Prevalence of Magic in Hyboria
- Thread starter rgrove0172
- Start date
Willowhugger
Mongoose
Well, to be blunt, I think it's important to remember that the "Evil Magician" stuff of Howard is a bit of **** that fans prefer to have when Howard just made the VAST MAJORITY of them to be scum. But, the problem is that you might as well argue all NOBLES are evil by the same prevalence of good vs. evil.
There's Zelata the Witch who helps Conan in "Hour of the Dragon"
Hadrathus the Priest of Asura in the same novel
Pelias the Wizard in "The Scarlet Citadel"
Plus we have a few supernatural events of a benign nature like Belit coming back from the dead to protect Conan briefly and also the possible miracle of Conan saving the Devi's kingdom.
In my games, magic is mostly bad bad bad bad stuff. It will drive you mad and into elemental perversions. It's not BY NATURE that way, however. You can certainly have people make use of it without going mad or dying.
They're just rare though.
Also, I think magic is not that UNCOMMON in Hyborea. It's just that Wizards tend to be terrifying and respected. Stygia's entire ruling cast is more or less composed of magicians and there's apparently a heavy collection of them elsewhere.
They're vastly outnumbered by frauds in my game though. This is a major Non-Howard element I've introduced. I've got even individuals like Thoth-Amon doing parlor tricks and using science because Wizards can't really stand up in a fight and Magic is HARD. So most get by on the "Do you know who I am?" alone.
There's Zelata the Witch who helps Conan in "Hour of the Dragon"
Hadrathus the Priest of Asura in the same novel
Pelias the Wizard in "The Scarlet Citadel"
Plus we have a few supernatural events of a benign nature like Belit coming back from the dead to protect Conan briefly and also the possible miracle of Conan saving the Devi's kingdom.
In my games, magic is mostly bad bad bad bad stuff. It will drive you mad and into elemental perversions. It's not BY NATURE that way, however. You can certainly have people make use of it without going mad or dying.
They're just rare though.
Also, I think magic is not that UNCOMMON in Hyborea. It's just that Wizards tend to be terrifying and respected. Stygia's entire ruling cast is more or less composed of magicians and there's apparently a heavy collection of them elsewhere.
They're vastly outnumbered by frauds in my game though. This is a major Non-Howard element I've introduced. I've got even individuals like Thoth-Amon doing parlor tricks and using science because Wizards can't really stand up in a fight and Magic is HARD. So most get by on the "Do you know who I am?" alone.
Willowhugger
Mongoose
The King said:
But it's also important to remember that it's LIKE Call of Cthulhu, doesn't mean it IS Call of Cthulhu. Wizards and Cultists don't go insane in Conan the Barbarian.
The Master of Yimsha is entirely sane despite being a megalomaniac (he really IS that powerful) and Thoth Amon is 'evil' in the same way that other people are evil in the land. None of these people are insane, they fully comprehend the world around them. They are MOSTLY just cruel, unpleasant, and exploitive.
The Elephant in the Tower thereof is actually a SUBVERSION of Lovecraft. It's a pleasant and pathetic creature despite its ancientness. It also employs magic.
And stated, we have at least three examples of 'good' spellcasters. Four if you count Conan. The Barbarian himself dislikes magic but employs it twice in the series and puts his two spellcasters to work in Hour of the Dragon. Pelias, of course, is an example of someone that Howard hints was just another power mad God-King of course.
I suppose a idea is that magic is VILE for the most part is much more appropriate than "magic drives you insane."
LilithsThrall
Mongoose
Having just read the article on religion in campaigns, I had religion on my mind when I started reading this thread. So, I was surprised to find an American post that people in America are more free to play however they want.
While I've lived in the US my entire life, it is my impression that other countries with roots in western culture actually have more freedom of religion than the US does. DnD once had to remove the terms "demon" and "devil" from the game in order to pacify religious fanatics and I wonder how long a class like the Temptress would survive while Wizards of the Coast has chosen "pacify feminists" as the way to bring more women into the game.
In fact, considering the heavy tie-in between racial stereotypes and races in the game, I think the game would have a much harder time surviving if it were based in the US.
Having said all of that, my GM allows sorcerer PCs and we've had a magic item (though it was cursed - really nasty curse too, by the way). My first character in the game was a sorcerer, but I changed to another class because imho the mechanics of the sorcerer are really badly written.
While I've lived in the US my entire life, it is my impression that other countries with roots in western culture actually have more freedom of religion than the US does. DnD once had to remove the terms "demon" and "devil" from the game in order to pacify religious fanatics and I wonder how long a class like the Temptress would survive while Wizards of the Coast has chosen "pacify feminists" as the way to bring more women into the game.
In fact, considering the heavy tie-in between racial stereotypes and races in the game, I think the game would have a much harder time surviving if it were based in the US.
Having said all of that, my GM allows sorcerer PCs and we've had a magic item (though it was cursed - really nasty curse too, by the way). My first character in the game was a sorcerer, but I changed to another class because imho the mechanics of the sorcerer are really badly written.
