Playtest - Whitestar

[Foxmeister]

but this is becoming a thread where people unburden their frustrations at losing to the ISA blaming our one good ship

It isn't about that at all! It's about making the game better! Virtually everyone agrees that the WS is at the top of the curve for its priority level. Is it broken? Not necessarily but it's very close.

We all understand the design decisions about making it F arc - that's not news to anyone! What is being questioned is whether or not they were the right design decisions. I fundamentally believe that if the WS was boresighted from day 1, we would not be having this discussion because boresight and initiative would be different in order to cater for the White Star, and in doing so fixing many of the problems with swarms and initiative sinks.

I have an ISA fleet - thus far it's never been beaten, so I can argue that it's not in my best interest to nerf the White Star. However, I want to see this game grow and improve, and reining in the wilder ships is the best place to start. The White Star doesn't stick out as much as say the G'Vrahn, but War level ships probably aren't as tough as they should be anyway and the G'Vrahn sticks out because it probably is where a War level ship should be compared to its peers.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Scipio]

The WS is a good ship. I'm not certain that it is as flat out broken though as many here seem to think.

I don't mind the suggested nerf that it is getting, it will still be a ok ship to take.

However regarding the boresighting.
With the nerf it is getting isn't that enough? Does it really need to be nerfed even more? I'm not so sure that I'm convinced that it really needed the first nerf in the first place.
It is also going to be affected by the Swarm nerf when playing at War and up, right?

The WS is one of the most manueverble ships seen on the show so Matthews reasons for giving it a F instead of B is a valid one so I can't really see the "reality argument" as a reason to do it on its own.

What is left is if testing shows that with the Swarm nerf and the AD/CBD removal is not enough?

 

[stepan.razin]

No White Star would ever have a problem achieving a boresight, it's among the most agile ships in the game.

It's agility does indeed allow it get boresights. Unless it is outsinked by an enemy with more ships.

Which is the fundamental problem with boresights.

And its difficult to out sink the ISA. The white star alone makes up the majority of the ISA force and is raid, if you are up against a swarm fleet, the Blue Stars are an excellent option to augment your init sinking

Not quite sure that a raid level ship quite qualifies as an effective sink. Maybe against Mimbari, shadows, and possibly crusade. But a BS is a must IMHO. A typical Narn, Centauri, Vree, Drakh, Dilgar, EA (early) PsiCorp will easily outmaneuver boresight WS.

And Vorlons dont need to sink, they are too enlightened to bother, just point and kill.

I would take a boresighted WS over the gimp that the WS is gonna be if the current rules for them are accepted.

 

[l33tpenguin]

The WS is a good ship. I'm not certain that it is as flat out broken though as many here seem to think.

I don't mind the suggested nerf that it is getting, it will still be a ok ship to take.

However regarding the boresighting.
With the nerf it is getting isn't that enough? Does it really need to be nerfed even more? I'm not so sure that I'm convinced that it really needed the first nerf in the first place.
It is also going to be affected by the Swarm nerf when playing at War and up, right?

The WS is one of the most manueverble ships seen on the show so Matthews reasons for giving it a F instead of B is a valid one so I can't really see the "reality argument" as a reason to do it on its own.

What is left is if testing shows that with the Swarm nerf and the AD/CBD removal is not enough?

I don't think it is so much people saying it should get nerfed more, just that it should get nerfed different. I can understand. If it were to get bore sighted, I don't think the current nerf should stay. I personally like the idea of boresight better, mainly to see a change in White star tactics. Instead of flittering around at the edge of an enemies fire arcs, the white star would have to do straffing runs, similar to how it is seen used in the show.

