Problems with Vree

[jedimasterwiggy]

Hi all,
We have just got to the mid way point of our 3rd B5 campaign and our resident Vree player keeps coming out on top So I thought I'd have a check here to see how other people are dealing with the sacer people. Few specific questions.

Last game they were in saw.
1 Xaak
1 Xonn
3 Xill
3 Xirr
2 Xixx
1 Vaarl
4 Xaar
2 Wings of Tymm

against 1 Octurion, 3 demos, 3 primus, 2 Elurians
The vree took them apart with 2 xill, 2 xaar lost and almost all centauri destroyed.

1. Is this an example of an overpowered Vree fleet?
2. Anyone else find that their torpedos are over powered being triple dam, SAP and precise?
3. Same question regarding that all of their guns are at least DD and turreted so that you can go all allead and still fire at full effect?
4. Last campaign turn the player lost 7 battle points in a bloody game but earned back 28 RP from 7d6 RP from a bounty (had killed 7 ships) and two other results earned him 22RP. Anyone else feel that they earn too many RP?
Like to point out that I'm the Vree player in the campaign so I have no real problem with them but as my friends have been concerned for some time I thought I'd get some other groups opinions on Vree.
Thanks
Wiggy

 

[Greg Smith]

Vree weapons are nasty, but they don't have many AD, so interceptors are your friend.

 

[CZuschlag]

There are two hulls that I have on my radar of overpowered, and one that is marginal.

Xonn: A Tikrit with Hull 6, a turret arc, and SM access. Doesn't have MoD, but does have access to enhanced CAF because of crew quality. On y list of 20 most-broken ships.

Xaar: A monster at patrol, Triggy reminded me of this thing when I had first forgotten it when I was listing my bad 20. He's right, and I'm most certainly wrong -- this ship is also busted.

And, not sure if it's bad or not, but could be, in the wrong hands....

Independent Tzymm Flights: I know that the Xeel is broken beyond words, but the Tzymm? In this fleet, no -- there are only 8 fighters, total. Hordes of Tzymm from Xeels is gross and disgusting, and ban-worthy. But, not in the context of this fleet -- I think he'd be better off with Zorths.

In your case, I'd wager he's winning because, in ACTA as it currently goes, he who brought more ships wins. And, in this fight, you're outpurchased by a score of 8 to 15. You're going to get smoked due to initiative sinks if nothing else. Want to make his day miserable? Try a fleet based more like this at the 7-battle (or whatever that fleet was)

2 Liati
2 Balvarin (to provide Interceptors to ships -- Sentris as ship escorts against all that mess. There's also enough Hull-4 out there that really big fighters strikes can actually work against things like Xixx or Xirr -- but only late-game)
3 Sulust (squadron these, go Xonn- and Xaar- hunting)
2 Demos -- I only sanction this because he bought the 4 Xaar
2 Darkener
3 Vorchan
1 Maximus
2 Kutai
1 Corvan

You should do much better.

 

[jedimasterwiggy]

So Xaar are overpowered? Would go along with that. Would think that on a patrol boat if the weapons lost DD they would work much better balance wise as SAP still makes them a threat to all but can't score huge amounts of damage to battle+ ships.
Any ideas on whether Vree are best dealt with at range or wading in and blasting at the weaker hulls? Seem to do especially well against minbari as their beams and mini-beams can't take advantage of the weaker hulls that lots of the Vree ships have.

 

[eldiablito]

Vree loosing to Centauri?

Honestly, most time I face off against my local Centauri players I'm seeing hordes of Demos, a couple of Maximus, and some Sulust. When my opponents know that they will see my Vree, I will also see some Latai (or a Primus) and potentially a Balvarin. This combination can out range the best of the Vree, has access to more AD than the Vree, has access to the best counter to the Vree: Interceptors that can even be shared across multiple ships due to the Centauri rules. Accurate weapons to ignore the Xaar's best defense, decent fighters with fleet carrier to offset the Tzymm fighters.

In the last 2 games I played against the Centauri, I lost because I was rarely able to get within 15 inches; too much of their fleets can out-range my ships. Also, many of his ships' weapons will hit a Vree fleet on 3s, so almost everything will get through. His interceptors will reduce the amount of DD weapons that get in and with some extra fighter stands, he can increase that amount of interceptors significantly.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

:? What? :?

Use long range beams to kill the Ships one at a time. There are lots of low priority beam boats that can kill them fast... also missiles and E-mines hurt them alot. While some fleets will have problems, others should be good.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Oh yeah... and fighters.... Vree loose to those nasty assault fighters with 4 inch range weapons.

 

[CZuschlag]

Use only as many FP of Demos as he has in fleet points of Xonn and Xaars. The Demos is, of course, its own major source of broken.

