Problems with Vree

[CZuschlag]

You are also assuming ---

--- No cover. With randomly rolled terrain, how often is that? One asteroid field is all you need, especially if it is Density 6 ... again, Telepathy!

--- The strike is a little underestimated .... the Dilgar have no reason not to get CAF on the half of the ships that they can roll for. That should be 23 hits. The Vree will CBD, but you're looking at about 31:35 and 3 crit effects before the battle starts. I still think the Vree are now good to go.

--- Balance doesn't have to be boring. It shouldn't be! But it can be done, but it's an awful lot of hard work. SFB has 13 basic races, has been around for 32 years, and is still tinkering with balance, but it's oh, so, close.....until you get into all the War Cruisers. Doh!

 

[eldiablito]

There does exist some Rock/Paper/Scissors stuff in this game. Vree does have some serious advantages against the Drakh (all those Hull 4s vs. SAP and TL weapons and the GEG does not protect them enough from all those DD weapons).

That said, there are some fleets that have PLENTY of options that brings the Vree down to playable levels. Please bear in mind, most of these comments are made with a tongue placed partly in cheek.

Centauri have longer range, weapons that are specifically designed to crit the Vree (SAP & Precise will demolish a fleet with only 1 weapon arc). Worse still, the Centauri have a defense that will severely mitigate those few Double Damage AD.

Narn Can this fleet have any MORE long range guns?!? Like the Centauri, they have weapons that are specifically designed to crit the Vree (SAP & Precise). This fleet has oodles of AP and TD Energy Mines that can lift multiple ships per volley. Yes, the clever Vree player has to stay out of the arc and spread themselves out to reduce the effect of those types of weapons, but in honesty, that severely hampers their relatively shorter range guns. Worse still, they have those blasted 2 for 1 patrol ships that seem to be well recognized as something too good for this game system.

Earth Fleets (all 3) Again with the longer range, SAP & Precise weapons?!? Again with the numerous Interceptors. Although the Vree have an amazing fighter, these Earth fleets have more access to even better specialists (better Dogfight via Fleet Carrier) and (depending on which era) better bombers. Finally, in the Early era, this fleet has access to those blasted 2 for 1 patrol ships.

Gaim Well, this fleet WAS worse before but today, they have some great advantages even now... Since I have not played against the newest fleet list, I would not know if these general statements apply today. So many fighters that they can overwhelm the Vree AF and fighter support and enough E-mines to strip the Vree of any fighters and can even pick up quite a few capital ships too. Finally, there are enough interceptors around to stop all but the most concentrated efforts of the Vree.

ISA With access to almost all of the above ships, this fleet can bring all of the previously stated advantages and still have access to one of the most controversially broken Raid level ships in the game: the White Star.

Well, as far as the Vree are concerned, those would be the worst races of the bunch (IMO). The Vree have some amazing options and I would confidently say that they are one of the best (if not the best) League of Non-Aligned Worlds races in the game. I would put them as a high, second tier fleet, but in the greater scheme of things, the best fleets in the game would easily be: Narn, Centauri, Earth Alliance, ISA. But again, this is just my experiences and what we have experienced in our small pond.

 

[CZuschlag]

I personally wouldn't call the Narn one of the best out there. Aside from a few ships, they have major issues at multiple priority levels.

My Fear-'em-fleets:

Gaim
Centauri
ISA
Vree

And Barely-This-Side-of-Fair?, That's Debatable:

Early EA
Dilgar
Drakh

You Get Bonus Points For Fielding This Rot:

Raiders
Abbai
Drazi

(Fair Disclosure: I field Dilgar and Drakh regularly.)

 

[katadder]

narn are fine apart from at battle level I think. the g'vrahn is over the top and keeps an otherwise godd warship on the bench but apart from battle as i said they are ok.

 

[Ripple]

Some of the Narn skirmish choices are pretty questionable... but as a fleet yeah they are fairly good.

I notice the Minbari are missing from both the above lists... good, bad?

Ripple

 

[Garibaldi]

Ok...I notice that in these comments most people are not addressing my other comments. Hull 4...OK, against beams...I agree it doesn't matter. However, against anything else it sure as hell does! Only 5 ships in the entire Vree fleet are hull 5 or 6... 5 out of 12. Look at Ea, or Narn or Centauri or almost any other race.

Now I will say that the Vree are a strong fleet (from distance). Yes SM is helpfull. And the antimatter torps were ALWAYS TD...even in 1se edition. The range was decreased and some...note SOME ships were given an 1AD increase. The Zaak, for example was not.

