked on top of existing trade routes worlds fought to keep their xboat/trade links, hence the less that optimal network. The same thing was happening with the announced jump 6 xboat network, just look at the rise of incidents in the Spinward marches....

A hop comms network offers too many advantages not to optimise it, especially since the back fill couriers can also be using the much more fuel efficient hop drives. There will be worlds that have their trade patterns changes, there will be movement of people, so it give us an opportunity to make up the new passenger and freight tables for a hop culture...

then they invent hop 2...

Thank you for being understanding.

All true. Hop changes everything and introduces new paradigms as well as chaos and change. I’m in the minority in that I find that attractive, and I accept that. I still hope that Mongoose updates those charts for Hop even if it is only in Singularity.

 

[Terry Mixon]

You end up with a number of worlds that become proverbial "ghost towns" or backwaters that were formerly booming or places to make a good credit because trade had to pass thru the system. Now there are only the run-down ruins of past prosperity and a small population of hangers-on.

Yep. Sort of like Hard Times, but to a lesser extent. The sheer amount of opportunity for adventure during the upheaval is very attractive to me, though I know I am in the minority.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I join you in looking forward to running post Singularity adventures, I have all sorts of ideas of what comes next.

 

[swordtart]

I am still unsure why you want Mongoose to established commercial rates for H-1.

1) By your own argument it is not common. Until then there will be no standard rates, you are able to charge whatever the market will bear.

2) I am not convinced there is a trade market as in my opinion Traders don't plausibly benefit from H-1.
a) Trade Goods in Traveller don't become more valuable the further they are from the source of supply. Therefore for a fixed profit you are just increasing your costs by moving them further than necessary.
b) It doesn't matter for long term import and export arrangements whether the goods take 1 week or 10 weeks to get there. Very few goods are perishable and those that are do not command high enough prices to sink even the J-5 shipping cost let alone double that.
c) You might make a bit more profit exploiting a new market before the others get there but you have at most 5 trips before the Jump 1 guys can get there and the price drops. To make your profit in that time span you are also dumping everything on the market which will tank the price anyway.
d) There is likely to be another equivalent supplier or consumer system closer than 10 parsecs.

3) I am not sure there is a commercial passenger market.
a) Who is moving 10 parsecs regularly enough that you can set up a ship to cater for them? Most people don't travel at all, a few might travel 1 parsec for a holiday (but just getting to that nearest system will cost 2-10 months living costs).
b) The people who need to travel long distances at speed are normally the sort of people who are resourced enough to have their own Hop ship. I am thinking Nobles who want to attend at court more than once per lifetime, imperial agents travelling with urgency to systems with emergent troubles (though Agent chips might replace this physical need). Maybe a high ranking member of a megacorp might travel to a system that is having issues to supervise it personally. I can't see any of these going commercial.
c) Some dilettantes might just pong around the universe to indulge themselves (or to flee the consequences of such indulgence). Again they won't be travelling commercial.

I can absolutely see the intelligence agencies and the military using them and it will likely change how astro-politics works.
I can absolutely see small hop-ships with a luxury cabin begin part of important/rich peoples inventory.
I can even see enterprising pirates working out that being able to H-1 increases the number of destinations by a factor of 10 over J-1 which makes tracing them much harder. In addition they will be far more effectively outrunning their criminal record.
I can also see niche cases like the Steppenhauler, or rift-hoppers that will open up new areas to either expansion by-passing hostile powers, skipping over empty hexes or injecting military vessels far behind enemy lines.
I can see hop-converted free-traders being used covertly by intelligence agencies.

None of the above requires Mongoose to establish a commercial rate for Hop range passenger or freight fees. Doing so would only imply that Hop drives are common enough that market forces can operate to establish a "going rate".

I would favour some credible formulaic mechanism for establishing the costs of freight and passengers based on plausible criteria than even the table we have now. That would allow a referee to work up any number that suited your table (or knowledgeably tweak the formula to suit their own campaign conceits) without inadvertently implying any particular technology was "now a thing".

 

[Terry Mixon]

I am still unsure why you want Mongoose to established commercial rates for H-1.

1) By your own argument it is not common. Until then there will be no standard rates you will be able to charge what the market will bear.

2) I am not convinced there is a trade imperative as Traders don't plausibly benefit from H-1.
a) Trade Goods don't become more valuable the further they are from the supply. Therefore for a fixed profit you are just increasing your costs by moving them further than necessary.
b) It doesn't matter for long term import and export arrangements whether the goods take 1 week or 10 weeks to get there. Very few goods are perishable and those that are do not command high enough prices to sink even the KCr32 J-5 shipping cost
c) You might make a bit more profit exploiting a new market before the others get there but you at at most 5 trips before the Jump 1 guys can get there and the price drops. To make your profit in that time span you are also dumping everything on the market which will tank the price.
d) There is likely to be another equivalent supplier / consumer closer than 10 parsecs.

