The Cheat
Mongoose
This is not intended as imflamatory or condecending: I fully support the job you've done so far and all the hard work you put into it, Babylon 5 would be a poorer place without you guys. However, we cannot help but notice several places with proof-reading errors, ommissions, or flat-out contradictions to the historically-deep Babylon 5 universe as it stands. I'm creating this thread as a resource for the much awaited 2nd Edition, in the hopes that we can fix what needs to be fixed.
Yes, I maintain a pro-AOG standpoint. However, I see no reason for any of the B5 licenses to be inconsistent with one another, particularly in the technological and strategic aspects AOG has written quite well and consistently.
)Most obvious is the Narn Biology section. You don't even mention the fact that Narns are marsupial, a constantly and consistently referenced detail from the show. I know you guys have already heard a lot about that, but it's on the list.
My copy also had several pages misorganized and out of order. Was this a common occurance?
)The Notes on the Minbari Military are quite frankly baffeling to me. I'd much rather had you guys explain (because JMS didn't do it that well) how and why a Military Caste exists (and ~30% of the population at that) when each caste controls 1/3rd of the battlefleet. I can only assume that there is a difference between official and actual ownership, as well as quality. How many auxillary roles do the Warriors preform for themselves (starship maintenance, weapons manufacture and testing, etc.) to keep their population busy, and how much do they delegate to the lesser worker caste? Perhaps the majority of the warrior caste population is actually ground pounders, with starship assignment as a prestigious posting?
I also noted that some of the early dates (rising to the stars through the first shadow war) seem highly compressed given the technological and terratorial advancement of the Minbari as a whole (even the War Without End proto-tinashi's seem to have gravitic drives).
)The Dilgar War: I was just honestly wondering why you guys changed the map (perhaps to show a more realistic developement of powers, the Torotha are in a horrible spot for their expansionist policies). Being different for the sake of difference seems quite odd to me, perhaps you had limited access to the Dilgar War book in order to properly compare the two?
Also, there's the issue with the art. Yes, you guys are making off quiet well by only using free, open-source images instead of contracting your own work. By why in God's name are you using pictures of the show-ship (which I personally believe was a one-off constructed by the Wind Swords as a gesture of alliance) in the Core Rules and the Earthforce Sourcebook when YOU YOURSELVES are making the AOG models for ACTA? It doesn't make any sense, you would have been better off omitting pictures entirely or showing clips of Jah'dur. Same goes for that craptastic Brakiri fighter in the core book over Faloskis or Pikitos.
Is there an issue with obtaining AOG-level art? There's still several good meshes based on their designs (particularly the Bin'Tak and the Balvarian, but I've seen Morshins and true Vorlon Dreadnoughts here and there).
)The Earthforce Rank Structure
This is the particular bedbug of mine. Almost every source (B5 Security Manual, The Earthforce Sourcebook of which I've only had a marginal look at, and in particular fan-internet sources) gets it wrong from the show. They seem to think it's a carbon copy of the US Rank system, complete with difference in Army and Navy. The show shows a far more integrated structure. Here is what I have from the show, complete with names an command position, with a little commentary.
O-1) Ensign: Now, as far as I know, we've never seen an ensign by name. However, it is a completely vital post that nobody can really get away from. There in, however, no need to make everybody (particuarly the bridge-crew of B5) officers, this isn't Star Trek. In fact, most of the technical and operational work in today's navy, even sensor operation on submarines, is done by enlisted men. However, there is obviously a large degree of education required to crew a starship. Most officers are also college graduates.
Examples: I'd suppose that Keffer might be one, but I can't recall him being named by rank. I seek to remember an ensign in A Call to Arms (the same woman who played the Excalibur doctor). We do know that low-level jobs, such as staffing the interceptor arrays and such, are preformed by warrent officers and chief warrent officers, as of AOGs Showdowns-2 fluff (he even got an honorary masters for an invention relating to his work, apparently you have to go back to the Earthforce Academy for officer training).
O-2) Lieutenant: Another obviously required post, and actually referenced in the show, this one usually requires management over enlisted personnel. There may be a separation in this class, along modern lines, in which case I'd suggest 1st and 2nd Lieutenant, just because it is so obviously cooler than that Navy "junior grade" schtuff.
Examples: From what I remember of the flashback episode (Path of Sorrow), Gideon was a lieutenant when he was leading the Marine detatchment and the repair team on the Cerberus. There's also Matheson, who seems like an incredibly inexperianced post to be XO on a ship as important as the Excalibur. Perhaps that's mearly Gideon's way of shortening "Lt. Commander"?
