Points or PL system to pick fleets?

[Locutus9956]

Well I know I always say this but: There already IS a perfecly good listing on ship rarity out there for B5 and its approved as Canon by JMS himself.

And that list is called B5Wars. Yes I know 'blah,blah,blah ACTA is a different game, blah, blah, blah' So tell me, then how often did we see the Sullust in B5, or the Tigara? Or the Saggitarius? Or oh, 95% of every ship in ACTA that are all taken straight from B5Wars and not the show?

Sorry to come out firing folks but if you cannot accept that ACTA is more based on B5Wars than B5 itself I can only assume you've never seen any of the B5Wars books....

 

[Lord David the Denied]

If the B5W books provide the needed info, use them. ACtA uses the ships AoG invented for the most part, so it's not like they're robbing ideas off people.

 

[cordas]

I like the PL system of choosing fleets, I just feel that maybe it could do with going on a diet. It seems to have gotten more and more complicated as new books have come along.

Yes I know that there are arguements that such and such ship should be a different level, but do you really think moving to a points system will change that? It simply change to such and such a ship is too expensive for its points cost, or its ridiculously cheap for what it gives you.

Contary to my wish to make PL more simple I would love to see the introduction of rare ships, make some ships or variants rare limiting the numbers available to fleets (both in one off and campaign fleet lists, maybe with different values for each).

This is something that could be done to limit those ubber powerfull ships such as the Tertius or new Trolligan. Make it so that you can't field a rare from a higher level than the game you are playing, and you can only field 1 rare at the level you are playing and a second 2 levels lower or something, allowing you in a battle to field 1 battle rare and 1 skirmish rare. Or simply allow players to say no rares, taking out those arguements that you have a cheese fleet, such as 2 shadow omegas or 3 tertiuses.

 

[Burger]

If there is a rarity system put in place to help balance the fleets, then it should be based solely on which ships are overpowered/broken in ACTA. Not based on B5Wars stats, or background fluff.

If the rarity system is not for fleet balance, then use whatever source you like, but I don't really see the point of doing it unless it is for fleet balance.

 

[Silvereye]

I was just pulling ideas out of my arse, dude. The classifications and points allowances could be revised until the stars go dim. The suggestion is what counts.

And I was just trying to help you out by making it a more useful suggestion.

 

[Locutus9956]

Well as an example in B5Wars the Tertius WAS a rare varient. You could indeed only field one per three primuses and so on and so forth for most nasty varients for other races (of course in B5Wars the Tertius also cost a bit more than an unloaded Primus (fighter cost extra in B5wars but were gernarally worth it)

 

[cordas]

If there is a rarity system put in place to help balance the fleets, then it should be based solely on which ships are overpowered/broken in ACTA. Not based on B5Wars stats, or background fluff.

If the rarity system is not for fleet balance, then use whatever source you like, but I don't really see the point of doing it unless it is for fleet balance.

My idea is based solely on fleet balance, I would say if you want to bring in B5Wars stuff or other fluff, then its simple..... Make those ships a bit special so they need to be rare to maintain fleet balance 8) 8) 8)

 

[Johnny D]

I like the priority system as it is, I just think that there should be limits even if just in tournaments to stop unrealistic fleets being chosen.
By imposing a few limits on ships that were unlikely to ever be regularly fielded in such numbers ie 10 saggis or 5 solarhawks I think you're adding realism to the game can get around perceived differences in quality and stop ridiculously unlikely fleets being fielded.
It's very little extra admin to know that you can only field a certain number of some ships and helps compensate for some of the inherent weaknesses of the Priority system without making it much more complicated.
It seems like a simple elegant solution to a problem that bothers many players. While you might not like dictating to people that they can't field 10 sagitarius or Ka'tans I'd be interested to see if the majority of the players would prefer such fleets to be prohibited (at least in normal games, in friendlies people could always ignore it anyway).

 

[katadder]

Well as an example in B5Wars the Tertius WAS a rare varient. You could indeed only field one per three primuses and so on and so forth for most nasty varients for other races (of course in B5Wars the Tertius also cost a bit more than an unloaded Primus (fighter cost extra in B5wars but were gernarally worth it)

lol didnt you ever only use about 2-4 ships total in B5 wars, so having a rarity like that isnt a problem. ooh i can only use one tertius in my 2 ship fleet, aah well 50% of my fleet can be rare.

