Playtest - Whitestar

The WS has been nerfed a little too much, IMHO. I dont think that pre-nerfed version of WS has too much firepower that it needs to be scaled back. Some may say it too flexible and can resist too much damage, but if that was the case, making it boresight OR saying it cannot use CBD special action would probably be enough.

The reason why its such a ubiquitous ship in ISA is that simply there is not much alternative at skirmish or raid levels.
 
The White Star (before the change) has above average survivability and a tiny bit above average guns compared to a typical Raid ship. What it also has on top is enormous speed and manoeuvrability and either a Nial flight or Scout. It's simply one of the best Raid ships out there (although I accept the reason it's so popular is because people like it from the show).

Once you learn how to leverage its manoeuvrability fully, you can eliminate the opposition with much greater efficiency as you should rarely be being shot at. Yes this sometimes means you'll sacrifice shots but this is well worth it to regenerate, repair crits and evade fire. A White Star should never be in the middle of a fight, it should always be at the edges, yet in most games I see they smash straight into the middle of enemy fleets and I get the feeling this is why several people undervalue it.
 
I would have favored boresighting over a AD nerf;
1) Bore sight requires more careful maneuvering of the fleet, while restricting available concentrated firepower
2) Boresight make the use of TTT a significant alternative to CBD, making CBD Whitestars less common (and why should the whitestar take twice the penalties as any other ship on CBD? It's not as if it's the only ship that can dodge)
3) Oh look! it fits the show!
 
I'll grant you it's a strong argument but it's quite a devisive one - as far as I can see, there aren't too many neutrals but there are lots of people who want them boresighted (as it's true to the show) and there are lots of people who want them with a forward arc (as it reflects their extreme manoeuvrability).

Me... I'm neutral ;)
 
Triggy said:
The White Star (before the change) has above average survivability and a tiny bit above average guns compared to a typical Raid ship. What it also has on top is enormous speed and manoeuvrability and either a Nial flight or Scout. It's simply one of the best Raid ships out there (although I accept the reason it's so popular is because people like it from the show).

Once you learn how to leverage its manoeuvrability fully, you can eliminate the opposition with much greater efficiency as you should rarely be being shot at. Yes this sometimes means you'll sacrifice shots but this is well worth it to regenerate, repair crits and evade fire. A White Star should never be in the middle of a fight, it should always be at the edges, yet in most games I see they smash straight into the middle of enemy fleets and I get the feeling this is why several people undervalue it.

QFT.
 
I am not sold on self repair for BS and WS... it pretty much just gives a WS 2 extra damage and BS 1 extra damage. Unless I misread the rules and the crew gets regenerated as well.

I tend to agree with Triggy, its an above average raid level ship, but IMHO it is not an over the top kind. Boresight will probably make it less flexible enough that the crying will stop. A lot of other great raid level ships out there... someone has to be on top. In any case I think that its better to look at fleet head to head, as some fleets do better against others.

IMHO:

Fleets that own ISA
Narn, Vorlons, Gaim (probably)

These 4 fleets IMHO, have better then average odds of dealing with ISA.
Centauri have ships that can deal with WS quite easy.
Drakh can deal with them easy.
Mimbari dont have much problem
Shadows ..

Even Odds"
EA - early - good even fight
EA -Crusade - good even fight
Psi Core
Vree
Brakiri

Loose to ISA every time
Drazi
Abbai

Not sure about the 3rd age....


Also, not a fan of high energy turn for ISA.. now, for the Drazi on the other hand
 
stepan.razin said:
I am not sold on self repair for BS and WS... it pretty much just gives a WS 2 extra damage and BS 1 extra damage. Unless I misread the rules and the crew gets regenerated as well.

I tend to agree with Triggy, its an above average raid level ship, but IMHO it is not an over the top kind. Boresight will probably make it less flexible enough that the crying will stop. A lot of other great raid level ships out there... someone has to be on top. In any case I think that its better to look at fleet head to head, as some fleets do better against others.

IMHO:

Fleets that own ISA
Narn, Vorlons, Gaim (probably)

These 4 fleets IMHO, have better then average odds of dealing with ISA.
Centauri have ships that can deal with WS quite easy.
Drakh can deal with them easy.
Mimbari dont have much problem
Shadows ..

Even Odds"
EA - early - good even fight
EA -Crusade - good even fight
Psi Core
Vree
Brakiri

Loose to ISA every time
Drazi
Abbai

Not sure about the 3rd age....


Also, not a fan of high energy turn for ISA.. now, for the Drazi on the other hand


the self repair is a cannon ability of the whitestar. there are numerous refernces thoughout the the run of B5's five seaons that make reference to the "automatic repair systems".
 
Also where is the nerf. Its not nerfed its just a choice. You either fire one weapon at full dice or both weapons at half. Im not really seeing a nerf. Nefing it would be you only have beams now o you only have molecular pulsars now.
 
well it is a nerf to the firepower. thing is i think this will make it even harder to kill as al people will do is sit on the flanks of targets shooting the beam from 18" out as whats the point in closing to use secondaries now?
me I will be building fleets around the now far superior WS gunship.
 
skavendan said:
to be fair for most the second weapon is just an excuse to combine CBD with adaptive armour and dodge.

