Ministalker
Mongoose
I've checked v1.1 and still no sign of any change on the Shadow Omega.Skavendan said:
I fear you might have been right on this one.
Playtest Rules - Psi Corps
- Thread starter Ministalker
- Start date
I fear you might have been right on this one.
Yeah well like i said from the start people been moanning about that ship since i joinned the forum and it had nothing in all that time yet the nemisis gets an update>?
Think I'm just gunna start playing another empire. It's just not viable to take patrol + Skirmish + War as EA all the time. That's assuming you like the mothership frankly not the best raid choice.
Think I'm just gunna start playing another empire. It's just not viable to take patrol + Skirmish + War as EA all the time. That's assuming you like the mothership frankly not the best raid choice.
stepan.razin
Mongoose
skavendan said:
No love for the WS, but a Liatti is ok? Admit it, there is something else about a WS that bothers you.
By the way, we ran the new and improved WS vs the new and improved demos, and its not really close. (although 1 vs 1 is not a good way of testing these things)
stepan.razin
Mongoose
skavendan said:
10 Demos vs 5 WS? I will let another ISA player go through that exercise in futility. But I do have a 5 point ISA vs Centauri battle tomorrow... although I may dust of my crusade instead to play with the nukes :twisted:
I agree with Katader, Making WS beams be B is much better. Giving a Raid level ship a choice between CBD or do on average 3 points of damage with your primary weapon is a little underwhelming.
Just because the Shadow Omega isn't in the pack yet doesn't mean it won't change. One thing I've found with Matt is that if there are more than one idea (and in this case about six) floating about at the same time, he'll change nothing until it's agreed what people want. For what it's worth I tried out my version of the Shadow Omega last night and it did pretty well.
Based on the games I played Vs the ISA with triggys SO I suggest this as a SO
Priority Level: War
Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Hull: 6
Damage: 75/12
Crew: 84/18
Troops: 3
Craft: 4 Thunderbolt Flights (may upgrade to Shadowfury flights for 1 Patrol FAP)
In Service Date: 2261+
Traits: Advanced Jump Engine, Anti-Fighter 8, Flight Computer, Interceptors 6, Lumbering, Self-Repair 1d6, Shields 10/5
Weapons:
Molecular Slicer: 25" B 6AD Beam, Triple Damage
Molecular Slicer: 25" B(a) 6AD Beam, Double Damage
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" F 8AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" A 8AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" P 16AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" S 16AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" T 10AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Slight change to the shields recovery rate and aft and T arc weapons. With minor numbers change. P/S put to 15" because thats the range they are on the standard battle level Omega.
Priority Level: War
Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Hull: 6
Damage: 75/12
Crew: 84/18
Troops: 3
Craft: 4 Thunderbolt Flights (may upgrade to Shadowfury flights for 1 Patrol FAP)
In Service Date: 2261+
Traits: Advanced Jump Engine, Anti-Fighter 8, Flight Computer, Interceptors 6, Lumbering, Self-Repair 1d6, Shields 10/5
Weapons:
Molecular Slicer: 25" B 6AD Beam, Triple Damage
Molecular Slicer: 25" B(a) 6AD Beam, Double Damage
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" F 8AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" A 8AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" P 16AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" S 16AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" T 10AD, Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Slight change to the shields recovery rate and aft and T arc weapons. With minor numbers change. P/S put to 15" because thats the range they are on the standard battle level Omega.
That's a very big firepower upgrade! As I pointed out in the other thread I'd be happy for the light multiphased cutters to go up to 15" (if people can cope with the discrepancy of the Nemesis having a different range) and this would be more than enough. Range is the big issue with the Shadow Omega, not the quantity of firepower.
The shields being 10/1d6 is also more than enough, particularly when combined with self-repair, interceptors and hull 6 (just think how hard a 5 FAP at battle PL Vree, Abbai, Early EA or Centauri fleet would have to work to kill one).
The shields being 10/1d6 is also more than enough, particularly when combined with self-repair, interceptors and hull 6 (just think how hard a 5 FAP at battle PL Vree, Abbai, Early EA or Centauri fleet would have to work to kill one).
Triggy said:
I have to agree that the range is usually the issue but my group has been play testing this ship with a variety of changes for a bit now and the 10/1d6 shields does not measure up as the shields tend to be fairly minor once the initial has been used at that regen rate on a war level ship. 10/5 has been far more balanced on a ship of this priority level.
It's all single fire power damage...
The main problem is most oponents can choose if they want to be within 10" and as such they tend not to choose so unless they can out class you @10" and 12Mini-beam shots from a war class is just poor. I know where trying to get it to match the on screen evidence but single damage AD is poor. I'll have another ponder and lower down the AD but am only going to end up suggesting more range to compensate. it's the ability to fire at things more than the abilitiy to do nothing with oponents dodging out of B arc.