 

[Silvereye]

If there is a rarity system put in place to help balance the fleets, then it should be based solely on which ships are overpowered/broken in ACTA. Not based on B5Wars stats, or background fluff.

If the rarity system is not for fleet balance, then use whatever source you like, but I don't really see the point of doing it unless it is for fleet balance.

Agreed. But as B5 Wars balanced its ships to some degree with Rarity if your balancing ships in ACTA then using the B5 Wars rarity levels would be pointless as they are very different games.

What it would hopefully allow is for is the slow creep of the variants into regular service. Lets face it a Tertius should be more powerful then a Primus. It is not much of a 70 year upgrade if it is the same. Limited rarity levels can do a good job of helping balance these issues.

The culling of surpluss variants in 2e should hopefully go some way to resolving a big chunk of these blance issues.

 

[cordas]

Agreed. But as B5 Wars balanced its ships to some degree with Rarity if your balancing ships in ACTA then using the B5 Wars rarity levels would be pointless as they are very different games.

What it would hopefully allow is for is the slow creep of the variants into regular service. Lets face it a Tertius should be more powerful then a Primus. It is not much of a 70 year upgrade if it is the same. Limited rarity levels can do a good job of helping balance these issues.

The culling of surpluss variants in 2e should hopefully go some way to resolving a big chunk of these blance issues.

I hope they don't cull to many of the variants as they add a fair bit of extra spice to the game, just when some races are hotter than others and some ships hit very heavily for their cost it can become unfair. Yes upgrades should be better than what they upgraded, otherwise whats the point.....

No one is saying use the B5Wars rare exactly as they did, just to look at it for inspiration. If you look through this forum you will see plenty of discussion about which ships are maybe a bit too hard and rather than down powering them just make them rare. You could even make a special section in the rare thatgives very specific feilding requirements for the ship, such as the Shadow Omega, restricting its year, and what other ships can be feilding along side it.

As long as a little caviate is put inot the rare rule that says players can agree to modify this with their oppontents consent.. Such as if you are fighting the Earth Civil war as a campaign you can make your own rules as to when the ShOm appears and in what numbers.

 

[katadder]

theres not a lot of variants going, a couple of centauri ones as they really have no need, they fill the same role as a non variant. think theres a minbari one leaving us too, but really cant think of many more that are going the way of the dodo

 

[captainsmirk]

If there is a rarity system put in place to help balance the fleets, then it should be based solely on which ships are overpowered/broken in ACTA. Not based on B5Wars stats, or background fluff.

If the rarity system is not for fleet balance, then use whatever source you like, but I don't really see the point of doing it unless it is for fleet balance.

Am I the only one who thinks that ship's stats should actually match their background fluff to the extent that fleet balance and background fluff work together?
I mean you can just change the fluff to match how you have balanced the ships...
The number of ships whose fluff bares little relation to the capabilities is annoying. The game is supposed to based on Babylon 5, B5 was plot/story driven. Yet sometimes this game feels more like a space combat game that just uses B5 ships and names, not a Babylon 5 space combat game.

Bear in mind that I am no great fan of competitive play, but there are times when I feel that to much emphasis is placed on the competitive play over the more story-based feel that was at the shows heart.

Deliberately placing play-balace ahead of fluff, rather than trying to incorporate them together would be another example of this. As I said above since most of the fluff isn't derived directly from the they is nothing to stop it being modified to match the way the ships are constructed. At the moment most of the fluff seems to be copied directly from B5wars and then the ship stats are produced completely seperately.

Just my 2 pence (well probably 2 pounds actually...)


Nick

 

[cordas]

Am I the only one who thinks that ship's stats should actually match their background fluff to the extent that fleet balance and background fluff work together?
I mean you can just change the fluff to match how you have balanced the ships...

I agree whole heartedly with you, the stats and fluff should bare some relation to each other, its really annoying to see a ship described as one thing but be something completely different when you see the stats.

That said I can see there being howls of anger from some quaters if the fluff is changed, as everything ever published is cannon according to some (just my impression from talking to mates and reading some posts so please don't flame me over it, I ain't trolling).