 

[wpngjstr]

My biggest objection to the playtest change is that the Whitestar gets a double penalty from CBD (only one weapon AND half dice) that other ships do not.
I understand the "layered" defences complaint, but surely you can't be trying to tell me that no other ship can do the same thing (eg the Teshlan fast cruiser, substituting Stealth for dodge) I'll grant it has Adaptive armor, but it also has a fairly low hull or crew (about half the average for it's level, by some strange coincidence) so that largely balances out. Self repair is really not a large factor from my observations; they either get hit so hard that it never gets a chance to repair, or they run out of crew.

As I said earlier I feel that Boresight would be the more appropriate Nerf (it's a Nerf, not a choice) for the main gun, requiring greater care in the employment of Whitestars, and giving slightly better predictability for (thinking) enemies

 

[l33tpenguin]

My biggest objection to the playtest change is that the Whitestar gets a double penalty from CBD (only one weapon AND half dice) that other ships do not.

I'm in the 'CBD should halve all AD' camp anyway It would balance affect everyone equally then

 

[stepan.razin]

My biggest objection to the playtest change is that the Whitestar gets a double penalty from CBD (only one weapon AND half dice) that other ships do not.

I'm in the 'CBD should halve all AD' camp anyway It would balance affect everyone equally then

Not to mention speed up the game.

 

[Methos5000]

The other thing to consider with the Whitestar is more and more races are getting weapons/ships/SA that can ignore dodge. Since a big part of a WS defense is dodge that is cutting its effective damage/crew in half against many of the races now.

 

[Hindsight]

I agree that the White Star is a good option. There are a lot of ships that are great at their priority level. The Dag'Kar springs to mind. Why do you think I take it? heh

What I don't want to see, is the White Star go from the top of the curve, to the bottom of the curve, and truly that is what I see happening when I lose this attack dice. Beam weapons are a gamble, and sure, you can get some nice beams stacked up to a nice pile of dice, but more times than not when I roll my two dice, I roll a two and a three anyway.

Giving me only one dice means half the failure, half the fun!

If TTT allows boresighted ships to take a special action, tracking a target that has or has not moved, and allows it to act as if it has a front arc, then the White Star essentially has that already. Every White Star would just TTT every time, and fail the CQ half the time. Representing that White Stars failed to turn properly... which just doesn't seem to fit.

I'd sooner support losing four inches on the range of my beam, before I lose an attack dice. 18" lets me sit comfortably away, and shoot at you, even going all stop after moving a partial move, and still getting to dodge. 14" would represent the White Star getting knee deep into the fight, showing how it is seen in the show. I don't recall seeing the White Star sit back with gunships, taking pot shots.

I don't know, I don't have a solution, as my grasp of every other raid level choice is just not what it probably will be a few months from now. What I do know, is that in the six games I have used the new White Stars in, I've had two victories, and always been disappointed with the White Stars performance vs. what it can do now.

 

[mollari_uk]

I agree with the CBD change. It would nerf the WS similar to it's current ruling and would prevent it's cheesy use with other ships (i.e slow loading weapons). It would also give a needed boost to higher priority ships as they wouldn't loose all of their weapons. Also single weapon ships would still be able to use it.

For me the WS problems occur from the fact that they sit on CBD with little penalty. This is obviously agreed by the game designers/play testers because of the current rule change. Changing CBD instead of introducing this WS only rule would work much better for me.

 

[Ripple]

The old whitestar was 1 AD and did very well (even against hull 6)... we see in the show lots of not terribly effective fire... some that must be from the low die count...=p

The correction to the whitestar could be the current thing, or the boresight with TTT available thing (think version 1.0 was better... this one you want to Come About instead almost all the time), but it needs the tad bit of tone down right now.

The issue is, like all the glass hammer ships, its often not fun on the table... either it whacks you and you don't feel you had much of a chance or you whack it, and he doesn't feel he had much of a chance. Always need nudging as tactics change and new stuff comes out to keep the feel right in some ways or someone complains.

Ripple

 

[Lord David the Denied]

What I don't want to see, is the White Star go from the top of the curve, to the bottom of the curve, and truly that is what I see happening when I lose this attack dice. Beam weapons are a gamble, and sure, you can get some nice beams stacked up to a nice pile of dice, but more times than not when I roll my two dice, I roll a two and a three anyway.