Also, no one has commented on my issue with the Vree Damage. I don't care how the mathmen figure things out. VREE SHIPS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DAMAGE! PERIOD! Like i said...a battle level ship (Zaak) 35 damage points! I defy anyone to show me a battle level ship with that few points! ANY SHIP! can't be done. PERIOD!

Everyone keep talking about the Xonn. I have played with it several times. The trick is to get in RANGE without getting killed! Not easy to do...unless you go to CBD all the time going in. I don't cause I think it is a crappy way to play all the time.

Folks commented about Vree telepathy. I can tell you it is nice! However, it is not a cure all for the Vree. The turreted weapons are nice, but with the low damage track, Vree are too vulnerable to a 4-6 or a 6-4 crit. I can't tell you the number of times that I had a WAR level ship knocked out of the fight in ONE HIT before being able to fire a shot!

Tolwyn, you said:

"A fleet primary of Xixx is devestating"

Yes I agree...for the 1st round...from then on...they are just fragging targets. Hull 4 targets. With too little damage. SM and Telepathy don't mean crap at that point.

Katadder, you said:

"the xonn is fine as a battle level ship, lose an arc its out of weapons. thats a serious weakness."

Dude, if you loose a arc...you have no fucking weapons at all!!! EVERYTHING is turreted! This means that if you loose a "random" fire arc or get a 4-6 or 6-4 crit...your ship is nothing but a big fucking target!

The antimatter cannons were always DD even in 1st edition. Torps were also TD in 1st edition also.

About the Vree "carrier"...it is a good ship 6AD is just fine I think. Just add "carrier 2" to it. AND if you want to lower the AD, add more damage...

AGAIN...Vree ships do not have enough DAMAGE.

I played a game vs EA yesterday. Call to arms 5 raid pts. I took 2 Zaak's and 2 Varrl's. My opponent took A warlock and 2 scouts (old one...name escapes me right now).

In his 1st round his Warlock was on "intensify defensive firepower". He targeted one Zaak. With only 1/2 his AD he took out 25 damage points! on a 35 point ship! A Battle level ship with only 35 damage points (AGAIN folks)!

I understand that his ship was a war level...OK.
I ended up winning and allowing him to withdraw.

But my points are listed above. And in my earlier posting. Range, Damage track, hulls and critical hit vulnerability. No the Vree don't suck! I really like the Vree! I do! But something has to be done. If someone could show me where lower damage and weapons vulnerability and low hulls equates to balance with the other races...please do. However, I will not be an easy sell!

There ya go.

 

[katadder]

Also, no one has commented on my issue with the Vree Damage. I don't care how the mathmen figure things out. VREE SHIPS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DAMAGE! PERIOD! Like i said...a battle level ship (Zaak) 35 damage points! I defy anyone to show me a battle level ship with that few points! ANY SHIP! can't be done. PERIOD!

ok 1st of all the battle level ship is a variant of a raid hull. its upgunned but its still a raid hull so has raid damage. also you want battle ships with 35 damage or less heres 3: shadow stalker (also based off a raid hull), Liati, WS gunship. so thats your idea blown straight out the water have i defied you enough?

you do realise that said raid hull has 35 damage at raid level which is actually really good so obviously is good on damage. in fact compared to alot of other races vree have really good damage tracks apart from that one ship.

on hull 4: ok against other weapons it can be a bit of a problem, but mostly you outrange those other weapons. most peoples long range comes from beams only. some races like EA also have missiles but then so do you.

couple of other points:
antimatter cannons were not DD and torps were not TD in 1e, for confirmation check out burgers ship viewer:
http://www.ibisfightclub.co.uk/armageddon/viewer.asp
that link should get you to the 1e ships.

plus you forgot the increase in AD. this combined with increased damage mods makes the vree alot better than 1e.

yes if you take crits that take out arcs you lose all your weapons, this applies to alot of ships, WSs and WS gunships, some of the most advanced amongst the younger races only have one arc, and its forward so not even as good as your turret.

also lets look at vree telepathy - you had SAP DD weapons and SAP TD P torps, whats the best order? concentrate firepower, which you can pull off easier than most races and now get rerolls on all those nasty weapons. if you do take crits you have a +1 towards your repairs too. all looks good to me.

I used vree against Narn, 5pt raid 4 Xixx, 3 Xill and never lost a ship, why cos I had range, extreme firepower and SM all on my side.
also note in your game even with that big hit you ended up winning. sounds like the vree are pretty good to me then, lots of firepower.

the vree really do not need a powerup. they are one of the better races out there, possibly the best in the LONAW. there only questionable ship is the carrier which has too many AD but that is being corrected in P&P.

think the vree are a problem, try using abbai with beams upto range 15 and then range 8 guns after that.

 

[Garibaldi]

OK... Shadow stalker...Regenerates damage...Vree nope.

