Playing Dilgar? No luck yet! any ideas?

cthol24601

Mongoose
Hi I've been playing my Centauri with fantastic success against pretty much everyone with no fuss. Even in my 1 loss I gave a very good account of myself inflicting heavy losses.

However, I cannot seem to make my Dilgar work. I've had 3-4 games at raid level and just no luck. My only victory was an assanation mission in which I killed the Omega with a Targrath/ochliavata combo and was shot to pieces and only won because the target vessel was a level above raid and was thus at 3x points enough to cover the loss of my entire fleet.

So any ideas on using Dilgar would be most welcome. I just can't seem to make them work well besides a single suicide run. Unlike my centauri they don't seem to lend themselves to obvious tactics.

I have models for

4 Targrath
1 Tikrit
1 carrier
3 ochliavatas
1 mishakur
4 scoutships
8 thorun dartfighters
 
I know most of my recent writing have been about Drakh, but my first race was Dilgar.

I seem to have this overwhelming addiction to genocidal races starting with "D".

Dilgar tactics depend on targets --- do you have to take on an Interceptor, or not?

If not, it's really all about the bolter, and your best Bolter delivery platform, the Targrath. The Targrath is the heart and soul of most every current successful Dilgar assault; the ships are vile. I'm surprised that they haven't been singled out as much as the Sulust or Prefect; they are, indeed, really rough. We scaled them down in a recent campaign as they were just too much firepower. Targraths just walked all over things.

In this case, you need to think about a danger zone -- I'll call it the "CAF Zone". This is the 10" range area in the F arc of the Targrath. So, cut out 1/4 of a circle with a 10" radius. Now, take that circular section, and move it 6" away from the Targrath along the boresight. Note that area. Then slowly move it forward another 6". Anything that section covered while you were moving it the second 6" away is the CAF Zone. These are targets that Targraths can absolutely emliminate.

As this zone sweeps forward, notice that you darn near double the space you threaten. If the cone doesn't move, you can't. Note that .... it's important!

Now, take that piece of paper again, and some other miniature. Place it in the CAF Zone. Now, try this out --- how many ways can you place that second ship in the paper such that it can't get out of the area if it has an 8" move? How about 8" move with no special actions? 6" move?

You'll see that it takes some work to figure out how to do it! And that should illustrate that it's pretty rare to move into a CAF position with a single Targrath and have something else be unable to avoid the concentration. This means that if you need to CAF, you need to be able to either target ships that have already moved, or target ships that are really, really slow/have a No Special Actions crit.

Targetting ships that have already moved means you now need to initiative sink. The Ochliavita is a wretched choice for this, as its (admittedly, only 1 die) beam is boresighted, meaning it needs initiative sinks as well. Good news is, the other two light ships in the fleet are useful, if a little easy to kill.

The Omelos is an outstanding hull, and I recommend it thoroughly. It is a useful bombardment platform, meaning it can CAF with freedom at range, thereby giving the Targraths sinks to wait for unfortunate/unlucky ships to move, so they can try to deploy their CAF cones.

The Jashakar is a priority target to anyone, especially if it manages to succeed in a redirect (thereby CAFing any already unCAFed Bolters.). Without stealth to defend it, it's begging for trouble. But the redirect is so valuable to the Dilgar, that a Jashakar or two isn't necessarily a bad idea, even at Raid. And, of course, the initiative sink helps, too.

Jaskahars also give you an option to "lunge". If you All Power to Engines, the Targraths can leap 18", and with 10" of Bolter range, can leap into just about any beam ship's backyard in one turn. However, you don't get your CAF when you do this, making it a heavy price to pay. With Jashakars in the back, the scouts might generate the CAF effect for you with a firepower redirect, putting the beam ships in a bad quandary -- fire at the scout with the lock-on, or the ship menacing you right now?

