Playtest Rules -- Dilgar Update (Alpha Strike)
- Thread starter CZuschlag
- Start date
CZuschlag said:
Hmmm, I would suggest that the rule text be clarified, then. It does say "a ship" but it does not clearly prevent each ship in the pentacon from rolling for Alpha strike. At least that's what it looks like out West. Perhaps a change from A ship leading a squadron may take this Special Action to something like One ship in each squadron may take this Special Action
I just realized that the rule does not actually require a pentacon either, it requires a squadron, i.e., at least two ships. Is squadron an intentional word choice or would pentacon be more precise in this case?
If I can just pair up Dilgar ships and start rolling for Alpha Strikes then yes, this rule is broken. Pentacon makes more sense as it is supposed to be central to Dilgar tactics.
Omnipotent
Mongoose
Just realized that I don´t even know exactly what this alpha strike is...a change of crits from the mass driver weapon system?
Burger said:2 crits, you have 17% chance of getting the same location.
3 crits, you have 44% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
4 crits, you have 72% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
5 crits, you have 91% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
6 crits, you have 98% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
7 crits, you have 100 % chance of getting 2 or more in the same
Out of curiosity, how many dice do you need to roll to get 2 crits?
To eliminate some variables, lets say you need 4+ to hit. Dilgar primaries are A/S Missiles and Bolters which are AP and the average opponent hull (rounding up) is 5.
The reason I ask is to examine the above table in the context of a game. How many dice would the Dilgar player have to shoot at an opposing ship to get the 2 crits necessary to make this rule relevant? My simplistic thought is 24 dice (giving 12 hits which in turn give 2 crits), but given that there are probabilities involved, the number may be less.
My gut tells me that for this to be a problem, the game is going to need to take place at the several Battle points level. At lower levels, say 5 Raid points, the Dilgar player is going to have to abandon ship variety and fleet flexibility to get the kind of results he wants.
I suppose somewhere on the interwebs there's a site that will tell me how to do all of this...
Dilgar do need something if the idea is to give everyone something...
BUT... nothing should make crits nastier. They are already one of the biggest issues in the game, and a direct increase in the ability to get the 'I Win!' roll is not needed for any race.
The problem with this is it's not a situational advantage... why not have one ship always try this. It's a straight up increase in firepower in one of the nastiest concentrations of firepower in the game. Two to four ships concentrate firepower and one ship goes for this... with the Ki your looking at not so bad numbers 50-50 to increase the firepower of a whole squadron.
Falls in the 'no brainer' category of things that should tell you its overpowered. If the race needed help it would be one thing... but it doesn't.
Give them the enhance Ramming Speed thing the Drazi always had, rare enough you can try a standard ram... showing that crew as being that fanatical would be fine.
Ripple
BUT... nothing should make crits nastier. They are already one of the biggest issues in the game, and a direct increase in the ability to get the 'I Win!' roll is not needed for any race.
The problem with this is it's not a situational advantage... why not have one ship always try this. It's a straight up increase in firepower in one of the nastiest concentrations of firepower in the game. Two to four ships concentrate firepower and one ship goes for this... with the Ki your looking at not so bad numbers 50-50 to increase the firepower of a whole squadron.
Falls in the 'no brainer' category of things that should tell you its overpowered. If the race needed help it would be one thing... but it doesn't.
Give them the enhance Ramming Speed thing the Drazi always had, rare enough you can try a standard ram... showing that crew as being that fanatical would be fine.
Ripple
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
wkehrman said:
Well thats a very strange statement to make. Depends comletely and utterly practical probabilitty is very different from theoretical, luck plays its part. Its not the probability of it that you need to consider but the fact that a dilgar pentacon; say 4 targraths and 1 ochlvita ki Has great damage potential and will on their own completely reduce an armageddon level ship to slag or cripple it to death making it useless; so the pentacon can finish it off next turn, if there pottential is slightly reached in the slightest.
No. 1 Bear said:
I realize that I can roll two dice, get two hits and follow that up with two crits. I also realize that I can roll 100 dice and get no crits. I'm wondering how many attack dice I'd have to roll to stand a good chance of this Special Action coming into effect.
In my earlier example, there is a 50% chance of a hit, with that hit, there is a 17% chance of a crit. Do I then have a 9% chance of a crit (.50*.17=.085) or am I totally misunderstanding this thing? Do I simply multiply by the number of dice I roll--with 10 dice I have a 90% chance of a crit?
How many attack dice at AP do I need to throw to have a chance of two crits on the same location?
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
silashand said:
Third here... I don't dislike crits per-say, I just dislike how they can instantly take a ship out of the game. Its possible for a star fury to pop a Ka'Bin'Tak with the first AD of a game and totally cripple it. That, sir, is just silly and not fun.
I personally think the Dilgar already have enough of their own flavor with MoD and pentacon.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
What do we do, then, to stop the "Everyone ignores the Dilgar" thread of hate that we're going to get (because you know it'll happen)?