Personally I would aim for a middle ground tweaking both stats and fluff a little to make them meet somewhere in the middle.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Agree with the fluff comment 100%

 

[emperorpenguin]

Am I the only one who thinks that ship's stats should actually match their background fluff to the extent that fleet balance and background fluff work together?

No, I feel exactly the same way and I've been pressing hard for this in 2nd ed

The number of ships whose fluff bares little relation to the capabilities is annoying. The game is supposed to based on Babylon 5, B5 was plot/story driven. Yet sometimes this game feels more like a space combat game that just uses B5 ships and names, not a Babylon 5 space combat game

Agreed. I've seen a number of people advocating ignoring sections of the show in favour of balance.

 

[H]

given how easily G'Quans seem to explode, they should have hull 2 and 4 damage points

 

[Pauly_D]

Well as an example in B5Wars the Tertius WAS a rare varient. You could indeed only field one per three primuses and so on and so forth for most nasty varients for other races (of course in B5Wars the Tertius also cost a bit more than an unloaded Primus (fighter cost extra in B5wars but were gernarally worth it)

which book was the Tertius in from B5 Wars?
i only remember the Secundus, Emperors Transport, Primus Maximus and the Accelerator Primus varients

 

[captainsmirk]

given how easily G'Quans seem to explode, they should have hull 2 and 4 damage points

I don't agree with this view actually, as far as the show goes we see the following:

1. A G'Quan one-on-one (ignoring fighters) is actually (just...) superior to a Primus.

2. That G'Quans die very easily when shot by Shadows. But almost eveything dies very quickly when shot by Shadows because Shadows are born again hard...

3. A G'Quan is pounded to destruction from several directions by three Vorchans. This ship had probably suffered some damage previously in the battle.

and from the films:

4. A Vorchan blows a G'Quan to pieces in a couple of shots (This is basically an effects boo-boo).

Conclusion: The G'Quan is good, but don't try and take on Vorchans or Shadows.

Compare to the Primus:

1. A Primus one-on-one (ignoring fighters) is actually (just...) inferior to a G'Quan.

2. A Primus will spontaneously explode when fired on a few times by B5's defense grid and a couple of Starfuries.

3. Works well when shooting large rocks into undefended planets.

Conclusion: The Primus is basically only useful for transporting dignitaries and shooting large rocks into undefended planets.


Nick

*EDIT
As a side note a number of G'Quans are actually destroyed by collapsing jump points (admittedly mostly caused by Shadow JP Disruptors) a fate that I don't remember happening to anyone else.

 

[captainsmirk]

Okay, having just done my "analysis" of the G'Quan and Primus in the series I felt like wasting some more time looking at some of the other ships.

This time round the Omega and Sharlin.

First the Sharlin:

1. Has weapons which are capable of slicing through any Earth ship like a hot knife through butter, reducing them to confetti in seconds.

2. Has a stealth system that whilst active makes them more or less invulnerable to attack except by Shadows or nuclear blasts (unless they turn it off).

3. Is apparently 500 Minbari-Metres long (which are somewhere in the region of three times as long as an Earth-metre...).

4. Has a snazzy 360° holographic viewscreen in the command centre (It serves no useful purpose, but is good for impressing members of technologically inferior species).

Conclusion: The Sharlin is the perfect warship if you can't get your hands on something built by a First One. Advice to Earthforce commanders: Marry a Minbari and stand behind her at all times...

And the Omega:

1. Has weapons apparently capable of firing beams or pulses as the situation (or plot) requires.

2. Carries a god-awful lot of Starfuries/T-Bolts, which really shouldn't all be able to fit inside.

3. Glides through the ether in exactly the same way that a man encased in a block of concrete doesn't through water.

4. Can turn on the spot surprisingly quickly when faced with an enraged Minbari and several Sharlins.

5. Has a bit which spins so that the crew stick to the floor without having to be held in place with uncomfortable straps.

6. Has absolutely no form of shock absorbtion whatsoever.

Conclusion: Looks like a brick, moves like a brick, hits like a brick thrown by an olympic gold-medalist in hammer throwing. And at least you don't end up with the muscle power of an underdeveloped chicken after a six month tour.