Plan Red

[cjcafiero]

I've been working on the ships never built or cancelled by the USN and RN as a result of the Washington Naval Disarmament Treaty...South Dakota's, Lexington's, N3, G3, etc...for playing a hypothetical "Plan Red" (US vs. UK) in the late 20's or early 30's...

I'll post some of my designs for review, comments, and suggestions!

 

[cjcafiero]

Maine class BB, hypothetical 8x18" BB designed during Great War, British influence...

South Dakota class BB, hypotetical 12x16/50 BB, basically a faster and heavier armed Colorado...

Lexington class "CC", not really a BC, hypothetical...two tyes 8x16" and 10x14", speed 33-35 knots with cruiser armor...

Colorado class (assumes the Washington was built)...

Tennessee class, as built 12x14/50"...

Also the New York, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and New Mexico classes as built, I'm assuming the earlier ships would have been retired with the new units taking their place, and given their limited military value.

Destroyer will be primarily Wickes type, maybe some Clemsons.

No Treaty Cruisers! A number of interesting fast cruiser designs were proposed, I'll probably pick a few...probably the actual light cruisers will be used.

I'll add some early carriers (Langley, maybe one Lex conversion or cruiser conversion...) and of course, the ever popular Dirigibles Macon, Akron, Shennandoah, and Los Angeles!

 

[cjcafiero]

Maine – class Battleship

Ships of this Class: Maine, Kearsarge, Oregon, Kansas

These huge vessels were part of a World War I design study that was never ordered and eventually supplanted by the South Dakota class. The Maine’s show a marked British influence, and might have been built in the absence of any disarmament treaties. These enormous ships violated a classic American design restraint by being unable to transit the Panama Canal.

Speed:4 in. Armor: 5+ Special Traits: Aircraft 3, Armored Deck,
Turning: 1 Damage: 45/15 Torpedo Belt
Target: 4+ Crew: 100/38 In Service: 1930

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (2x 18 in)42 2 4 Super AP
B Turret (2x 18 in)42 2 4 Super AP
X Turret (2x 18 in)42 2 4 Super AP
Y Turret (2x 18 in)42 2 4 Super AP
Secondary Armament 16 8 1 Weak
AA 6 4 -- --

Length: 800 feet (est.) Displacement:70,238 tons
Speed:21 kts. Crew: 2500[/size][/size]

 

[cjcafiero]

South Dakota – class Battleship

Ships of this Class: South Dakota, Montana, North Carolina, Iowa, Alabama, Massachusetts

Designed to be (at the time) the fastest and most powerful U.S. battleships afloat, the South Dakota’s featured a very powerful main armament of twelve 16 inch guns (of greater caliber and elevation than those used on the preceding Colorado class) and a protection scheme marginally improved over previous classes, but incorporating lessons from the Great War, as well as inspection of captured Imperial German vessels. Speed was improved by three knots over previous designs with a unique, trunked, single funnel located amidships. Canceled by the Washington Naval Disarmament Treaty with several units nearly a third complete, the guns were eventually transferred to various shore batteries, and the hulls expended as targets, the lessons being applied to the later North Carolina and South Dakota class fast battleships.

Speed: 5 in. Armor: 5+ Special Traits: Aircraft 2,
Turning: 1 Damage: 39/14 Torpedo Belt
Target: 4+ Crew: 85/30 In Service: 1924

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (3x 16 in)38 3 3 Super AP
B Turret (3x 16 in)38 3 3 Super AP
X Turret (3x 16 in)38 3 3 Super AP
Y Turret (3x 16 in)38 3 3 Super AP
Secondary Armament 14 6 1 Weak
AA 6 4 -- --
Port Torpedoes 8 3 4 AP, One-shot
Starboard Torpedoes 8 3 4 AP, One-shot

Length: 684 feet Displacement: 43,200 tons
Speed: 24 kts. Crew: 1191

 

[cjcafiero]

Lexington – class Battlecruiser

Ships of this Class: Lexington, Saratoga, Constellation, Ranger, Constitution, United States

Officially, these large, fast vessels were classed as “Cruiser, Capital” or “CC” to make clear that their role was not to stand in the battleline (where their cruiser-type armor would put them at a critical disadvantage), but rather to act as fast, powerful scouts for the battle fleet, as well as run-down enemy raiders. Cancelled by the Washington Naval Disarmament Treaty, Lexington and Saratoga were completed as carriers, and the others scrapped.