Thats a problem with the mechanics of CBD not the whitestar. If CBD had a 1/2 AD penalty you would see alot less races using it. Besides the Same could be said of the Demos, missiles are reloading ill just CBD and rely on my 10AD Ion cannons to shred the enemy (yes i know the Ion cannons were downgraded thankfully, I'm referring to how Demos were being used prior to this)

So this isnt a Whitestar only thing.
 
dag'karlove said:
Also where is the nerf. Its not nerfed its just a choice. You either fire one weapon at full dice or both weapons at half. Im not really seeing a nerf. Nefing it would be you only have beams now o you only have molecular pulsars now.
When something is reduced in strength, it is a nerf. At 10", I can fire all of my guns without being hampered, with the new rules, I now lose one of my Beam shots, if I also shoot my other weapons.

The White Star is a very popular canonical ship. The issue with the White Star meeting critisism is when you consider the limitations of the ISA. This game favoring numbers, over strength, an ISA player is more likely to run numerous White Stars to represent the White Star Fleet. We do not have a strong Skirmish option, and we have a variety of fighters. The fleets which run a bunch of White Stars, with a bunch of their cousins the Blue Star, are met with frustration because when something kills you, its probably a White Star. So the immediate response is that the White Star should be nerfed.

If we had strong options at Skirmish, and Battle, it would give people more of an incentive to vary their fleet, and as the White Star, or a variant of the White Star, is our only Raid choice (outside of allies) you're going to see a lot of White Stars on the table.

The concept of Boresight on a White Star just doesn't fit the ship. Boresight represents ships with light maneuverability, that can only fire forward from a mounted cannon. The White Star, as seen in the show, can not only maneuver as well as a Fighter, but fly sideways while firing, do a complete 180 on a dime, and fire, and other similarly awesome feats of agility. The forward arc, is this games way of representing that the White Star would not move and then fire, it would move, bringing targets into its beam sights, and unloading all guns as it passes the target, or as it nears the target. Telling it that it can only fire in a straight line, doesn't represent the show. This is a game based on a show, a series of movies, and some books. It needs to represent the material or it will continue to hemorrhage players, and all of this will have been for nothing.

If you Close Blast Doors, you get Dodge 4, and you get Adaptive Armor, but you have to be within 10" to fire. At 18" or less, if you CBD you only get 1 AD. At 18" if you fire the Pulsar, you only get 1AD from the beam.

The changes to the White Star, would mean a re-balancing of the White Star Gunship, which is really just a doubled White Star II. My solution overall, to the White Star I and White Star two, if there is concern over its value as a Raid level ship, is to reduce our range. If we are acting as a fighter, and a fighter has to commit to getting close, lets reduce the range on the Neutron Laser to be more in line with a weapon meant to fired in someones face. A White Star can maneuver 180 Degrees in its movement, so strafing runs where you run up, shoot someone, and continue to shoot them as you go past them, and then do a 180 and continue to fire on them, fully represents how White Stars use their speed to get into the face of the enemy and do a world of damage.

Interstellar Alliance - White Star
Turns: 2/90
Speed: 15
Damage: 10/3
Crew: 10/3
Special: Adaptive Armor, Advanced Jump Engine, Agile, Atmospheric, Dodge 4+, Flight Computer, Scout, Self Repair

Improved Neutron Laser: F Arc, Range 14, AD 2, Beam, Precise, TD
Molecular Pulsar: F Arc, 12 Range, AD 4, Accurate, AP, DD

What this does is takes four inches off of the Neutron Laser, and gives two of those inches to the Molecular Pulsar. You have to get closer to your enemy to fire your weapons, but you till properly represent the "Ah Hell!" maneuver of continuous fire. The White Star took Jump Engines offline to increase its firepower, but you never see it losing one weapon, in favor of another.

I do like the idea of half attack dice, on all CBD. That not only gives the Narn a greater penalty in exchange for their proposed CBD 4+ save, but it also better represents the tactic of cutting half your rate of fire, in exchange for higher defense. Allowing single weapon craft to CBD as well.
 
katadder said:
well it is a nerf to the firepower. thing is i think this will make it even harder to kill as al people will do is sit on the flanks of targets shooting the beam from 18" out as whats the point in closing to use secondaries now?
me I will be building fleets around the now far superior WS gunship.

Personally, I've not seen very many WS using their secondaries anyway, since in doing so they have to come within range of most races other secondaries (oh, except the Narn!).

As to the Gunship, well one thing I would say about it is that is probably comes closest to being "twice" the ship of the one a PL below. However, I'd still take 2 WS over one Gunship due to crit protection and init sinks.

Regards,

Dave
 
Which means you need to add an amount of attack dice, equal to the added risk of taking one ship, and one hull, instead of two for that protection.

AD 6 for the Beam, and AD 8 for the Pulsar. Assuming that the larger hull allows for greater Fire Power. That needs to be considered when you calculate what you "could get" for the PL choices.
 