 

[katadder]

centauri can rarely outrange your torpedos which are nasty long range SAP Precise TD killing weapons. i tend to try and fit in as many torpedo saucers as possible.
also dunno how you have problems getting within 15" against centauri as thats the centauri main killing range.

ion cannons = shredder with 2" more range = centauri advantage
matter cannon = anti-matter cannon but only AP not SAP = vree advantage
ion torps = anti matter torps but only DD = vree advantage
centauri have beams = centauri advantage
vree have heavy anti matter cannons = vree advantage
vree have lots of anti-fighter = vree advantage
vree have SM = vree advantage
centauri are faster = centauri advantage
vree have +1 to CQ checks = vree advantage
vree have turrets = advantage and disadvantage(for crits)

overall I would say vree are like the better more manouvrable but slower centauri. i would hate to face vree with my centauri as you get one turn of shooting then the APTE right past and use their turrets as they go by.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

Yeah... what about the maximus and its guardian arrays... tends to make those TD torps not so hot. Especially if the centauri load up on Elutarians, Havens and Maximus frigates. Then you have long range bombardment, Interceptors to keep the torps off and some cheap escorts with excellent fire power to keep the close in stuff busy.

 

[Davesaint]

Yeah... what about the maximus and its guardian arrays... tends to make those TD torps not so hot. Especially if the centauri load up on Elutarians, Havens and Maximus frigates. Then you have long range bombardment, Interceptors to keep the torps off and some cheap escorts with excellent fire power to keep the close in stuff busy.

Then you shoot the Maximus after they have allocated their interceptor dice to others.


Dave

 

[Banichi]

The last game my centauri had against the vocal vree player was a compleat bloodbath. It was 5pt battle, with 24 ships on the table. At the end of turn twelve there was only 5 ships left, all of them in bad shape. I only scraped a win by a narrow margin of victory points.

I have to agree with the people who say that the vree were born again hard in 2e. I feel absolutley no shame at all loading up on demos against them. This was the only victory that I have pulled off against the cattle bothers. My poor old EA third age have lost all the games we have had.

 

[locarno24]

Then you shoot the Maximus after they have allocated their interceptor dice to others.

They're annoyingly tough little things, to be fair.

With relatively few interceptor-depleting weapons, Guardian Arrays and Fighters on defensive duty annoy Vree no end, and as noted, if he wants to play the torpedo game then Demos-class warships should make short work of him. Especially since they pack an interceptor of their own for no readily apparent reason.

 

[Da Boss]

you are better off with one :wink:

IIRC the Demos uses interceptors against the Drazi ?

 

[Locutus9956]

Then you shoot the Maximus after they have allocated their interceptor dice to others.

They're annoyingly tough little things, to be fair.

With relatively few interceptor-depleting weapons, Guardian Arrays and Fighters on defensive duty annoy Vree no end, and as noted, if he wants to play the torpedo game then Demos-class warships should make short work of him. Especially since they pack an interceptor of their own for no readily apparent reason.

Just to pipe in briefly, the reason the Demos have an interceptor is not 'no apparent reason' but because we SEE them shooting down incoming missiles in show. I'm not saying the Demos isn't overpowered (it IS (though I don't think it's as bad as some people seem to)) but the interceptor DOES belong on it. It's just overgunned a tad.

Anyway thoughl; the Vree: Are NOT overpowered, they're a nasty fleet and no mistake and the Centauri WILL have trouble with them as they have generally poor firepower (if any) outside of their forward arc and Vree LOVE facing opponents like that where they can make good use of their SM abilities to avoid their poonents dangerous weapons, especially if their opponent takes bigger ships and is outnumbered.

It's remains my biggest peeve with ACTA as a whole that the initiative system does bassically tend to result in more ships = win.

As ever though I think some people are FAR too quick to label things broken, some of the vree ships are a bit overgunned perhaps but I wouldn't go as far as to call them outright broken and certainly the fleet as a whole isnt broken.

 

[KennyBoy]

Problems with the Vree... call the Dilgar! :twisted:

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I'm facing a game against General Triggy and his Vree at 5 battle with my (luckless) Centauri. Tips are welcome, even though the dastardly Nottingham-born rogue can read this...

 

[Da Boss]

Carriers - good damage soaks and gives you the Raziks to deal with his nasty fighters...........

Maximus and Liati are as ever good choices.

Demos is always (a bit too) good with the interceptor

Have the Balvarains act as a second wave to avoid the enemy flying through and having no fire as the carrier have reasonable guns against Vree.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I'd rather take Sentris to give me interceptor options as well...

 

[Da Boss]

I usually go half and half - you have fleet carrier - they don't
+1 dogfight and the recovery 8)

4 Raziks from each carrier each with +4 dogfight should give you fighter cover and then launch the rest as sentris to assist the Maximus /s with interceptor duty.

The raziks may even be getting AF from the Maximus depending on how the battle works.

And of course the Balvarian has an interceptor v usefulagainst Vree - probably have 2 or morer...........as I mentioned have them covering the rear of the front line.