Speed: 6 in. Armor: 4+ Special Traits: Aircraft 2, Torpedo Belt
Turning: 1 Damage: 35/12 In Service: 1925
Target: 4+ Crew: 75/20

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (2x 16 in)37 2 2 AP
B Turret (2x 16 in)37 2 2 AP
X Turret (2x 16 in)37 2 2 AP
Y Turret (2x 16 in)37 2 2 AP
Secondary Armament 14 3 1 Weak
AA 5 3 -- --
Port Torpedoes 8 3 4 AP, One-shot
Starboard Torpedoes 8 3 4 AP, One-shot

Length: 874 feet Displacement: 44,638 tons
Speed: 33 kts. Crew: 1297

Note: An earlier alternative design, which replaced the main armament with five twin turrets of 14 in. guns (A,B,Q,Y,Z) was also seriously considered. This particular version was recast after experiences in the Great War. As these ships were never completed, player’s should feel free to experiment. Statistics for the 14 in. gun version would have the following main gun statistics:


Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (2x 14 in)35 2 2 AP
B Turret (2x 14 in)35 2 2 AP
Q Turret (2x 14 in)35 2 2 AP
X Turret (2x 14 in)35 2 2 AP
Y Turret (2x 14 in)35 2 2 AP

Speed increased to 35 knots (7 in.)
Armor decreased to 3+.

 

[cjcafiero]

Please feel free to comment, I'll try to figure out how to post "clean" PDF versions that are easier to read...and I'll add many more ships soon!

 

[Fitzwalrus]

Cool stuff... thanks for posting it! 8)

That whole hypothetical "no one's ever heard of the Washington Naval Treaty" idea for a mid-'thirties campaign has always attracted me. No (or very few) Carriers to steal the show, dirigibles for scouting, and BIG-gun ships as far as the eye can see. Sweeeeet....

Avalance Press has done a series of beautiful board games based on the various "what if" between-the-wars scenarios. They're pretty pricey but gorgeous to look at, and are basically a "Campaign in a Box" for the various themes they cover (including the '30's "Pacific Jutland" the Japanese and American battleship admirals were so convinced would have to be fought next time around, and using most of these ships you're posting.)

 

[Soulmage]

I would love to see what their expecatations were. Seems like those would be fun battles to fight using the VaS rules!

 

[cjcafiero]

I have the entire Avalanche "Warplan" line, and heartily recommend it, I've used some of it as a reference (I'll try to get around to posting my sources later).

Washington didn't stop WW2, but in the words of one historian, "...it may have prevented the Great Anglo-American war of 1928..."

The "Maine" represents a design study from the Great War that was passed over for the South Dakota's and is a very conservative design influenced by the British QE's and Revenge's...

The South Dakota's were, of course building, and later scrapped...they did mount a really nice 16"/50 cal gun!

The Lexington's were also building and are very interesting in that the navy took pains to NOT call them battlecruisers...facing the British G3 battlecruisers they are at a significant disadvantage. As scouts and cruiser killer's they excell...

The general thought behind the Anglo-American war plans was that a trade war would erupt somewhere eventually...plus the British at the time saw the US navy as its new competitor for world naval supremacy now that the German threat had been dealt with...some hysterical American naval officers practically looked at the British as race-traitors because they were (at this time) allied with the Japanese! Several of the US ships can be used in "Plan Orange" a hypothetical 1930's naval war with Japan as well...

The cruisers will be tough, no "heavy cruisers" or "treaty cruisers", and there were a wide variety of designs (for the Lex's and G3's to hunt down!)

Play around with the ships and give me some feedback!

Thanks!