WS Gunship...adaptive armor, regenerated damage...Vree nope.

Liati..Dodge on a battle level...Vree nope. only thing I could think of to illustrate on this one

Yes, I understand that a Zaak is an upgraded raid level. It would be logical to assume that when up grading said ship you would reinforce the hull (hence the 6 instead of 5) and add more armor to it. One was done, but not the other. Hence (in my opinion of course) part of the problem.

I agree with you that the Vree are better (for the most part) in 2nd edition. I don't really think that the Vree need a major "powerup". Remove the SL on the antimatter torps on the war level ship (make it like the EA Apollo, SL when crippled). Add some more damage to the track (for all the Vree ships) and I will be really happy.

My concern is that people (generally here folks) complain about some ship or race...then after a little bit, enough people make enough noise and then that ship (or race) gets changed. Usually for the worse. I just don't want Mongoose to make my Vree even more...vulnerable (for lack of a better word) cause a few people complain about a ship.

Does that make sense? I hope so. Thank you for the perspective. I get a little...focused sometimes!

Well...I feel better now. ALSO my mini's FINALLY arrived today. After 4 months....!!

 

[Garibaldi]

oops...also...I thought I was correct about 1st edition...my bad.

 

[eldiablito]

the vree really do not need a powerup. they are one of the better races out there, possibly the best in the LONAW. there only questionable ship is the carrier which has too many AD but that is being corrected in P&P.

think the vree are a problem, try using abbai with beams upto range 15 and then range 8 guns after that.

I almost agree with everything you wrote. The Vree do represent some of the best LoNAW ships out there. The Vree far surpass the pak'ma'ra, Abbai, and Drazi. Also, the Brakiri are VERY good, but their reliance on their front weapons can be trouble when facing off against the SM and turrets of the Vree. In short, IMO, a Vree fleet has some real problems that were all described earlier in this thread. Otherwise, these flaws can be filled with careful selection of other League ships (I'm looking at you Avioki variant!) and extra fighter support.

I used vree against Narn, 5pt raid 4 Xixx, 3 Xill and never lost a ship, why cos I had range, extreme firepower and SM all on my side.
also note in your game even with that big hit you ended up winning. sounds like the vree are pretty good to me then, lots of firepower.

I do wonder what your opponent brought in your game... A well designed Narn fleet is BRUTAL against a Vree fleet. First off, they usually will get the first shot with their higher initiative. For another, with all those 2 for 1 patrol ships (mostly the Sho'Kov), the Narn can out manuver the Vree. Likewise, with ships like the Dag'Kar, the Narn can out-range the Vree; Heck, that ship can lift a saucer each with their E-Mines and still have firepower left to crit another to the point of being useless. I will agree that the Battle level ships need improvement (especially the G'Quan), but once past that, the War level Narn ships are SCARY!

What happens when I play against my friends' Narn ships is that I loose the first bound (although not always due to my greater number of scouts). I then watch hopelessly as the Sho'Kov swarms just annoy me as they CBD and let me advance everything else. The Dag'Kar squadron will almost always hang back at the rear of the table edge and do All Stop until I get within 15 inches. Finally, the remaining ships with nasty boresights are ready to pounce on anything that gets close enough. The very first volley he does is to bombard my Xixx ships until they are dead and then I'm left with only 15 inch guns. Yes, once I'm close, I can really do a number, but that doesn't always happen. IOW, the Narn are, IMO, one of the best fleets in the game.

 

[Tolwyn]

IMO the 2 for 1 Patrol ships are one of the larger problems of the 2nd Edition. They are much too good for getting 2 ships per invested point.

But back to topic. With my Crusader Era EA I could acceptably tangle with the Vree, at least on Dogfight as I don't sacrifice my fighters in this layers of Anti Fighter weapons. The most nasty thing I know is a Xixx swarm, doing CAF next turn CBD with some escort ships. They are even better then squadroned.

One thing I like most about the Vree is the Xill. It's one of their best ships, even better then the Xorr. If I would have had enough money I would have bought a Vree fleet for myself as I think thgey are one of the strongest LONAW fleets out there.

 

[katadder]

OK... Shadow stalker...Regenerates damage...Vree nope.

WS Gunship...adaptive armor, regenerated damage...Vree nope.

Liati..Dodge on a battle level...Vree nope. only thing I could think of to illustrate on this one

aah but you didnt mention other defenses, you said i want somebody to show me a battle ship with 35 or less damage, so I did
the other defenses is why those 3 ships actually have 25 or less damage.

as to your points, they really dont need more damage, they are equal to or above the damage track of most other races at same PL apart from that one ship. and definately no to the war level ship getting its torps to not be slow loading, they have SAP TD P, the appollo cannot match that with any of its missiles, in fact its DD ones are shorter ranged and only AP.