Your heavy ships are abysmal. The Tikrit does get the Heavy Bolters, so your CAF cone on this is much harder to escape, granted. However, it actually has LESS total firepower than the Targrath. Skip it. The Garasoch is usually a waste of time and steel, unless fighting Pak'ma'ra (those Por'fa'tais need to die). The Wahant would be good, if its Bolters didn't slow-load (I'm still convinced this is a typo!). The Khatrik just doesn't cut it. The War-level ships are embarrassments never to be purchased, maybe not even in a campaign (even with the economic benefits of buying War hulls .... tragic).

Against interceptors, you have to set up your Bolters. Here, you need your Targraths to get to range 8, not 10. You desparately need to have a few interceptor dice sweep away the pulsars first, and only then fire the Bolters. Basic interceptor tactics --- fire any beams first, then the crap weapons, then get to the heavy interceptable weaponry. The EA Chronos is a bad nightmare, and might require an Omelos to further sink out the interceptor array.

At 5 raid, one recommendable fleet is:

2 Targrath
1 Ochliavita
2 Jashakar
4 Omelos

3 Targrath can be taken (skip an Ochliavita and an Omelos), but it's risky --- one Targrath may spend all of its time looking for someone to mug and never getting that target, especially when badly outsinked.

5 Battle fleet

6 Targraths (brutal when Pentaconed!)
2 Ochliavita
5 Omelos
2 Jashakar

Bad Mojito.

---- Brought to you by the letter "D".
 
Why does everyone ignore the Rohric? Ok, it's a tad on the slow side, but once it gets into battle, it's a hard ship to kill, being hull 6. The bolters on it tear ships a new one, and every game I've played, it's always been a Rohric or 2 that has turned the tide of battle into my favour.
 
TenaciousB said:
Why does everyone ignore the Rohric? Ok, it's a tad on the slow side, but once it gets into battle, it's a hard ship to kill, being hull 6. The bolters on it tear ships a new one, and every game I've played, it's always been a Rohric or 2 that has turned the tide of battle into my favour.

a tad on the slow side? the Chronos kill all it's mates, have a tea party, and lay a red carpet out while waiting for it to arrive ;-)
 
this is very true, but if everything arrives around the same time, it's a joy to wind up your Rohrics and just watch em kill things lol.
 
TenaciousB said:
Why does everyone ignore the Rohric? Ok, it's a tad on the slow side, but once it gets into battle, it's a hard ship to kill, being hull 6. The bolters on it tear ships a new one, and every game I've played, it's always been a Rohric or 2 that has turned the tide of battle into my favour.

The reason why people ignore the Rohric is because the Targrath is just so good.

If I am playing the creaping doom fleet - Rohrics, Kathrics, and Wahants, oh my, then I can see it. But if you are playing the fast ships, then its speed is an issue.


Dave
 
Tenacious:

You're exactly right about having everything arrive at the same time. It's pretty important; and if you take Rohrics backed by a Scout or two, you can still leap a bit (thankfully, the Heavy Bolter range is 15").

The problem I have with it is the easy with which it loses its second 45 degree turn. At speed 5, a -2 speed crit leaves you with 3", which isn't enough to get to your second turn (1 1/2 inches to first turn, and now you don't have a second 2" to get the next 45). The has led, for me, to some bad overfly moments where the Rohric in question can do nothing. There are an awful lot of -2 speed crits out there; you lose that second turn very, very fast (1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 for 25% of the crit-track).

There are also a few more specific limitations to the Rohric.

You almost just about MUST CAF with it against interceptors. You are far less likely to get the pulsars in range to help soak the interceptors for heavy weaponry, so you need your D-Torps to take the interception so the Bolters can get home with some repeated quality. This means you are very depended on "On" turns as opposed to "Off" turns.

There's no "Skirmish" Rohric which flies with it. That would certainly help and allow for some fleet creativity.

Finally, because the weapon systems are more evently distributed, you are much more succeptible to the GEG, but that's starting to be a minor gripe.
 