3) I am not sure there is a commercial passenger market.
a) Who is moving 10 parsecs regularly enough that you can set up a ship to cater for them? Most people don't travel at all, a few might travel 1 parsec for a holiday (but just getting to that nearest system will cost 2-10 months living costs).
b) The people who need to travel long distances at speed are normally the sort of people who are resourced enough to have their own Hop ship. I am thinking Nobles who want to attend at court more than once per lifetime, imperial agents travelling with dispatch to troubled systems (though Agent chips might replace this physical need). Maybe a high ranking member of a megacorp might travel to a system that is having issues to supervise it personally. I can't see any of these going commercial.
c) Some dilettantes might just pong around the universe to indulge themselves (or to flee the consequences of such indulgence). Again they won't be travelling commercial.

I can absolutely see the intelligent agencies and the military using them and it will likely change how astro-politics works.
I can absolutely see small hop-ships with a luxury cabin begin part of important/rich peoples inventory.
I can even see enterprising pirates working out that being able to H-1 increases the number of destinations by a factor of 10 over J-1 which makes tracing them much harder. In addition they will be far more effectively outrunning their criminal record.
I can also see niche cases like the Steppenhauler, or rift-hoppers that will open up new areas to either expansion by passing hostile powers or injecting military vessels far behind enemy lines.
I can see hop-converted free-traders being used covertly by intelligence agencies.

None of the above requires Mongoose to establish a commercial rate for Hop range passenger for freight fees. Doing so would only imply that Hop drives are common enough that market forces can operate to establish a going rate.

I would favour some credible formulaic mechanism for establishing the costs of freight and passengers based on plausible criteria than even the table we have now. That would allow a referee to work up any number that suited your table (or knowledgeably tweak the formula to suit their own campaign conceits) without inadvertently implying any particular technology was "now a thing".

Is it really that much of a pain to expand a chart by 4 lines? I’ve clearly stated why I would like to see it. You think differently, and that’s fine. My reasons haven’t changed.

 

[swordtart]

Is it really that much of a pain to expand a chart by 4 lines? I’ve clearly stated why I would like to see it. You think differently, and that’s fine. My reasons haven’t changed.

Because it is not just adding 4 lines. It is establishing canon. If it just added to a future Signularity product then maybe the effect is mitigated and the production cost be minimised. Would it be enough if someone stated it here in a forum or posted it in errata?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Because it is not just adding 4 lines. It is establishing canon.

They establish canon with putting the Imperium on the cusp of Hop 1 in Singularity. If they want to put the expanded chart there, I would be fine with that. It just needs to be somewhere, in my opinion.

 

[swordtart]

They establish canon with putting the Imperium on the cusp of Hop 1 in Singularity. If they want to put the expanded chart there, I would be fine with that. It just needs to be somewhere, in my opinion.

Yeah, we crossed in the ether there and are converging

 

[swordtart]

I am also considering the broader aspects of Hop drive and how much impact they should have on a a non-singularity campaign. As has been pointed out they were canon before Singularity in JTAS in an admittedly limited context with Steppenhaulers but they came with their own internal economic drivers (in the supplies they needed to send back). Carrying commercial passengers was never part of that economic model.

 

[Endie]

They establish canon with putting the Imperium on the cusp of Hop 1 in Singularity. If they want to put the expanded chart there, I would be fine with that. It just needs to be somewhere, in my opinion.

Matt was very clear that it is only applicable in the Singularity timeline, and that they won't be using it anywhere else.

And the Singularity timeline is so radically destructive of the assumptions of Charted Space as we know it that hop drives are arguably just a detail in that context. Society, governance, perception of reality and of self, understanding of consciousness and the nature of being are all, arguably, somewhat more important!

 

[Terry Mixon]

Matt was very clear that it is only applicable in the Singularity timeline, and that they won't be using it anywhere else.

And the Singularity timeline is so radically destructive of the assumptions of Charted Space as we know it that hop drives are arguably just a detail in that context. Society, governance, perception of reality and of self, understanding of consciousness and the nature of being are all, arguably, somewhat more important!

Agreed. I’d still like to have that spelled out, at least in Singularity.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Just because something is in JTAS it is not necessarily "setting canon"

GDW JTAS had a psionic special talent that could teleport over parsecs, that did not become canon just because someone wrote a JTAS article.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Just because something is in JTAS it is not necessarily "setting canon"

GDW JTAS had a psionic special talent that could teleport over parsecs, that did not become canon just because someone wrote a JTAS article.