I will say again, the vree do not need any sort of powering up in any way shape or form.

as to what the narns brought against my vree:
1 var'nic, 1 t'rann, 5 ka'tocs, 4 torpedo cutters.

 

[Foxmeister]

aah but you didnt mention other defenses, you said i want somebody to show me a battle ship with 35 or less damage, so I did
the other defenses is why those 3 ships actually have 25 or less damage.

Actually he said:

I defy anyone to show me a battle level ship with that few points! ANY SHIP! can't be done. PERIOD!

To me, to caveat after saying "ANY SHIP! can't be done. PERIOD!" is rather hoisting oneself by ones own petard on this one!

That being said, the other ships do have "active" defenses, so I think the Zaak could probably do with a little bump.

Regards,

Dave

 

[katadder]

the xaak has more firepower than the 3 ships mentioned, also has AF which 2 of the ships mentioned dont. its also got all its gunned turreted, 2 of the ships mentioned only have foreward arc. its SM, these ships whilst very manuovrable arnt SM. it has command, the ships mentioned dont.

overall a fight between that ship and one of the others could be interesteing and i dont think it needs any more. its a hammer with a glass jaw - extreme firepower, but fragile.

 

[Triggy]

the vree really do not need a powerup. they are one of the better races out there, possibly the best in the LONAW. there only questionable ship is the carrier which has too many AD but that is being corrected in P&P.

I agree with most of katadder's posts on this thread. The Xeel is the only ship in absolute need of toning down although I'd tone down the Xaar too slightly, either to 3AD or my preference is to convert the Antimatter Cannon to an Antimatter Shredder (10", Double Damage, Twin-Linked).

IMO the 2 for 1 Patrol ships are one of the larger problems of the 2nd Edition. They are much too good for getting 2 ships per invested point.

But back to topic. With my Crusader Era EA I could acceptably tangle with the Vree, at least on Dogfight as I don't sacrifice my fighters in this layers of Anti Fighter weapons. The most nasty thing I know is a Xixx swarm, doing CAF next turn CBD with some escort ships. They are even better then squadroned.

One thing I like most about the Vree is the Xill. It's one of their best ships, even better then the Xorr. If I would have had enough money I would have bought a Vree fleet for myself as I think thgey are one of the strongest LONAW fleets out there.

The 2-for-1 ships thing is also being addressed too if current plans go through (can anyone say "compulsary squadrons"? of course, add this to the extra VPs they give away.)

 

[katadder]

the vree really do not need a powerup. they are one of the better races out there, possibly the best in the LONAW. there only questionable ship is the carrier which has too many AD but that is being corrected in P&P.

I agree with most of katadder's posts on this thread. The Xeel is the only ship in absolute need of toning down although I'd tone down the Xaar too slightly, either to 3AD or my preference is to convert the Antimatter Cannon to an Antimatter Shredder (10", Double Damage, Twin-Linked).

true forgot about him. I would suggest changing it for a shredder. 15" range seems to much for a patrol ship.

 

[Ripple]

compulsory squadrons seems like a band-aid fix... I have a hard time fluffing that one off. Would I have to squadron them with each other, or can I mix and match to make wingmen for other ships? Just feels very mechanicy.

On the Vree,

These ships pack enormous firepower, and are able to apply the full firepower of any ship on any target in range. Virtually no shots should be wasted, unlike most any other races.

They ARE SM... much like the whitestar these ships often become immune to return fire by boresighted/front arc ships after the initial pass. They have to be smaller, more vulnerable to early strikes to balance their relative immunity to successive strikes.

Anyway, the Xeel is unbelievable tough... great skirmish ship and four of the best fighter/bombers in the game.

Ripple

 

[ATN082268]

<Snip most of post>

There does exist some Rock/Paper/Scissors stuff in this game.

I agree to a degree There are certainly some races which have better overall selection and quality of ships than others. I think the most of the trouble occurs, however, when someone tries to capitalize on an area against a race which is well suited to repel it, like going fighter heavy, not knowing you are going to face the Vree.

Sincerely,

Andrew

 

[CZuschlag]

Ripple,

I think the idea is based on the forced pairs+ mechanic that we tinkered with a while ago.

 

[Tolwyn]

The 2-for-1 ships thing is also being addressed too if current plans go through (can anyone say "compulsary squadrons"? of course, add this to the extra VPs they give away.)[/quote]

Just make them 1 ship per Patrol point again and give them some more AD. They have the nearly the same hitpoints as usual patrol ships with the same firepower. I see now use of "compulsary squadrons".