O-3/4) Lt. Commander: All the references in the show see this as an XO position, usually junior for a post like B5 (but then, so was Sinclair, and ship commanders appear to have unusual autonomy in picking their crew and XOs). Perhapse this is the minimum command rank for an Earthforce Escort Vessel, like Artemis's or Tethys's?
Examples: Ivanova. I'm sure we've seen others.
O-5) Commander: Commander is certainly a command rank, as well as an XO, and, while junior for a place like the Babylon 5 station, it is certainly shown in other parts of the fleet. It is apparently a good spot for a Dispatch Censor (Commander Devon McLevish, Showdowns-2). This may be the highest rank a Fighter-pilot can achieve, as a Commander: Air Group (CAG), before being transferred to ship command, of vessels like the Omega and Poseidon. I'd expect most would transfer after Lt. Commander, however, given that you can still recieve fighter-pay in other positions, as long as you keep re-qualifying (even from places like Captain and Chief of Security).
Examples: Sinclair, Ivanova. I remember several of the bit-part XOs being Commanders.
O-6) Captain: Ah, the rank we all know and love (and hate the Air Force and Army for making things confusing when they're temporarily on-board). This is the minimum required rank for important EA Units, like Warlocks, Explorers, and I'd assume sensitive and strategic craft like Oracles, Delphis, and Poseidons.
Examples: Sheridan, Ivanova (after her promotion to the Titans Warlock (damn they got those out quick), this may have been political but she's still a captain)
O-7) Major: And here's where everybody gets it wrong. Everyone assumes that major is a GROPOS rank, when both times we've seen one (War Without End, Severed Dreams, and in the unfilmed Crusade The End of the Line), he's been a primary command officer capable of ordering around important people, even captains. This is not a mid-level army rank. From what I can tell, it's analogous to Commodore, and these guys are usually acting as personal adjuncts to Generals. This may be the minimum rank for important Top-Secret Clearance (Ultraviolet, etc.), like the secret EA base where they build the Shadow-Hybrids and the Victory-analog.
Examples: Major Ryan (Severed Dreams), Major Lee (The End of the Line).
O-8+) General: About half of B5-related material gets this right, the rest call him Admiral. It is functionally equal to the modern Admiral, apparently all the way to the top, though we have no idea how many sub-ranks it has (this could be based like the current system, in which case 5). We've seen them commanding ships personally, but that's probably because EA inter-ship networking is much, much better than ours and a General can direct a fleet from the Captain's chair. The word "Flagship" means that there's one of these gus aboard, and there's probably one on every Posiedon (with the second C&C). However, most fleet commanders appear to be stationed on Omegas (probably the -Gamma model) because it's more combat-worthy.
It is apparently a fully-valid path of advancement for the GROPOS cadre, as well, given General Franklin, hero of Balos, but then I happen to believe that the above list of officers fully applies to all branches of Earthforce, things only splitting (due to perfectly distinctive set of expected roles) in the Enlisted/NCO area.
Examples: General Hague, General Leftcourt, General Franklin. There was also a russian General in command of the Earth Fleet in A Call to Arms.
O*) Admiral: We've only seen this rank once in fluff, and never in the show to my knowledge. Admiral Hamato led the entire Earthforce Expeditionary Fleet to invading the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and defeating the Dilgar. From what I can tell, Admiral is not a rank itself, but a job description: the ultimate leader of an entire Earthforce Fleet (and not just individual fleets/battlegroups, but the big organisation they come from). Much like Narn Warleaders (who are in charge of Gold, Blue, Black, Silver and Red Fleets), I'd expect that there are admirals for Colonial, Exploratory, Sol System Defense, and Patrol Fleets, as well as a new one being apointed each time a major war starts, like the Dilgar, Minbari, Civil, and Drakh Wars.
Examples: Admiral Hamato
There, done. Feel free to add to the list, the more we show here, the better 2nd Edition will be.
)One more question, since I don't have access to the Earthforce Campaign Guide: Was marriage between crew or officers covered? In the modern day, fraternization between ranks was uber verbotten, but such isn't the case in Earthforce, presumably to give the Earth soldiery a more sensical relationship for year-long cruises and build a tradition, as well as having 2 & 1/2 centuries to get the whole "Civil Rights" argument sorted out.