I'm sick of hearing about this power curve. Why should one race get a ship worth one raid point, while another gets a ship worth 1.2 or even 1.5 raid points for the same cost? Or a different races gets a lame-duck ships worth only 0.75 raid points?

The PL systems needs to be properly rebalanced, or binned in favour of a real points system. That'd end all this nonsense of power curves and broken ships. A ship too good? Raise its cost.

End ex.

 

[Tion]

Experimented a bit last night with the proposed whitestar stat line and rules.

Something that turned up interesting possibilities was this...

Boresight the WS, but reflect is extreme agility by making its TTT cover port and starboard arcs.

Possibly combine with the "power flow" rule.

I think this'd be true to the portrayal of the ship (in both bore and getting the shots off) and not require a massive reworking of the game to accommodate one ship.

Troy

 

[Hindsight]

What I don't want to see, is the White Star go from the top of the curve, to the bottom of the curve, and truly that is what I see happening when I lose this attack dice. Beam weapons are a gamble, and sure, you can get some nice beams stacked up to a nice pile of dice, but more times than not when I roll my two dice, I roll a two and a three anyway.

I'm sick of hearing about this power curve. Why should one race get a ship worth one raid point, while another gets a ship worth 1.2 or even 1.5 raid points for the same cost? Or a different races gets a lame-duck ships worth only 0.75 raid points?

The PL systems needs to be properly rebalanced, or binned in favour of a real points system. That'd end all this nonsense of power curves and broken ships. A ship too good? Raise its cost.

End ex.

1.5 of what? .75 of what? What is the perfect "balanced" raid level ship? There isn't one, and any that you give me will just be a matter of opinion. Without assigning a value to every ship stat, and truly getting down to Charlie Epps level math, there can't be true balance like you describe.

That said, without it, the game will never be 1 for 1.

Nerf the White Star, and it'll go from a ship every ISA enjoys using, to a fleet I miss playing, as I build my new unkillable Narns with 4+ CBD and enough harmless weapons to not notice the difference in AD.

 

[Triggy]

You weren't here in the days when the White Star had 1AD on its beam and was considered balanced my most.

As for the maths - it's been done and although very complicated, it does work pretty well as a general guide (I even produced a list of every ship post-Armageddon and there were very few ships people disagreed with their positions - you'll be able to find the lists if you search for posts by humbaba and myself).

 

[Hindsight]

Can you revisit that math, after the P&P testing is complete?

My only concern about giving everything a value, is in how that relates to what is most commonly used. Do I pay for my Flight Computer? Of course I do. Have I ever used it in a game? Not yet. Can I sell it to you for one more attack dice?

There will always be things included in that math, that are there for either story based reasons, logical features of a craft that just makes sense, but that you don't necessarily rely on in game play, but you're still paying for it when the math is done. Scout for example is going to be worth more vs. a Minbari fleet than the Vree.

Damn Vree *shakes fist at ElDiablito, Killer of White Stars*

 

[skavendan]

You never used flight computer? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Methos5000]

You weren't here in the days when the White Star had 1AD on its beam and was considered balanced my most.

Since then more races have gained advantages against dodge though too.

I bet the Narn must be feeling pretty bummed out that almost half the galaxy stole emine tech from them.

 

[skavendan]

You weren't here in the days when the White Star had 1AD on its beam and was considered balanced my most.

Since then more races have gained advantages against dodge though too.

I bet the Narn must be feeling pretty bummed out that almost half the galaxy stole emine tech from them.

If you mean E mines thats 1 weapon and not everyone gets it. It is annoying how everyone else has e-mines equal to or better than narns.

 

[Hindsight]

You never used flight computer? I find that hard to believe.

Check my join date I just haven't personally had it come up yet. It was an illustrative example, none the less.