Locutus9956
Mongoose
Pauly_D said:
Pretty sure it was in ships of the fleet, will have to check later.
Points or PL system to pick fleets?
- Thread starter Valen is my name
- Start date
Pretty sure it was in ships of the fleet, will have to check later.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
captainsmirk said:
35 by my count
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Well as far as I know theres nothing new in ships of the fleet, its merely a compilation of other stuff. Again I remember the Tertius being there but I'll check when I get home (may be my memory playing tricks on me). If it is all I can think is that you must be missing a book (either that or Ships of the fleet included a couple of fan ships from websites/magasine articles or something)
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Da Boss said:Always wondered how six Nials fitted inside a White Star.............
Short answer they don't.
Long answer the series indicates that there are only two Nials in a White Star...
Now for some more series ship analysis, this time the EA orbital defense satellite.
1. Have very big particle cannon, which are apparently capable of scorching 40% of the earth's surface.
2. Also have a possibly unlimited of missiles capable of destroying some of the most advanced ships in use amongst the younger races.
3. When in earth orbit: "They're everywhere!!!!".
Conclusions: Who needs mass drivers when our own orbital defense grid works just as well and doesn't need a supply of large rocks? And secondly why the hell doesn't Earthforce use these missiles on anything else?
Valen is my name
Mongoose
aren't they the same missiles used on ships like the apollo then?
And your right babylon 4 is a station not a very big and slow ship, but it doesnt mean that theyre shouldnt be one. i did a poll a while back but i cant remember how the voting went
And your right babylon 4 is a station not a very big and slow ship, but it doesnt mean that theyre shouldnt be one. i did a poll a while back but i cant remember how the voting went
Greg Smith
Mongoose
captainsmirk said:Da Boss said:Always wondered how six Nials fitted inside a White Star.............
Short answer they don't.
Depending on which size you believe a White Star is either 268m long (about the same length as the WWII USS Enterprise carrier which carried 90 planes) or 475m long, longer than the Knock Nevis. Granted a White Star is pretty skinny compared to naval vessels, but surely big enough to hold a flight of 6.
Valen is my name
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:captainsmirk said:Da Boss said:Always wondered how six Nials fitted inside a White Star.............
Short answer they don't.
Depending on which size you believe a White Star is either 268m long (about the same length as the WWII USS Enterprise carrier which carried 90 planes) or 475m long, longer than the Knock Nevis. Granted a White Star is pretty skinny compared to naval vessels, but surely big enough to hold a flight of 6.
but how big are nials? theyd probably be a lot bigger than WW2 planes, and dont forget the engines and other equipment will be a lot bigger, there really isnt much space on a white star i wouldnt of thought.
captainsmirk
Mongoose
Valen is my name said:
Note that I was talking about the show...
The Apollo never appeared in the show, about the EA ship we see firing missiles is an Olympus in ACtA the movie, and we don't see what effect that had.
But whether or not the WS is physically big enough to carry 6 Nials actually matters very little, it in fact only has a landing bay big enough for two, as clearly shown on screen...
Nick
I prefer a points-based system. Like many people have alluded to, you can tailor the cost of each ship to match it's abilities. Keep in mind that I only read the first page of this thread, so if I step on some toes, I apologize... but I can't very well read 4 pages of replies. Sorry.
As for the topic and my feelings toward the PL v points debate, let's look at some ships for an example. The Vorchan sucks at Skirmish... but if you make it Patrol, it'll be too good. There exists no happy medium. The Prefect is too good to be in the Raid slot. If you make it Battle level, it will never show up. Again, there exists no happy medium.
msspange mentioned that each ship in each priority should not be taken at face value. That the power of each ship and it's position in the PL system is not based on how well the ship can take on other ships - a good example being the Altarian and Eutarian. Each ship has a different purpose and exists in the same slot. The same could be accomplished if you made them the same "price" in a points system.
I try and I try to find a benefit to the PL system, but each time I find myself saying that the points system can address that benefit as well... AND avoid any problems with ships that are "between PLs".
People complain that players will powergame if you switch to a points system, the same way people do in BFG and WH40K. Well, look around. People do it with the PL system as well. Who needs a Vorchan when you can take a Maximus? Who needs a Centaurian when you can take a Prefect? Who needs a Primus when you can take a Teretius?
People aren't avoiding the Teretius and the Prefect because they think they suck... it's cause they know they are cheez and they shouldn't apear more than once in each fleet. People aren't avoiding the Vorchan because they want to take a Maximus. They are avoiding the Vorchan because there are better choices out there.
The point is, is that the PL system has entirely too many cons that are not weighed out by it's pros. A points system can be adjusted on a ship-by-ship basis... while a PL system requires WAY too many factors to be considered (i.e. power of each other ship in the PL, each ship outside the PL, each ship in the PL of other races... etc.).
