Playtest New Rules Centauri
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
CZuschlag said:
Hmmm... hadn't thought of that, though my original point still stands. The re-targeted vessel still has to be in LoS so if you're firing front arc weapons at it then you cannot re-target the weapon at something in the port arc. Boresight weapons would be even better since unless another ship is along the boresight line then it is not a valid re-target. While the above scenario is indeed nasty, it can still be prevented/mitigated with proper alignment.
All that said, personally I think the wolfpack rule should simply apply to ships of the same type and/or class of vessel, i.e. 6 vorchan, 6 morgrath, etc. After all, they have to operate effectively together, thus they would need similar speeds, etc. Do that and most if not all the problems with the rule go away.
Cheers, Gary
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
Haha thats mental i have an invunerable group of demos, as if they werent bad enough . Anyway i would suggest something like guardian array but with weaponary so you can see around those asteroid fields make sure everyone stays i arc. Its not spectacluar but doesn't go over the top.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
It destroys escorts. Its not an escort that is also a destroyer.
No. 1 Bear
Mongoose
The english language and the lack of a comma make it like that. Quite crazy really but back on topic.
I have to agree with most others that the new hunting pack rule is too powerful when combined with interceptors, stealth, dodge, big ships on CBD etc. The idea is interesting but some changes would be needed to handle the above concerns such as disallowing stealth, interceptors or dodge on the newly targeted ship since the ship is getting in the way of the attack to some degree. Maybe not allowing a Lumbering ship like the Balvarin to do this might also take care of the big ship issue since most other raid and below ships are not that bulky.
I am not sure that reducing the Demos's cannons to 6 AD was required. This seems to be a bit much (like what happened to the poor Corvan from 1st to 2nd edition). We have been using it with an 8 AD for some time now in our games and that seems to make it a decent alternative to the Vorchan but at 6AD it may no longer be comparable.
Six ships to a squadron seems like a nice idea (and with the new rules on the haven may not be too bad) but I do not really see it as being needed or used too often especially if the hunting pack rule is fixed.
I am not sure that reducing the Demos's cannons to 6 AD was required. This seems to be a bit much (like what happened to the poor Corvan from 1st to 2nd edition). We have been using it with an 8 AD for some time now in our games and that seems to make it a decent alternative to the Vorchan but at 6AD it may no longer be comparable.
Six ships to a squadron seems like a nice idea (and with the new rules on the haven may not be too bad) but I do not really see it as being needed or used too often especially if the hunting pack rule is fixed.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
I think requiring 6 ships is a big restriction and helps to balance the advantage of these hunting packs (balance them enough considering the defensive advantage, I don't know).
Forcing a hunting pack of 6 or more to move in a squadron and stay within range of one another means their behaviour will be predictable and they can get force fed a lot of beams (especially bore sighted ones
)
Forcing a hunting pack of 6 or more to move in a squadron and stay within range of one another means their behaviour will be predictable and they can get force fed a lot of beams (especially bore sighted ones
)Greg Smith
Mongoose
It is interesting that boresight beams are an advantage when fighting a hunting pack - cos their is nothing else in 'arc' to shift to. 
Squadrons may be a disadvantage when moving, but being able to fire six ships all in one go certainly isn't (unless you inadvertentantly reduce your target to slag with a lucky crit and waste a bunch of fire).
Squadrons may be a disadvantage when moving, but being able to fire six ships all in one go certainly isn't (unless you inadvertentantly reduce your target to slag with a lucky crit and waste a bunch of fire).
Greg Smith said:It is interesting that boresight beams are an advantage when fighting a hunting pack - cos their is nothing else in 'arc' to shift to.
Squadrons may be a disadvantage when moving, but being able to fire six ships all in one go certainly isn't (unless you inadvertentantly reduce your target to slag with a lucky crit and waste a bunch of fire).
Personally, I think the ability could be balanced by requiring a die roll to see if another ship gets in the way, say maybe a 5+ or so. I'd also make it a random ship within 6" as long as all other criteria are met. It's not like the Centauri would willingly sacrifice themselves for their brethren after all. That way it still represents their "pack" formation, but combined with the careful manouvering/positioning I mentioned earlier would mitigate its abusiveness. Just an idea anyway.
Cheers, Gary
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:It is interesting that boresight beams are an advantage when fighting a hunting pack - cos their is nothing else in 'arc' to shift to.
Squadrons may be a disadvantage when moving, but being able to fire six ships all in one go certainly isn't (unless you inadvertentantly reduce your target to slag with a lucky crit and waste a bunch of fire).
Even if the other hunting pack ships can take fire from arcs they aren't in (something I don't really have a problem with), bore sight weapons still get an advantage. Consider 6 Vorchans in a pack against 6 Drazi warbirds. If the Centauri player loses initiative, as long as they are in range, all of the drazi ships are going to have a target to feed a lot of beam and twin linked dice to. Also, if you do out flank the hunting pack, it will be difficult for the centauri player to out manuver the flanking ship.
Being able to target ships out of arc isn't the issue, it's adding ships to the pack that give an unintended serious advantage to the pack such as the Covran which can make the attacker also roll vs stealth when he never intended to do so. There are other examples that have also been pointed out. That's why I say it would be better represented if a random ship within 6" ended up the target, but only on a succcesful die roll. Besides representing the fluff more accurately (the swirling & circling of the wolves), it would also prevent intentional abuses by the Centauri player.
Cheers, Gary
Cheers, Gary
I don't like the idea on a number of levels...
Essentially what you are saying is you cannot use multiple ships to wear down any single member of the pack. If you are using multiple ships to attack the pack you must destroy it totally, or risk causing nothing but surface damage to all of it. While it doesn't have all the advantages of a swarm fleet, you have essentially included most the damage resilience advantages and packed them into one activation. You've replaced the Octurian with a wolf-pack of five Demos, gaining the firepower concentration of a large ship and the resilience of a swarm... just no.
Squadrons this big are a bad idea... in really big games it's not so bad but smaller games suffer from it as most of the ships go boom every time this kind of concentration fires. Remember... most swarms will out AD the parent point by a good margin.
All the above points about the multitude of abuses this is subject to are correct, and there are no easy fixes. Saying they are vulnerable to ship explosions and e-mines are just not valid, you just saying lets play rock paper scissors, even given the current spread of e-mines.
Triggy is on the right track... if you want to give the Centauri something stop trying to make their already over the top skirmish line better and give the high end standard ships something. Be nice to see something other than a Liata.
How about 'counter fire' - a centauri ship may target an enemy ship and attempt to degrade it's fire by firing back along the most likely fire paths with it's ion cannons. All ion cannons cannot fire that turn, but any fire from the targeted ship is affected as if the Centauri ship had a set of interceptor dice equal one tenth it's AD in the facing arc rounded up. These interceptor dice are fresh when the target ship fires, but do not stack with other interceptor dice... the ship must choose which set to use.
Really useful on the bigger ships as they approach... I would think. Maybe even allow them to intercept beam hits. Since you give up standard shots to get the defense it's not a no brainer all the time, and since it affects only one ship you have to think carefully about who you block.
Just an idea that's more big ship oriented, think Battlestar Galactica and the Basestar crossing attack streams...
Ripple
Essentially what you are saying is you cannot use multiple ships to wear down any single member of the pack. If you are using multiple ships to attack the pack you must destroy it totally, or risk causing nothing but surface damage to all of it. While it doesn't have all the advantages of a swarm fleet, you have essentially included most the damage resilience advantages and packed them into one activation. You've replaced the Octurian with a wolf-pack of five Demos, gaining the firepower concentration of a large ship and the resilience of a swarm... just no.
Squadrons this big are a bad idea... in really big games it's not so bad but smaller games suffer from it as most of the ships go boom every time this kind of concentration fires. Remember... most swarms will out AD the parent point by a good margin.
All the above points about the multitude of abuses this is subject to are correct, and there are no easy fixes. Saying they are vulnerable to ship explosions and e-mines are just not valid, you just saying lets play rock paper scissors, even given the current spread of e-mines.
Triggy is on the right track... if you want to give the Centauri something stop trying to make their already over the top skirmish line better and give the high end standard ships something. Be nice to see something other than a Liata.
How about 'counter fire' - a centauri ship may target an enemy ship and attempt to degrade it's fire by firing back along the most likely fire paths with it's ion cannons. All ion cannons cannot fire that turn, but any fire from the targeted ship is affected as if the Centauri ship had a set of interceptor dice equal one tenth it's AD in the facing arc rounded up. These interceptor dice are fresh when the target ship fires, but do not stack with other interceptor dice... the ship must choose which set to use.
Really useful on the bigger ships as they approach... I would think. Maybe even allow them to intercept beam hits. Since you give up standard shots to get the defense it's not a no brainer all the time, and since it affects only one ship you have to think carefully about who you block.
Just an idea that's more big ship oriented, think Battlestar Galactica and the Basestar crossing attack streams...
Ripple
Kinda like the ion cannons intercepting things. Strip all interceptors off the Centauri except Maximus, Let them when IDF gain interceptor 1 even though they don't have any interceptors but only from the arc they ion cannons in. Shoot at a Demos from the side & no interceptors.
Just an idea
Just an idea
I love the idea of the main battle-line going down the throat of the enemy pouring out suppressive fire. It can even work (somewhat) with the fluff, as Centauri are noted for the use of explosive rounds - now we see why!
If you are going for a defense against a single ship, it probably should be more dice than one tenth implies, after all it is a very concentrated lane of fire, and really should be one ship per arc of fire. I'd go for a level that gives a nice differential between the Primus/Secundus and the Octurion, too.
I would opt for a rule that keeps it to the line-of battle ships (which i think of as Centurion, Primus, Secundus, Octurion and Adira), that way you don't have to do too much tinkering around with changes to fleet stats. Call it "Pride of the Emperor" or something, add fluff to say "Advanced targeting systems fitted to larger vessels now enable...." or something like that.
If you are going for a defense against a single ship, it probably should be more dice than one tenth implies, after all it is a very concentrated lane of fire, and really should be one ship per arc of fire. I'd go for a level that gives a nice differential between the Primus/Secundus and the Octurion, too.
I would opt for a rule that keeps it to the line-of battle ships (which i think of as Centurion, Primus, Secundus, Octurion and Adira), that way you don't have to do too much tinkering around with changes to fleet stats. Call it "Pride of the Emperor" or something, add fluff to say "Advanced targeting systems fitted to larger vessels now enable...." or something like that.
Suggestion
Centauri Hunting Packs:
As well as big, expensive cruisers and battleships, the Centauri fleet is characterised by smaller vessels that form Hunting Packs. Able to combine their firepower, these Hunting Packs are trained for constant manoeuvre, hitting an enemy hard and all at once, then spiralling away out of harm.
So long as they contain no ships higher of Raid level or above, a Centauri squadron may be designated as a 'Hunting Pack'. Hunting Packs may contain up to six ships. A ship in a Hunting Pack may use a Manouvre to Shield Them! special action to protect any other squadron members within 6", even if they are not between them and the firing ship (this does mean they can potentially protect a squadron mate from multiple attackers). Ships which are crippled or skeleton crewed will be left behind by the rest of the pack and must drop out of the squadron at the first opportunity.
Means you don't get free redistribution of hits, and knocks stealth and dodge out of the equation. Plus it's CQ checks to pick the right guy out of the flock.
Centauri Hunting Packs:
As well as big, expensive cruisers and battleships, the Centauri fleet is characterised by smaller vessels that form Hunting Packs. Able to combine their firepower, these Hunting Packs are trained for constant manoeuvre, hitting an enemy hard and all at once, then spiralling away out of harm.
So long as they contain no ships higher of Raid level or above, a Centauri squadron may be designated as a 'Hunting Pack'. Hunting Packs may contain up to six ships. A ship in a Hunting Pack may use a Manouvre to Shield Them! special action to protect any other squadron members within 6", even if they are not between them and the firing ship (this does mean they can potentially protect a squadron mate from multiple attackers). Ships which are crippled or skeleton crewed will be left behind by the rest of the pack and must drop out of the squadron at the first opportunity.
Means you don't get free redistribution of hits, and knocks stealth and dodge out of the equation. Plus it's CQ checks to pick the right guy out of the flock.
The Hobbybox
Mongoose
Just thought I'd weigh in on this one, having read the rules Katadder kindly passed to me.
I don't like the sound of this idea at all!
Having had several games against Centauri in the past, my nightmare scenario for this rule would be 5-6 Vorchans in a hunting pack.
They have high speed and good range, and 12 double damage dice each!
In a low points value game I think this would break many forces.
I'm intent on playing a few games to test this rule out, but I think it's broken.
My only suggestion for a fix to it is actually pretty simple and rests on this phrase from the fluff:
I'd suggest that ANY Centauri ship can be placed in a Hunting Pack, and any ships in the Hunting Pack automatically get a free 45 degree turn.
This represents well drilled squadrons moving in, firing and moving away quickly.
I'd ditch all forcing opponent to roll against another squadron member stuff.
I don't like the sound of this idea at all!
Having had several games against Centauri in the past, my nightmare scenario for this rule would be 5-6 Vorchans in a hunting pack.
They have high speed and good range, and 12 double damage dice each!
In a low points value game I think this would break many forces.
I'm intent on playing a few games to test this rule out, but I think it's broken.
My only suggestion for a fix to it is actually pretty simple and rests on this phrase from the fluff:
I'd suggest that ANY Centauri ship can be placed in a Hunting Pack, and any ships in the Hunting Pack automatically get a free 45 degree turn.
This represents well drilled squadrons moving in, firing and moving away quickly.
I'd ditch all forcing opponent to roll against another squadron member stuff.