The main problem is most oponents can choose if they want to be within 10" and as such they tend not to choose so unless they can out class you @10" and 12Mini-beam shots from a war class is just poor. I know where trying to get it to match the on screen evidence but single damage AD is poor. I'll have another ponder and lower down the AD but am only going to end up suggesting more range to compensate. it's the ability to fire at things more than the abilitiy to do nothing with oponents dodging out of B arc.
katadder said:
Sharlin doesn't struggle to hit things with it's beam or have to do a special order to hit with it's beams and has stealth 5+ so it don't get hit often.
Tell you what field a Shadow Omega Vs a sharlin I give the SO 3 turns before it explodes with the suggested mods and 1/2 turns with currently aproved stats.
lol a shadow omega have problems hitting with its beams? maybe one on one but thats true of any boresight ship. lets see - the minbari fleet doesnt have patrol ships so you can outsink and probably always line up that beam.
add in a scout, something seeing the sharlin previous and you're down to 3+ to see it. get closer and its down to 2+.
the sharlin has 55 damage behind that amazing stealth. the shadow omega has 75 and self repair 1d6, plus a suggested 10 shields with either d6 or 5 regen.
so i think the SO will do ok in a fleet game.
but this came up over secondaries - according to you single damage mini-beams (even 12 TL) isnt enough, yet the suggested mini-beams for the SO get more dice on broadsides and TL. so obviously the sharlins secondaries in your opinion are not upto scratch for a warship.
add in a scout, something seeing the sharlin previous and you're down to 3+ to see it. get closer and its down to 2+.
the sharlin has 55 damage behind that amazing stealth. the shadow omega has 75 and self repair 1d6, plus a suggested 10 shields with either d6 or 5 regen.
so i think the SO will do ok in a fleet game.
but this came up over secondaries - according to you single damage mini-beams (even 12 TL) isnt enough, yet the suggested mini-beams for the SO get more dice on broadsides and TL. so obviously the sharlins secondaries in your opinion are not upto scratch for a warship.
Different fleet different tactics range on OS 24" for beam B arc.
Sharlin 30 F 8 Beam, Double Damage, Precise can out range it. DD is abit low but you could take the Sharkaan-class Advanced War Cruiser (Sharlin Variant) against it which would give you Improved Neutron Laser 36 F 6 Beam, Precise, Triple Damage.
Now you have 12" over the shadow Omega same AD but your Precise which is a big deal since crits rule the game.
So you stand off blowing things up dumb enough to get close to you.
OK some hunters would hurt you cuz of the speed and good damage BUT there not the ship in question here. as a fleet pans out the PSI has to take Fighters carriers also rubbish/slow.
Yeah sharlins dont get massive secondaries but when you hit things with your primaries you do at least a battle points worth of damage I would say.
I fired the MB and beam at a ship and i didn't even cripple it in my test game. Which is posted on the forum. So yeah it currently has issues. And I would like it fixxing but it seems no1 cares.
Sharlin 30 F 8 Beam, Double Damage, Precise can out range it. DD is abit low but you could take the Sharkaan-class Advanced War Cruiser (Sharlin Variant) against it which would give you Improved Neutron Laser 36 F 6 Beam, Precise, Triple Damage.
Now you have 12" over the shadow Omega same AD but your Precise which is a big deal since crits rule the game.
So you stand off blowing things up dumb enough to get close to you.
OK some hunters would hurt you cuz of the speed and good damage BUT there not the ship in question here. as a fleet pans out the PSI has to take Fighters carriers also rubbish/slow.
Yeah sharlins dont get massive secondaries but when you hit things with your primaries you do at least a battle points worth of damage I would say.
I fired the MB and beam at a ship and i didn't even cripple it in my test game. Which is posted on the forum. So yeah it currently has issues. And I would like it fixxing but it seems no1 cares.
well if your actually fired the main beam and your minibeams at a ship you should be almost equaling a sharlins damage.
sharlin 8AD precise beam - 8 hits, 3 (well 2 and a bit) crits and gregs average damage for crits was 1.65 or something so 16+9.9 (call it 10) gives a nice 26 damage. now the minis hit 4 times for total 30 damage from an average sharlin.