I just can't see a benefit to the PL system.
As for the topic and my feelings toward the PL v points debate, let's look at some ships for an example. The Vorchan sucks at Skirmish... but if you make it Patrol, it'll be too good. There exists no happy medium. The Prefect is too good to be in the Raid slot. If you make it Battle level, it will never show up. Again, there exists no happy medium.
msspange mentioned that each ship in each priority should not be taken at face value. That the power of each ship and it's position in the PL system is not based on how well the ship can take on other ships - a good example being the Altarian and Eutarian. Each ship has a different purpose and exists in the same slot. The same could be accomplished if you made them the same "price" in a points system.
I try and I try to find a benefit to the PL system, but each time I find myself saying that the points system can address that benefit as well... AND avoid any problems with ships that are "between PLs".
People complain that players will powergame if you switch to a points system, the same way people do in BFG and WH40K. Well, look around. People do it with the PL system as well. Who needs a Vorchan when you can take a Maximus? Who needs a Centaurian when you can take a Prefect? Who needs a Primus when you can take a Teretius?
People aren't avoiding the Teretius and the Prefect because they think they suck... it's cause they know they are cheez and they shouldn't apear more than once in each fleet. People aren't avoiding the Vorchan because they want to take a Maximus. They are avoiding the Vorchan because there are better choices out there.
The point is, is that the PL system has entirely too many cons that are not weighed out by it's pros. A points system can be adjusted on a ship-by-ship basis... while a PL system requires WAY too many factors to be considered (i.e. power of each other ship in the PL, each ship outside the PL, each ship in the PL of other races... etc.).
I just can't see a benefit to the PL system.
Valen is my name
Mongoose
captainsmirk said:
sorry i forgot that we don't actually see the apollo.
yes i know that you can make things smaller, but the nials can't be smaller than a WW2 fighter because the nial has to have enough room for a pilot, bigger engines than a WW2 fighter had, more equipment etc, they simply couldnt have been smaller (and to back me up if i put my revell starfury model next to a spitfire or hurricane of the same scale it dwarfs it) so the same goes for a nial, in the show nials were not drastically smaller than starfuries were they?
And as for the ship, i know that things get smaller, but i cant believe that a white star is smaller than a WW2 aircraft carrier. If the vorlons and minbari could make things so small, how come their own ships are so big, especially the vorlon ones? Theres a limit, and when you think whats in a white star, even the minbari cant cram all that into something smaller than a 1940's carrier. Plus if my memory is right, in the episode in series 4 where ISN do a hatchet job on the ISA and Sheridan, we see a damaged white star, and it puts it in context when you see it next to babylon 5. If B5 is 5 miles long, and you see the picture of the white star next to it, the white star has to be more than 256 metres long.
Valen is my name said:
Again? Why? How you know Minbari's couldn't invent smaller engines for Nials? We are talking about race that has been flying in space for over 1000 years...
Look how we managed to compress computers in what? 40 years? Quite an improvement...
Starfury happens to be human technology based :roll:. Humans have "bit" less experience as space faring race as Minbaris...
BTW. I wouldn't trust shows CGI as scale measurements...Based on that distances between ships in fight would be laughable compared to what they would have to be...
tneva82 said:
They still need to compress life support systems, compter hardware, weapon points (and there are 3 of them), propulsion systems, space for the pilot, directional drive systems, 3-D navigation software, fuel tanks and distribution systems, energy generation and distribution systems...
There is a lot that goes into making a fighter. Imagine compressing the Space Shuttle. At some point you can only get so small.
Valen is my name said:
Do you have ANY idea how big an aircraft carrier is? They have a crew of 5,000 people plus accomodations for all those people. They have any where from 100 fighters plus fuel plus ordnance plus other attachable hardware (fuel pods, sensor pods).
A White Star is about the size of a small/medium cargo ship by comparison... and that sounds about right.
Personally, I don't think the White Star should have a flight of fighters.
Absolutely. Sailing on the ocean is different than sailing in space. I would bet that the majority of the space that the White Star DOES have (could be nearly 70%) is most likely taken up by 3 key systems - the jump engine, normal propulsion and power generation. Weapons, targetting computers, communication and navigation hardware along with crew accomodations will most likely take up the rest.
tneva82 said:
Absolutely. Sailing on the ocean is different than sailing in space. I would bet that the majority of the space that the White Star DOES have (could be nearly 70%) is most likely taken up by 3 key systems - the jump engine, normal propulsion and power generation. Weapons, targetting computers, communication and navigation hardware along with crew accomodations will most likely take up the rest.