[Note: I went to search for a link to the monster "you don't support us" thread ... and couldn't find it. Then I remembered; it was one of the very few threads I've ver seen here where it got so bad and nasty that the whole thread got deleted. So not good.]
Perhaps ... I dunno. Giving them an Ochliavita that does't stink might make them too powerful again (I thought the old one was fair and a lot of fun, myself; even keeping the screwy 1 die of laser.) -- it kinda seems to be one of the fleet holes that might be intentional. If you give a new decent Ochliavita variant that not being published with the rest of stuff under review (we know there's at least a few ships like that), then the Dilgar players won't complain much at all.
Slight improvement to the Thorun on a suicide run (I never use my Thoruns that way, ever)? Rejigger the Dilgar Refits and Duties lists (the current options are just god-awful!)? Speed up the Wahan (1" inch, max!) I'm a Dilgar player first, but I'm running out of improvements for these guys that aren't improvements because they really don't need much. They're just a really, really solid fleet already, based just on pure, raw, offensive firepower. Not much else to say.
[Note: I went to search for a link to the monster "you don't support us" thread ... and couldn't find it. Then I remembered; it was one of the very few threads I've ver seen here where it got so bad and nasty that the whole thread got deleted. So not good.]
Perhaps ... I dunno. Giving them an Ochliavita that does't stink might make them too powerful again (I thought the old one was fair and a lot of fun, myself; even keeping the screwy 1 die of laser.) -- it kinda seems to be one of the fleet holes that might be intentional. If you give a new decent Ochliavita variant that not being published with the rest of stuff under review (we know there's at least a few ships like that), then the Dilgar players won't complain much at all.
Slight improvement to the Thorun on a suicide run (I never use my Thoruns that way, ever)? Rejigger the Dilgar Refits and Duties lists (the current options are just god-awful!)? Speed up the Wahan (1" inch, max!) I'm a Dilgar player first, but I'm running out of improvements for these guys that aren't improvements because they really don't need much. They're just a really, really solid fleet already, based just on pure, raw, offensive firepower. Not much else to say.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Will there be the same uproar when the pak'ma'ra don't get anything in P&P?
Nah, the pak are just too laissez faire. They won't complain, they'll just dig up Matt's grandma and eat her remains.
Nah, the pak are just too laissez faire. They won't complain, they'll just dig up Matt's grandma and eat her remains.
silashand said:
We (Gary, David, dag'kar and I) have discussed a house rule whereby we limit the crits by adopting the Victory at Sea model. For every 6 rolled (5+ for precise) roll one die, on a 4+ the crit occurs.
As much as I hate to agree with some of you out there, this is a valid point.
If P&P is a "give everyone something" sort of publication, what, then would be an alternative?
wkehrman said:
Personally, I think this would be best applied as part of Close Blast Doors and would apply to all fleets, but that's me. It just seems appropriate for that SA.
I don't mind making sure everyone gets something as it keeps interest in all the fleets. As for the Dilgar and this thread, unfortunately it would seem a damage-related ability would be most appropriate based on the background. However, IMO making the Ochlavita at least worthwhile would probably be enough. All ships should have a place in the fleet and be useful *enough* that they appear once in a while. From all the talk here, it appears they rarely seem to show up which is a shame since the model is quite cool. Giving it a flight or two of Dartifghters might be enough to make it worth taking, but it would require a bit of playtesting.
As for a Dilgar-unique special ability, how about:
Proximity Fuses
Dilgar weaponry is legendary in its horrific nature and every instrument was designed with the single-minded purpose of causing as much destruction and physical harm to the enemy as possible. Some warheads were designed to detonate immediately, others to punch through an enemy hull then explode when inside vital areas, and some were designed to detonate later, lulling the enemy into a false sense of security that the warhead was perhaps a dud. Most of these latter types were set with a delayed fuse ranging from a few minutes to even hours, though a few were equipped with proximity fuses that would go off when movement was detected within a specified range, usually killing maintenance personnel and/or repair crews as they searched the ship trying to rid the vessel of unexploded ordnance and effect repairs. This tactic was greatly feared among the Dilgar's enemies, and rightly so, a fact that gave the Dilgar themselves great satisfaction.
Whenever a Dilgar weapon that causes triple damage on a critical hit, i.e. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, etc. does so against an enemy vessel, roll a D6. On a 4+ the weapon will automatically cause an additional D3 crew casualties in addition to any other damage on the chart. This additional crew damage is not increased by the double/triple damage trait as would normal critical hit damage, nor is it reduced by adaptive armour, though if the vessel is on Close Blast Doors they may attempt to save against this extra crew damage as normal.
While this ability is linked to critical hits, it at least has the virtue of not increasing their frequency. I dunno if this is any better than the other, but it is a thought anyway. For those who don't know, this is based on real cluster bomb weaponry available today.
Cheers, Gary
Omnipotent
Mongoose
Yup, I noticed this right away when starting ACTA, thus proposing it a while back. This one flight or maybe even two for the Destroyer variant would tip the balance towards wanting to use it more often.
Silashand, not a bad idea, dunno how this would look playing though.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
wkehrman said:
I vote they get little party hats