LilithsThrall
Mongoose
Having just read the article on religion in campaigns, I had religion on my mind when I started reading this thread. So, I was surprised to find an American post that people in America are more free to play however they want.
While I've lived in the US my entire life, it is my impression that other countries with roots in western culture actually have more freedom of religion than the US does. DnD once had to remove the terms "demon" and "devil" from the game in order to pacify religious fanatics and I wonder how long a class like the Temptress would survive while Wizards of the Coast has chosen "pacify feminists" as the way to bring more women into the game.
In fact, considering the heavy tie-in between racial stereotypes and races in the game, I think the game would have a much harder time surviving if it were based in the US.
Having said all of that, my GM allows sorcerer PCs and we've had a magic item (though it was cursed - really nasty curse too, by the way). My first character in the game was a sorcerer, but I changed to another class because imho the mechanics of the sorcerer are really badly written.
While I've lived in the US my entire life, it is my impression that other countries with roots in western culture actually have more freedom of religion than the US does. DnD once had to remove the terms "demon" and "devil" from the game in order to pacify religious fanatics and I wonder how long a class like the Temptress would survive while Wizards of the Coast has chosen "pacify feminists" as the way to bring more women into the game.
In fact, considering the heavy tie-in between racial stereotypes and races in the game, I think the game would have a much harder time surviving if it were based in the US.
Having said all of that, my GM allows sorcerer PCs and we've had a magic item (though it was cursed - really nasty curse too, by the way). My first character in the game was a sorcerer, but I changed to another class because imho the mechanics of the sorcerer are really badly written.
Willowhugger
Mongoose
The King said:
From a certain point of view. In 1920s New England, a man worshiping eldrich horrors in exchange for gold and power is insane. In Hyborea, it's just sensible.
Evil_Trevor
Mongoose
Willowhugger said:
Really ?
Now I would say that there are places where magicans are more common (Stygia, Khitai, Zamora) than 'average' and I would also suggest there are places where they are rare to nearly non-existent (cimmeria for example) this would explain a lot of Conan.
As for your assertion that Wizards cannot stand up in a fight, one spell cast by a second level wizard in my on-line game nearly cost the lives of an entire party of fifth level fighters. It is right that magic is hard, in many other systems it is too easy, the magic as presented is part of the whole feel of the world and the Conan system is good for capturing that feel so I doubt I would want to run any game where magic was completely absent.
As for the numbers of wizards, well since doing magic is a risky business and it gets harder the more powerful you become it seems reasonable that there must be more low level wizards than high level ones. For those without the strength or will to live by the sword, power through sorcery is the next option.....
rabindranath72
Mongoose
Agreed.The King said:
If one goes by CoC-like rules, insanity does not imply becoming a blubbering idiot. Take all the examples of NPCs in the various CoC modules. Most of them are nearly insane, the most powerful ARE insane (0 sanity).
What can be argued upon is the game effects that insanity has on Hyborian age characters, since they do not live in a modern world, so they may get "used" to horror. But magic, IMO, should always be something unnatural which exerts a toll on the human mind, whether magic is used to good (Hadrathus) or bad (Toth-amon) ends.
rabindranath72 said:
Well, I think in CoC sanity 0 does not necessarily imply that the character is completely insane in the sense of being psychotic or mentally ill. Rather it means that he has moved beyond humanity and sees the world in a different manner, having become more akin to the Great Old Ones in this sense, with no connection left for the human species. Simply the mechanics of Cthulhu Mythos decreasing maximum Sanity imply this. In a way this is what has always troubled me about CoC Sanity system - they kind of mix mental illness with change of viewpoint to something completely alien. Perhaps they should have instead a Sanity score and a Humanity score.
In Conan, Corruption is this Humanity score - road towards damnation, to something inhuman and terrible that continues to reside in a human shell but is emotionally and mentally something completely different. I think the current mechanics where a succesful save against Corruption requires a new save against insanity are very neat! It kind of shows that the choice of a sorcerer who learns unspeakable things man was not meant to know is to whether accept this change of viewpoint - or refuse it and as a result risk losing his mind.
So, I'd say that the powerful wizards of the Hyborian Age either become profoundly changed towards something alien in human form through Corruption, which is a different thing than insanity as their sanity can not be measured by human means any more - or they refuse it and may have their minds shatter as a result. Thoth-Amon and other "evil" wizards are usually the first kind who have embraced the forbidden lore to the core and become something else than human. I'd imagine many mid-level sorcerers to become simply insane according to Corruption rules - they don't want to voluntarily accept the change and are instead driven to madness. In my opinion, Hadrathus as statted in Scrolls of Skelos is a bit too "clean" for a sorcerer - he should have at least one or two points of Corruption or some minor mental problem simply for the sake of being a high level sorcerer with great knowledge of Acheron and other wicked things.
However, all things above are IMHO. Everyone is free to portray their version of the Hyborian Age as they please. I tend to mix in Lovecraftian elements and make things dark and gritty.