Hindsight said:
Which means you need to add an amount of attack dice, equal to the added risk of taking one ship, and one hull, instead of two for that protection.

Why? No other ship in another fleet gets that. For the most part, a Battle level hull is somewhere around the region of about 1.6 Raid hulls. The WS Gunship isn't at 2 Raid, but it's probably in the region of 1.8ish.

An AD 6 P TD Beam on WS Gunship at Battle would be so horribly broken it's untrue!

Regards,

Dave
 
I am not happy with this change... The loss of the extra 1AD was a bit severe... That beam is what MAKES the fleet work IMO. Now that it has lost much of their strongest weapon makes me morn for them.

Now, perhaps the beam rules could be reworked: What if the beam regains the AD if they "Concentrate Firepower"? Or... better still why not let the White Stars keep their blasted 1AD and only loose it if they fire their 10" range guns too?

I guess I have not seen what all this White Star hate is about... :?
 
Hindsight said:
The concept of Boresight on a White Star just doesn't fit the ship. Boresight represents ships with light maneuverability, that can only fire forward from a mounted cannon. The White Star, as seen in the show, can not only maneuver as well as a Fighter, but fly sideways while firing, do a complete 180 on a dime, and fire, and other similarly awesome feats of agility.

Agile, with 2x90, and especially with the new SA it already gets to show off those feats of agility without having to "break" canon by firing off bore.

Personally, I would give them Vree style SM and a boresight weapon.

Regards,

Dave
 
Hindsight said:
Which means you need to add an amount of attack dice, equal to the added risk of taking one ship, and one hull, instead of two for that protection.

AD 6 for the Beam, and AD 8 for the Pulsar. Assuming that the larger hull allows for greater Fire Power. That needs to be considered when you calculate what you "could get" for the PL choices.

And then all the other fleets Battle level ships also need an upgrade - I'll take the 6 AD beam on my Liati - thank you :)

And then the war level ships.................
 
I agree. If numbers are the issue, upgrade the Battle on up craft to represent a value to those saying they don't want to take them.

Combat is fluid. Never do you see a White Star move, pause, fire, wait around until everyone else has fired, and then repeat. You'll never have the enemy move before you, or after you. These are all things represented as a game function, for the sake of finding a balance between what we have, what we can functionally do as a "game", and how best to represent what happens when a bunch of space ships go at it. This game goes quite a distance, making you move, and then turn, before you can move again, instead of just drawing squiggly lines of movement all across the board.

That said, it sounds like Boresighted weapons are a problem throughout the game, and I'm somewhat worried that where an issue exists with another craft, some want to make sure that if they have the problem that everyone else should too, and I'm much more ready to give every boresighted weapon a full frontal arc, as we don't pause before we fire, if you moved, if you can turn, as long as it is inside your arc, should be fine. It is something you give as a concession, given that we can't all move at once, firing as we go. Boresighted should maybe represent a 45 degree firing arc instead of the full 90 degrees, make some concession for facing, but as many many have pointed out, it isn't possible to always exactly line up to someones stem, and even when you do, this game could turn into even more of a swarm game, as people take numerous smaller craft as they are able, just as initiative sinks to overcome their boresight, and to overcome their foes initiative sinks. The ISA, at Raid 5 with 5 White Stars, without powerful Skirmish choices, would turn into the Blue Star fleet, just a series of initiative sinks, to force your opponents to move important ships first.

I played a Vree fleet tonight at Battle Five, during our playtesting of the new rules. I was outnumbered two to one, with much of their fleet kept out of range of me, on our 4 x 6 game table. They'd simply move all of their ships from the back ranks first, and eliminate the entire White Star fleets effectiveness. Do you want to tell me that you to create another reason for people to run Swarm Fleets?

Thats the last thing this game needs.

In the end, the popularity of the White Star being from the show is why it takes so much grief, and the fact that we as ISA field so many of them are cause for anyone who loses to an ISA fleet to scream nerf, but that doesn't mean the ship needs to take the nerf stick, and especially not to our beam weapons. I'd much more happily dump a Pulsar AD than my precious beam dice. Half the time I miss with both shots anyway!

Part of the fun for me, as a ISA player, is stacking up beam dice. I don't have big free numbers, I have to take allies to get e mines and other similar options. Don't go and nerf one of the things that makes the ISA interesting to play. Believe me, as much as I love my White Star, I wish we had a more diverse list, with some options at skirmish besides that stupid ranger shuttle.

The White Star is fine. Give us some options at Skirmish and Raid, so the whining can stop.
 
Hmm The ISA has two excellent raid level ships so not convinced another ship is need there at present - the Battle level command gunship makes sense to me.

re the Skirmish - I did make up a Skirmish level "Ghost Star" - no AA but Stealth and Scout and only Pulsars - but its lost in the forum crash -David Anla'Shok has suggested a Skirimish level Blue Star with Stealth / Scout may also work (although I am worried about the layered defences)

Would putting Stealth 3+ on the two present Skirmish level ISA ships make them worthwhile - they are Minbari ships?
 
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