SO 6AD TD beam - 6 hits, 1 crit so 18+4.95 (call it 5) gives 23 damage. add in the 6AD TL minis gives 4.5 hits so 27-28 damage. only 2 differance in that.
obviously getting the big crits will make a differance to any result. also if the sharlin only gets 2 crits with its beam its average damage drops by 3.3 to make them equal.
on broadsides the SO does better getting 10 hits compared to the sharlins 4. rear arc obviously sharlin has the rear beam gives it the advantage there. but with shields and SR plus more damage I would say the SO is just as good if it got the upgrades we requested and its secondaries dont need improving.
sharlin 8AD precise beam - 8 hits, 3 (well 2 and a bit) crits and gregs average damage for crits was 1.65 or something so 16+9.9 (call it 10) gives a nice 26 damage. now the minis hit 4 times for total 30 damage from an average sharlin.
SO 6AD TD beam - 6 hits, 1 crit so 18+4.95 (call it 5) gives 23 damage. add in the 6AD TL minis gives 4.5 hits so 27-28 damage. only 2 differance in that.
obviously getting the big crits will make a differance to any result. also if the sharlin only gets 2 crits with its beam its average damage drops by 3.3 to make them equal.
on broadsides the SO does better getting 10 hits compared to the sharlins 4. rear arc obviously sharlin has the rear beam gives it the advantage there. but with shields and SR plus more damage I would say the SO is just as good if it got the upgrades we requested and its secondaries dont need improving.
Thanks katadder - I think the Sharlin example shows nicely how my proposals (with either d6 or 5 shield regeneration) actually match up pretty well to most other War PL choices. Yes we know War PL ships in general aren't worth four Raid PL choices but that direct comparison will be changing soon anyway.
I always found the ideal fleet composition (assuming under 50% of the ships are boresighted) for a fleet to be one ship at +1 PL of the game, one ship at the PL, 2-3 ships at -1 PL and 2-4 ships at -2 PL. This means that the big "flagship" often isn't targetted whilst the opponent targets initiative sinks and the biggest ship can go about its business with relative impunity.
I always found the ideal fleet composition (assuming under 50% of the ships are boresighted) for a fleet to be one ship at +1 PL of the game, one ship at the PL, 2-3 ships at -1 PL and 2-4 ships at -2 PL. This means that the big "flagship" often isn't targetted whilst the opponent targets initiative sinks and the biggest ship can go about its business with relative impunity.
From my point of view the sharlins sides are suppose to be it's weakness. i mean if it didn't you wouldn't stand a chance against it abit like the cheesy
Sharoos-class Heavy War Cruiser (Sharlin Variant)
beams all round just evades your front arc.
It's simply the matter of getting the hits in before the SO never made into firing range now it's getting there but not doing that much.
I don't care for averages. I mean my average for 4AD beam is 12 hit's max ever rolled 17
I am going to look at using the standard Omega hull as the design for it's weapon upgrades and play test it again this sunday.
This is your standard Omega:
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 6 Beam, Double Damage
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B (a) 4 Beam, Double Damage
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 A 4 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 P 8 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 S 8 Twin-Linked
I'll use:
Molecular Slicer: 24" B 6AD Beam, Triple Damage
Molecular Slicer: 24" B(a) 4AD Beam, Double Damage
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 12" F 8AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" A 4AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" P 5AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked*
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" P 12AD Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" S 5AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked*
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" S 12AD Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Shields 10/5
*Slow loading when crippled.
We could look at taking twin-linked off of the mini-beams?
My scouts don't have that much to do most games lol so having targets to paint would be ok for me.
Sharoos-class Heavy War Cruiser (Sharlin Variant)
beams all round just evades your front arc.
It's simply the matter of getting the hits in before the SO never made into firing range now it's getting there but not doing that much.
I don't care for averages. I mean my average for 4AD beam is 12 hit's max ever rolled 17
I am going to look at using the standard Omega hull as the design for it's weapon upgrades and play test it again this sunday.
This is your standard Omega:
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 6 Beam, Double Damage
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B (a) 4 Beam, Double Damage
Heavy Pulse Cannon 12 F 8 Twin-Linked
Light Laser Cannon 15 P 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Light Laser Cannon 15 S 4 Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 A 4 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 P 8 Twin-Linked
Medium Pulse Cannon 10 S 8 Twin-Linked
I'll use:
Molecular Slicer: 24" B 6AD Beam, Triple Damage
Molecular Slicer: 24" B(a) 4AD Beam, Double Damage
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 12" F 8AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" A 4AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" P 5AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked*
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" P 12AD Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 15" S 5AD Mini-Beam,Twin-Linked*
Light Multi-Phased Cutter: 10" S 12AD Mini-Beam, Twin-Linked
Shields 10/5
*Slow loading when crippled.
We could look at taking twin-linked off of the mini-beams?
My scouts don't have that much to do most games lol so having targets to paint would be ok for me.
