Playtest Rules -- Dilgar Update (Alpha Strike)

[CZuschlag]

A thread to talk about this update for the Dilgar, which I expect will be very controversial, given that it involves our favorite argument-maker, the Criticals Chart.

Here's what I said on another thread:

3). Dilgar Alpha Strike. Well, now the Dilgar weenie fleet backed up by a Mass Driver gets awful. The 1-6's and 2-6's will get a workout (as it is still the same systems....Engines!) and the first 1-4 makes the next 2-something a 2-6, and here comes the Wahant's 20 dice of Mass Driver. Wow! That is, if you didn't blow the ship already from a 6-6.

I don't like this for several reasons.
> It stacks with CAF.
> It stacks with Scouts
> It leverages the Ochliavita Ki too powerfully
> The game has more criticism from overly powerful critical hits as is
> Dilgar crits are overly powerful already
> This is a big-ship wrecker, and big ships get wrecked enough already
> More firepower is the last thing the Dilgar need, or should have.
> Mass Drivers as real weapons are a major fundamental rebalance

Dilgar are a much more nuanced fleet than just close-and-kill nowadays; the Thorun and the Torpedobomber give them so many more options than they used to have.

I haven't heard anything from anyone else about this one. Am I wrong here?

Disclosure:
Primary Fleet: Dilgar
Secondary Fleet: Drakh
Tertiary Fleet: Early EA

 

[Burger]

Its a big boost for Dilgar swarms, and yet another reason not to take a big ship. Bad bad bad.

 

[H]

now then, whenI read alphastrike, I was somewhat worried. So in a 5 war point outing between brakiri and Dilgar, we employed this rule. . . now by luck or judgement, it never even occured, I was quite shocked. So on that basis assuming a worst case, I don't currently have qualms about it, I still took a 6-6 with a MOD triple damage shot, (in fact i took 3 6-6's in the game) none of which were attributed to alpha strike. perhaps another run is needed to see if it ever IS effective.

 

[Burger]

So what you're saying is, if the rule never comes up, then it isn't broken? Errr... well the Armageddon Sagittarius wasn't broken if you never selected it, either!!

 

[H]

the concern would be how often it would happen, yet in a 5 war point game it didn't happen at all. I am not suggesting this is average by any stretch of the imagination, what I am now suggesting is that people need to run some numbers to see how many times it "should" happen, and then some more numbers on what crist you get. And burger thats you. you are good with numbers, work out the averages on it. . My playtest showed that dice are as ever, completely useless in deciding a rule!

 

[Burger]

2 crits, you have 17% chance of getting the same location.
3 crits, you have 44% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
4 crits, you have 72% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
5 crits, you have 91% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
6 crits, you have 98% chance of getting 2 or more in the same.
7 crits, you have 100 % chance of getting 2 or more in the same

 

[H]

now then, run those with a few different pentacon formations, with lets say, a hull 5 vessel?

 

[Burger]

Well lets see a Targrath has 16 dice, hitting on 4's, that is 8 hits so on average 1.33 crits per ship. Times 5 gives 6.66, but some of these will come from the same ship (the rule only applies to different ships getting the same crit area). So overall it is pretty likely the rule will come into effect.

 

[H]

see thats what i like, maths, it disproves everything from my game

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Maths is only theoretical. so that can be quite true. And remember on a game based on chance not what should actually happen maths more often than not goes out the window. For example a single vorlon fighter flight pinning a shadow scout. Unlikely but still happened.

 

[Burger]

maths more often than not goes out the window

As long as it goes out the window equally each way (ie for every 6AD beam that gets no hits, you also get one that scores 12) then you're fine!

 

[Ripple]

No more enhancing crits... period.

Thank you very much...

Ripple

 

[Omnipotent]

I don´t see the need to change much in the Dilgar fleet.

Just give the Ochlavita destroyer a flight or maybe even two to make ti a worth while choice!

And maybe nerf the range on those missiles...to 20 inches. The Dilgars fleet is solid as it is, why change it to much. The 4" drop on the missile range would only push players to manouver even more with those fast slick looking ships :twisted:

 

[Burger]

I don´t see the need to change much in the Dilgar fleet.

If every race except Dilgar gets something new and cool, do you have any idea what would happen? Lets just say that a certain 27 page thread would be resurrected big time, and a small town in Northern Ireland would have a serious riot problem!

 

[Omnipotent]

I was under the impression that most "upgrades" done are to level the field of play more equal amongst the races, not to upgrade each and every race...what the hell would that help, if everyone gets something nice....the Vree gets better, the abbai gets better = Vree remains way better, and the abbai get´s to the level they SHOULD have been from the start of 2ed :? ...if you catch my drift.

 

[scorpioni]

Did I hear Armageddon Dilgar ship here?
No?

AAAArgh

*grabs pitchfork*

/end joke

I too find the alpha strike something strange/overpowered/not necessary

Sadly enough, I don't know anything as an alternative :?

 

[Burger]

No, the "Fleet Command" chapter is meant to be "new cool stuff". It just happens that some of them (eg Abbai's SA) are also used to boost an underpowered race.

 

[Omnipotent]

No, the "Fleet Command" chapter is meant to be "new cool stuff". It just happens that some of them (eg Abbai's SA) are also used to boost an underpowered race.

Very well...hope we get some simple enough "cool stuff", and some simple enough solutions to the problems 2ed have atm.

 

[wkehrman]

Burger, how does the math change when the CQC of 9 is factored in? I'm a little fuzzy on the Ochlavita-Ki's effect on a pentacon; it says "all other ships it leads get a +1 to" CQC, so I don't think the Ki leading the pentacon gets the +1 bonus to CQC. Since it is the leading ship that must take the CQC, the probability of even using the Special Action is 33% (5+).

There are a lot of other variables, some of which may not be quantifiable: How many pentacons can I create in a 6 point Raid game? (tournament standard?) How long will the pentacon last? Is this a Special Action that is only useful in the first couple of turns before the pentacon(s) are reduced?

The math would suggest (understand that beyond algebra I get very lost very quickly) that you'd need 3 turns to ensure a pentacon could use an Alpha Strike. What is the probability that the opponent can reduce the pentacons in some manner (killing weaker ships, initiative sinks, etc.) in those first two turns? That last question is rhetorical as I do not expect anyone to calculate those odds for all the different fleets.

The Alpha Strike looks pretty devastating; what are the odds it will actually come into play?

 

[greenboy]

But the dilgar already have something special masters of destruction and pentacon formation