I agree. It being in Singularity, though, is a different kettle of fish. They have a working prototype with a governor in it, so the implication that it might make a wider appearance in a few years is almost unavoidable. It won't be used in other adventures (unless they decide to do a post-singuarity adventure (doubtful, but one can hope), but it still exists and brings its implications with it.

 

[Condottiere]

I am still unsure why you want Mongoose to established commercial rates for H-1.

1) By your own argument it is not common. Until then there will be no standard rates, you are able to charge whatever the market will bear.

2) I am not convinced there is a trade market as in my opinion Traders don't plausibly benefit from H-1.
a) Trade Goods in Traveller don't become more valuable the further they are from the source of supply. Therefore for a fixed profit you are just increasing your costs by moving them further than necessary.
b) It doesn't matter for long term import and export arrangements whether the goods take 1 week or 10 weeks to get there. Very few goods are perishable and those that are do not command high enough prices to sink even the J-5 shipping cost let alone double that.
c) You might make a bit more profit exploiting a new market before the others get there but you have at most 5 trips before the Jump 1 guys can get there and the price drops. To make your profit in that time span you are also dumping everything on the market which will tank the price anyway.
d) There is likely to be another equivalent supplier or consumer system closer than 10 parsecs.

3) I am not sure there is a commercial passenger market.
a) Who is moving 10 parsecs regularly enough that you can set up a ship to cater for them? Most people don't travel at all, a few might travel 1 parsec for a holiday (but just getting to that nearest system will cost 2-10 months living costs).
b) The people who need to travel long distances at speed are normally the sort of people who are resourced enough to have their own Hop ship. I am thinking Nobles who want to attend at court more than once per lifetime, imperial agents travelling with urgency to systems with emergent troubles (though Agent chips might replace this physical need). Maybe a high ranking member of a megacorp might travel to a system that is having issues to supervise it personally. I can't see any of these going commercial.
c) Some dilettantes might just pong around the universe to indulge themselves (or to flee the consequences of such indulgence). Again they won't be travelling commercial.

I can absolutely see the intelligence agencies and the military using them and it will likely change how astro-politics works.
I can absolutely see small hop-ships with a luxury cabin begin part of important/rich peoples inventory.
I can even see enterprising pirates working out that being able to H-1 increases the number of destinations by a factor of 10 over J-1 which makes tracing them much harder. In addition they will be far more effectively outrunning their criminal record.
I can also see niche cases like the Steppenhauler, or rift-hoppers that will open up new areas to either expansion by-passing hostile powers, skipping over empty hexes or injecting military vessels far behind enemy lines.
I can see hop-converted free-traders being used covertly by intelligence agencies.

None of the above requires Mongoose to establish a commercial rate for Hop range passenger or freight fees. Doing so would only imply that Hop drives are common enough that market forces can operate to establish a "going rate".

I would favour some credible formulaic mechanism for establishing the costs of freight and passengers based on plausible criteria than even the table we have now. That would allow a referee to work up any number that suited your table (or knowledgeably tweak the formula to suit their own campaign conceits) without inadvertently implying any particular technology was "now a thing".

 

[swordtart]

Just because something is in JTAS it is not necessarily "setting canon"

GDW JTAS had a psionic special talent that could teleport over parsecs, that did not become canon just because someone wrote a JTAS article.

Hmm, it's difficult.

To me, canon is if it is in a formal publication (by Mongoose in this case) vs fandom.

Publications under the TAS banner that are produced and published by fans are not canon. Stuff published for MGT2 by Mongoose is canon. If we can pick and choose what is canon then I can unilaterally declare Singularity is not canon and we can stop talking about it

What is the difference between an article, setting or source book that may be written by a fan and similar written by a "professional" (who we would also hope is a fan) if they are published by Mongoose?

What is the definition of canon, given so many things have diverged from CT and every version between?

 

[Anstett]

What is the definition of canon, given so many things have diverged from CT and every version between?

How I view Canon for my game.
All the Mongoose 2e rulebooks.
All of the Mongoose 2e Adventures up to the start of 1105

At that point the four? five? different timeline diverge into different Canon for other people.
FFW? Ancients? Singularity? Core Expeditions? Drinax? Deep Night?
All potential Canon timelines for people to explore.

Each Canon timeline branches off and GMs will develop them further. I expect that Mongoose does not want to publish things in a Singularity Timeline but there are plenty of options for JTAS published titles and adventures out past 1200+