I also think the power is in the Pentacons when you run up with the speedy Gonzolez fleet of Jashakars, Targaths, and Omelos and you have several of them under Pentacon so then you force init sinks.
 
CZuschlag said:
Tenacious:

You're exactly right about having everything arrive at the same time. It's pretty important; and if you take Rohrics backed by a Scout or two, you can still leap a bit (thankfully, the Heavy Bolter range is 15").

The problem I have with it is the easy with which it loses its second 45 degree turn. At speed 5, a -2 speed crit leaves you with 3", which isn't enough to get to your second turn (1 1/2 inches to first turn, and now you don't have a second 2" to get the next 45). The has led, for me, to some bad overfly moments where the Rohric in question can do nothing. There are an awful lot of -2 speed crits out there; you lose that second turn very, very fast (1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 for 25% of the crit-track).

There are also a few more specific limitations to the Rohric.

You almost just about MUST CAF with it against interceptors. You are far less likely to get the pulsars in range to help soak the interceptors for heavy weaponry, so you need your D-Torps to take the interception so the Bolters can get home with some repeated quality. This means you are very depended on "On" turns as opposed to "Off" turns.

There's no "Skirmish" Rohric which flies with it. That would certainly help and allow for some fleet creativity.

Finally, because the weapon systems are more evently distributed, you are much more succeptible to the GEG, but that's starting to be a minor gripe.

Oh, I know the Rohric has its limitations, and you are exactly right about the 2nd turn, but from experience, the Rohric has done a hell of a lot more for me. For that reason alone, I have at least a few in every game I play. They are fantastic to just sit behind the rest of your fleet, and because the Targraths and Omelos' are taking the battle right to the enemy, the Rohric just slowly creeps up, and once it's in range, it provides excellent support, plus it's nice and strong to linger about a bit to cause frustration :wink: .

My main gripe is the fact that the Dilgar have been virtually ignored by players, mainly because (I suspect) other races seem to be getting a lot more support, which is a shame, because the Dilgar are a great race to play with.
 
TenaciousB said:
CZuschlag said:
Tenacious:

You're exactly right about having everything arrive at the same time. It's pretty important; and if you take Rohrics backed by a Scout or two, you can still leap a bit (thankfully, the Heavy Bolter range is 15").

The problem I have with it is the easy with which it loses its second 45 degree turn. At speed 5, a -2 speed crit leaves you with 3", which isn't enough to get to your second turn (1 1/2 inches to first turn, and now you don't have a second 2" to get the next 45). The has led, for me, to some bad overfly moments where the Rohric in question can do nothing. There are an awful lot of -2 speed crits out there; you lose that second turn very, very fast (1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-1, 3-2, 3-3 for 25% of the crit-track).

There are also a few more specific limitations to the Rohric.

You almost just about MUST CAF with it against interceptors. You are far less likely to get the pulsars in range to help soak the interceptors for heavy weaponry, so you need your D-Torps to take the interception so the Bolters can get home with some repeated quality. This means you are very depended on "On" turns as opposed to "Off" turns.

There's no "Skirmish" Rohric which flies with it. That would certainly help and allow for some fleet creativity.

Finally, because the weapon systems are more evently distributed, you are much more succeptible to the GEG, but that's starting to be a minor gripe.

Oh, I know the Rohric has its limitations, and you are exactly right about the 2nd turn, but from experience, the Rohric has done a hell of a lot more for me. For that reason alone, I have at least a few in every game I play. They are fantastic to just sit behind the rest of your fleet, and because the Targraths and Omelos' are taking the battle right to the enemy, the Rohric just slowly creeps up, and once it's in range, it provides excellent support, plus it's nice and strong to linger about a bit to cause frustration :wink: .

My main gripe is the fact that the Dilgar have been virtually ignored by players, mainly because (I suspect) other races seem to be getting a lot more support, which is a shame, because the Dilgar are a great race to play with.

I don't think people ignore them. I acutally strongly considered playing them in the next vassal tournament, but they lost the coin toss. :wink:


Dave
 
I think (I hope) that that will get cured soon. I have a guess we're going to be getting:

-- A Ton of Ochliavita Variants (Escort Variant, Bolter Variant, Command Variant, Light Carrier Variant, Laser Variant [this last one is very conjectural])

-- The new Thorun should be a dramatic improvement (I'm expecting the same as current, but DFR +2)

-- A Garasoch that doesn't s**k. I expect it to be a very early Fleet Carrier, no command, mind you.

-- Missiles (Read, Disruption Torpedoes) on the Tikrit. Might get a varient (doubt it.)

-- Lose some speed on the Targrath and Omelos (they are too fast, probably, and the Targrath is overgunned.)

-- Fast bolters on the Wahant

-- I have no idea what they're going to do for the Khatrik.

-- Mass Drivers firable at anything that has moved less than a certain actual distance (like 2" or so), not speed zero [some upgrade for Mass Drivers was mentioned in the sneak preview -- the only reason I am listing this entry at all.]

-- War hull complete redesigns (especially the woeful Mishakur.)

That's a lot of candy! Some folks will sit up and take notice. The suicide aux craft (probably bringing back the Delegor figure) will probably be a pretty marginal selection. But with all these toys on the way, I think our thoughts about lack of support for the Dilgar may go away.

And, of course, if anyone had stressed the Dilgar globally, I bet we would have gotten a tune on the Targrath <hide>. Listen to your local Centauri player about moans on the Beam Team. Or, at least, listen sarcastically.
 
Also keep in mind the Dilgar and or the Drahk are both additional purchases. All the other fleets are in the main book. That will strongly incline folks to picking up anything else first.

If you play with ISDs these are problematic ships to take. All it takes is one person in your group insisting and those races are trash.

The Dilgar at least are not seen in the show (fleet wise) so another less important strike against them.

I didn't pick up an EA fleet because they were getting love, I picked it up cause I love the EA from the show. And as yet have not picked up any of the 'new toys' so I think the screen time factor should not be poo poo'd too fast.

Ripple
 
TenaciousB said:
Why does everyone ignore the Rohric? Ok, it's a tad on the slow side, but once it gets into battle, it's a hard ship to kill, being hull 6. The bolters on it tear ships a new one, and every game I've played, it's always been a Rohric or 2 that has turned the tide of battle into my favour.
I took a 5 Rohric fleet in a Vassal tourney and it did pretty well (won every game bar one draw against Abbai). What the others are saying is right - concentration and timing of force is essential. The Rohric is slow and fairly long ranged so the speed is mitigated somewhat. The bonus fighters are nice too. However, careful deployment and tactics are required against more mobile enemies such as ISA. Here you need to angle them to simultaneously shoot the enemy advance and to cover each other once the enemy are amongst you.
 
Ripple:

Great points about screen time and the need to purchase the additional books. It's the same way with the Minbari-Earth war ships (almost never ever used).

I wonder then, to find a suitable comparison - I wonder how many pak'ma'ra fleet boxes have been sold per day since release, and if it is much higher than Dilgar and Drakh. If so, then we may have reason to percieve a slight or disdain for the two Evil D's.

Granted, that's probably a sales stat that Mongoose isn't exactly eager to post for the all world to see. Classified info, and all that.
 
Ripple said:
If you play with ISDs these are problematic ships to take. All it takes is one person in your group insisting and those races are trash.

I would suggest that anyone trying to insist on ISDs in general who KNEW someone played Dilgar or Drakh should be imeditately bludgeoned to death by several large narns with rocks rather than actually allowing one persons rules preference to completely exclude someones fleet from a campaign.
 
Narns use bats.

And I agree, the proper response to such an individual would be...


TrampTrampTrampTrampTramp
*Knock Knock*
---Hello?
WHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAMWHAM.
 
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