 

[BuShips]

Many moons ago I scratch-built both the Japanese 1916 8-8 plan and the US 1918-1919 batch of warship 'heavy metal' for wargaming "The Pacific Jutland". I had contacted the Panzerschiffes guy and told him what I was doing, and he had me make up several models for him to make molds off of. He still sells them today. Although nowhere near the quality of GHQ, I'm still glad I made them. My own fleet is mostly hand made, since at that time no one sold them, heh.

I've got the #13-16's, Tosa (Kaga) BBs, Amagi BCs etc. and the fleet "second to none" with all four Colorados, six Lexingtons and six S. Dakotas. These are done to 1/2400 scale.

 

[Chernobyl]

GHQ has models for the never built USN Montana class, a successor to the Iowa class battleship.

4x 16" x3 turrets. would have been too wide for the panama canal though.

Chern

 

[DM]

G3 and N3 are being worked on for a future project. Here's the stats so far:

N3 Class Battleship

Ships of this class: St George, St David, St Andrew, St Patrick

Speed: 5”
Turning: 1
Target: 4+
Armor: 6+
Damage: 42/14
Crew: 67/22
Special Traits: Aircraft 2, Armoured Deck, Torpedo Belt, Radar after 1941
In Service: Not Completed

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (3 x 18 in) 42” 3 4 Super AP
B Turret (3 x 18 in) 42” 3 4 Super AP
P Turret (3 x 18 in) 42” 3 4 Super AP
Secondary Armament 16” 6 1 Weak
Port Torpedoes - 1 4 AP, Slow-Loading
Starboard Torpedoes - 1 4 AP, Slow-Loading
AAA 5” 12 -

Length: 815 ft.
Displacement: 48,000 tons
Speed: 23.5 kts.
Crew: 1680


G3 Class Battlecruiser

Ships of this class: Invincible, Indomitable, Inflexible, Indefatigable

Speed: 6”
Turning: 1
Target: 4+
Armor: 6+
Damage: 43/15
Crew: 67/22
Special Traits: Aircraft 2, Armoured Deck, Torpedo Belt, Radar after 1941
In Service: Not Completed

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (3 x 16 in) 36” 3 3 AP
B Turret (3 x 16 in) 36” 3 3 AP
P Turret (3 x 16 in) 36” 3 3 AP
Secondary Armament 16” 6 1 Weak
AAA 5” 12 -

Length: 862 ft.
Displacement: 48,400 tons
Speed: 32 kts.
Crew: 1680

 

[DM]

btw, have you read Norman Friedman's excellent design hostories of US battleships, cruisers and carriers. They go into considerable detail on the design studies of the 1920s and 1930s. I've not read those sections in much detail before (concentrated mainly on the built ships) so this would be a good excuse

 

[barakvarr]

There is an interesting section on Combined Fleet along these sort of lines:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/furamain.htm

The German players are sure to love the German battleship 'Fuhrer', though I think I'll stick with the G3's.

 

[Soulmage]

Panzerschiffe now has a Montana class BB too! Came in with my most recent order. . it is HUGE!!! Nicely detailed too!!

 

[cjcafiero]

N3 – class Battleship

Ships of this Class: St. Patrick, St. Andrew, St. George, St. Andrew

These large, powerful, battleships were basically identical to the earlier designed G3 battlecruisers, but added larger guns and heavier armor at the expense of speed. The design featured several unique features, including a large conning tower between the B and Q turrets, with the secondary armament concentrated aft. The turret arrangement was an attempt to balance the weight of the ships armor (in the case of the N3) or engines (in the case of the G3). The Washington Naval Disarmament Treaty brought an end to these ships before they were laid down, but a follow-up design, using similar features, was designated O3, and eventually built as the Nelson class, which suffered somewhat by comparison by trying to cram to much into a significantly smaller ship.