From Showdowns-3, we see that Earthforce has a convienient arrangement regarding dating (only while off-duty), as well as even marrying people on-board (even across-ranks, Chief Petty Officer William Relford and Sergeant Tanya Pethier). Married couples of course get their own quarters. Just thought I'd throw that one out there in case you guys didn't know. :wink:
Yes, I maintain a pro-AOG standpoint. However, I see no reason for any of the B5 licenses to be inconsistent with one another, particularly in the technological and strategic aspects AOG has written quite well and consistently.
)Most obvious is the Narn Biology section. You don't even mention the fact that Narns are marsupial, a constantly and consistently referenced detail from the show. I know you guys have already heard a lot about that, but it's on the list.
My copy also had several pages misorganized and out of order. Was this a common occurance?
)The Notes on the Minbari Military are quite frankly baffeling to me. I'd much rather had you guys explain (because JMS didn't do it that well) how and why a Military Caste exists (and ~30% of the population at that) when each caste controls 1/3rd of the battlefleet. I can only assume that there is a difference between official and actual ownership, as well as quality. How many auxillary roles do the Warriors preform for themselves (starship maintenance, weapons manufacture and testing, etc.) to keep their population busy, and how much do they delegate to the lesser worker caste? Perhaps the majority of the warrior caste population is actually ground pounders, with starship assignment as a prestigious posting?
I also noted that some of the early dates (rising to the stars through the first shadow war) seem highly compressed given the technological and terratorial advancement of the Minbari as a whole (even the War Without End proto-tinashi's seem to have gravitic drives).
)The Dilgar War: I was just honestly wondering why you guys changed the map (perhaps to show a more realistic developement of powers, the Torotha are in a horrible spot for their expansionist policies). Being different for the sake of difference seems quite odd to me, perhaps you had limited access to the Dilgar War book in order to properly compare the two?
Also, there's the issue with the art. Yes, you guys are making off quiet well by only using free, open-source images instead of contracting your own work. By why in God's name are you using pictures of the show-ship (which I personally believe was a one-off constructed by the Wind Swords as a gesture of alliance) in the Core Rules and the Earthforce Sourcebook when YOU YOURSELVES are making the AOG models for ACTA? It doesn't make any sense, you would have been better off omitting pictures entirely or showing clips of Jah'dur. Same goes for that craptastic Brakiri fighter in the core book over Faloskis or Pikitos.
Is there an issue with obtaining AOG-level art? There's still several good meshes based on their designs (particularly the Bin'Tak and the Balvarian, but I've seen Morshins and true Vorlon Dreadnoughts here and there).
)The Earthforce Rank Structure
This is the particular bedbug of mine. Almost every source (B5 Security Manual, The Earthforce Sourcebook of which I've only had a marginal look at, and in particular fan-internet sources) gets it wrong from the show. They seem to think it's a carbon copy of the US Rank system, complete with difference in Army and Navy. The show shows a far more integrated structure. Here is what I have from the show, complete with names an command position, with a little commentary.
O-1) Ensign: Now, as far as I know, we've never seen an ensign by name. However, it is a completely vital post that nobody can really get away from. There in, however, no need to make everybody (particuarly the bridge-crew of B5) officers, this isn't Star Trek. In fact, most of the technical and operational work in today's navy, even sensor operation on submarines, is done by enlisted men. However, there is obviously a large degree of education required to crew a starship. Most officers are also college graduates.
Examples: I'd suppose that Keffer might be one, but I can't recall him being named by rank. I seek to remember an ensign in A Call to Arms (the same woman who played the Excalibur doctor). We do know that low-level jobs, such as staffing the interceptor arrays and such, are preformed by warrent officers and chief warrent officers, as of AOGs Showdowns-2 fluff (he even got an honorary masters for an invention relating to his work, apparently you have to go back to the Earthforce Academy for officer training).
O-2) Lieutenant: Another obviously required post, and actually referenced in the show, this one usually requires management over enlisted personnel. There may be a separation in this class, along modern lines, in which case I'd suggest 1st and 2nd Lieutenant, just because it is so obviously cooler than that Navy "junior grade" schtuff.
Examples: From what I remember of the flashback episode (Path of Sorrow), Gideon was a lieutenant when he was leading the Marine detatchment and the repair team on the Cerberus. There's also Matheson, who seems like an incredibly inexperianced post to be XO on a ship as important as the Excalibur. Perhaps that's mearly Gideon's way of shortening "Lt. Commander"?