Speed: 5 in. Armor: 5+ Special Traits: Aircraft 2,
Turning: 1 Damage: 43/15 Torpedo Belt, Armored Deck
Target: 4+ Crew: 100/38 In Service: 1930

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (3x 18 in) 42 3 4 Super AP
B Turret (3x 18 in) 42 3 4 Super AP
Q Turret (3x 18 in) 42 3 4 Super AP
Secondary Armament 18 4 1 Weak
AA 6 4 -- --
Port Torpedoes 8 4 4 AP, One-shot
Starboard Torpedoes 8 4 4 AP, One-shot

Length: 815 feet Displacement: 48,000 tons
Speed: 24 kts. Crew: 1800

 

[cjcafiero]

G3 – class Battlecruiser

Ships of this Class: Invincible, Inflexible, Indomitable, Indefatigable

The battlecruiser version of the N3, these ships represented the apogee of British thinking in battlecruiser design and were fast, well-armed, and powerfully gunned. Unlike the battleship, the G3 traded gun power and some armor for greatly increased propulsion, though the two class were externally quite similar.

Speed: 6 in. Armor: 4+ Special Traits: Aircraft 2,
Turning: 1 Damage: 42/15 Torpedo Belt, Armored Deck
Target: 4+ Crew: 101/38 In Service: 1928

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (3x 16 in) 40 3 4 AP
B Turret (3x 16 in) 40 3 4 AP
Q Turret (3x 16 in) 40 3 4 AP
Secondary Armament 16 3 1 Weak
AA 4 4 -- --
Port Torpedoes 8 4 4 AP, One-shot
Starboard Torpedoes 8 4 4 AP, One-shot

Length: 862 feet Displacement: 48,400 tons Speed: 32 kts. Crew: 2000

 

[cjcafiero]

Colorado – class Battleship

Ships of this Class: Colorado, Maryland, Washington, West Virginia

The last American battleships designed during the Great War, these vessels commissioned into the 1920’s. The Washington Naval Disarmament Treaty led to Washington being expended as a target, but during the time-frame of PLAN RED these ships would still be very powerful, albeit slow, assets to the American battleline.

Speed: 4 in. Armor: 5+ Special Traits: Aircraft 3, Torpedo Belt
Turning: 1 Damage: 36/12 In Service: 1920
Target: 4+ Crew: 84/28

Weapon Range AD DD Special
A Turret (2x 16 in) 35 2 3 AP
B Turret (2x 16 in) 38 2 3 AP
X Turret (2x 16 in) 38 2 3 AP
Y Turret (2x 16 in) 38 2 3 AP
Secondary Armament 14 4 1 Weak
AA 6 4 -- --

Length: 624 feet Displacement: 39,400 tons Speed: 21 kts. Crew: 2100

 

[cjcafiero]

I'll finish up the rest of the USN battleline shortly...perhaps some one would like too take a stab at some U.S cruisers?

I envision adding the following units to the Royal Navy list for Plan Red:

Battleships: Queen Elizabeth (Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Barnham, Malaya, Valiant),

Royal Sovereign (Royal Sovereign, Royal Oak, Resolution, Revenge, +4 additional units?)

Battlecruisers: Hood (Hood, Anson?),
Renown (Renown, Repulse)

The British will have their "Glorious" type carrier conversions, and perhaps four more R type BB's built from the Dominion (Canada, Australia, India, etc...) They'll get an airship too

 

[BuShips]

DM, your N3 Class Battleship has a small typo as you just need to move your " mark just a bit more to the right :wink:

GHQ has models for the never built USN Montana class, a successor to the Iowa class battleship.

4x 16" x3 turrets. would have been too wide for the panama canal though.

Chern

For pics of the GHQ models, see http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=montana

There is an interesting section on Combined Fleet along these sort of lines:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/furamain.htm

The German players are sure to love the German battleship 'Fuhrer', though I think I'll stick with the G3's.

Be careful that you understand that any of the webpages under the "furashita" section of combinedfleet are an imagined history and take pieces of real fact and "what if" designs for their story. It's a fun thing to read but consider it as entertainment. Just remember to say "furashita" as if you are Japanese with a bad English accent (hint: as in "full of $h|ta") :wink: .