O-3/4) Lt. Commander: All the references in the show see this as an XO position, usually junior for a post like B5 (but then, so was Sinclair, and ship commanders appear to have unusual autonomy in picking their crew and XOs). Perhapse this is the minimum command rank for an Earthforce Escort Vessel, like Artemis's or Tethys's?
Examples: Ivanova. I'm sure we've seen others.
O-5) Commander: Commander is certainly a command rank, as well as an XO, and, while junior for a place like the Babylon 5 station, it is certainly shown in other parts of the fleet. It is apparently a good spot for a Dispatch Censor (Commander Devon McLevish, Showdowns-2). This may be the highest rank a Fighter-pilot can achieve, as a Commander: Air Group (CAG), before being transferred to ship command, of vessels like the Omega and Poseidon. I'd expect most would transfer after Lt. Commander, however, given that you can still recieve fighter-pay in other positions, as long as you keep re-qualifying (even from places like Captain and Chief of Security).
Examples: Sinclair, Ivanova. I remember several of the bit-part XOs being Commanders.
O-6) Captain: Ah, the rank we all know and love (and hate the Air Force and Army for making things confusing when they're temporarily on-board). This is the minimum required rank for important EA Units, like Warlocks, Explorers, and I'd assume sensitive and strategic craft like Oracles, Delphis, and Poseidons.
Examples: Sheridan, Ivanova (after her promotion to the Titans Warlock (damn they got those out quick), this may have been political but she's still a captain)
O-7) Major: And here's where everybody gets it wrong. Everyone assumes that major is a GROPOS rank, when both times we've seen one (War Without End, Severed Dreams, and in the unfilmed Crusade The End of the Line), he's been a primary command officer capable of ordering around important people, even captains. This is not a mid-level army rank. From what I can tell, it's analogous to Commodore, and these guys are usually acting as personal adjuncts to Generals. This may be the minimum rank for important Top-Secret Clearance (Ultraviolet, etc.), like the secret EA base where they build the Shadow-Hybrids and the Victory-analog.
Examples: Major Ryan (Severed Dreams), Major Lee (The End of the Line).
O-8+) General: About half of B5-related material gets this right, the rest call him Admiral. It is functionally equal to the modern Admiral, apparently all the way to the top, though we have no idea how many sub-ranks it has (this could be based like the current system, in which case 5). We've seen them commanding ships personally, but that's probably because EA inter-ship networking is much, much better than ours and a General can direct a fleet from the Captain's chair. The word "Flagship" means that there's one of these gus aboard, and there's probably one on every Posiedon (with the second C&C). However, most fleet commanders appear to be stationed on Omegas (probably the -Gamma model) because it's more combat-worthy.
It is apparently a fully-valid path of advancement for the GROPOS cadre, as well, given General Franklin, hero of Balos, but then I happen to believe that the above list of officers fully applies to all branches of Earthforce, things only splitting (due to perfectly distinctive set of expected roles) in the Enlisted/NCO area.
Examples: General Hague, General Leftcourt, General Franklin. There was also a russian General in command of the Earth Fleet in A Call to Arms.
O*) Admiral: We've only seen this rank once in fluff, and never in the show to my knowledge. Admiral Hamato led the entire Earthforce Expeditionary Fleet to invading the League of Non-Aligned Worlds and defeating the Dilgar. From what I can tell, Admiral is not a rank itself, but a job description: the ultimate leader of an entire Earthforce Fleet (and not just individual fleets/battlegroups, but the big organisation they come from). Much like Narn Warleaders (who are in charge of Gold, Blue, Black, Silver and Red Fleets), I'd expect that there are admirals for Colonial, Exploratory, Sol System Defense, and Patrol Fleets, as well as a new one being apointed each time a major war starts, like the Dilgar, Minbari, Civil, and Drakh Wars.
Examples: Admiral Hamato
There, done.
Feel free to add to the list, the more we show here, the better 2nd Edition will be.)One more question, since I don't have access to the Earthforce Campaign Guide: Was marriage between crew or officers covered? In the modern day, fraternization between ranks was uber verbotten, but such isn't the case in Earthforce, presumably to give the Earth soldiery a more sensical relationship for year-long cruises and build a tradition, as well as having 2 & 1/2 centuries to get the whole "Civil Rights" argument sorted out.
From Showdowns-3, we see that Earthforce has a convienient arrangement regarding dating (only while off-duty), as well as even marrying people on-board (even across-ranks, Chief Petty Officer William Relford and Sergeant Tanya Pethier). Married couples of course get their own quarters. Just thought I'd throw that one out there in case you guys didn't know. :wink:
