Placement of Firezone?

[Bede]

Can you really place the fire zone anywhere?

If that's so, then isn't it too easy to kill the leaders and special weapons?

 

[Captain_Nemo]

You can place the FZ anywhere but the casualties get taken off beginning the guy that is closest to the shooting unit.

There's a better explanation with pictures in the rulebook.

 

[Bede]

Right, but if I can place the fire point right on top of the leader, or the guy with the RPG, then he'll always be the closest, right?

 

[The Old Soldier]

First you must have LOS to the unit your targeting.

Then you place the centre of the FZ where you wish so that at least one model of that unit is under the radius of the FZ, BUT you must have LOS to the spot you are targeting on the ground or model in that unit.

When you roll damage dice against the unit you apply dice from the closest to your unit in the FZ and work your way back.

 

[Bede]

First you must have LOS to the unit your targeting.

Then you place the centre of the FZ where you wish so that at least one model of that unit is under the radius of the FZ, BUT you must have LOS to the spot you are targeting on the ground or model in that unit.

When you roll damage dice against the unit you apply dice from the closest to your unit in the FZ and work your way back.

Ok. I see where I had it wrong. I thought the first die was applied to the model closest to the fire point, not closest to the firing unit. Thanks.

 

[cordas]

You still can do your sniping tactic by placing the FP 6" behind the required target so that that model is the closest one to the shooting unit, but be aware that any figures that can't get LOS to the FP can't shoot, and that other guys in the squad who are in front of the target then grant obscurement to those behind in the FZ.

 

[retaf33c]

...and that other guys in the squad who are in front of the target then grant obscurement to those behind in the FZ.

Are you sure about this? I thought this was true only if they are in different squads. I don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember it said that squad members in a unit do not block line of sight to others in the same unit. Doesn't this hold true for obscurement also?? If a target doesn't get obscurement when shooting through your own troops, I would think your models would not get obscurement from models in the same unit when being shot at.

I personally don't like the FZ placement to allow a squad to function somewhat as snipers to pick off leaders and gunners, without actually having any snipers. Unfortunately, I was informed that the rules allow it.

 

[Paladin]

Are you sure about this? I thought this was true only if they are in different squads. I don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember it said that squad members in a unit do not block line of sight to others in the same unit. Doesn't this hold true for obscurement also?? If a target doesn't get obscurement when shooting through your own troops, I would think your models would not get obscurement from models in the same unit when being shot at.

I think the concept is that as a cohesive unit you will shift/kneel/whatever to allow your buddies LOS while firing. You can't yell and tell the enemy to give you the same benefit.

 

[Paladin]

I personally don't like the FZ placement to allow a squad to function somewhat as snipers to pick off leaders and gunners, without actually having any snipers. Unfortunately, I was informed that the rules allow it.

Agreed. But it won't happen as often as you'd expect. Targetting leaders in this manner normally leaves you open to more Reaction fire than you want to deal with. Unless the target is a small unit, you are often better off going for higher casualty numbers/pushing toward the break point than attempting to drop the leader and hoping to gain an advantage next round. If you're in Cover and have other units that will be joining in the attack then, go for it.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

not to mention supressing the squad, which is damned important.

 

[Bede]

Agreed. But it won't happen as often as you'd expect. Targetting leaders in this manner normally leaves you open to more Reaction fire than you want to deal with. Unless the target is a small unit, you are often better off going for higher casualty numbers/pushing toward the break point than attempting to drop the leader and hoping to gain an advantage next round. If you're in Cover and have other units that will be joining in the attack then, go for it.

That's only the case if the leader is literally the last guy in the rear of the unit. If he's in the middle then you'll still get all the guys behind him in the FZ.

 

[Bede]

Are you sure about this? I thought this was true only if they are in different squads. . .

I think what it says is that models in your own squad don't block LOS or obscur.

But enemy models do block LOS or obscure.

Now if enemy models do block LOS, rather than just obscure, that would perhaps be a way of preventing at least some of the sniping. If you put the leader in the middle or rear of the unit, then the firer wouldn't be able to see past the models in front of him to put the FP down in a manner that would catch the leader as the closest model to the firer.

Or, if enemy models just obscur, but don't block LOS, then at least you're making it harder to hit the leader because he'll get a +1 to his target/kill numbers.

Either way, it seems to me that it's a "no brainer" to always try to snipe the leader. If he dies, the unit's immobile for the entire next turn. You can then just keep pounding away at it and it can't shoot back.

This also applies to heavy weapons. Tanks will always be targetting so as to get that Fedayeen with the AT weapon.

I also don't particularly like this, but that's what the rules say.

 

[Paladin]

not to mention supressing the squad, which is damned important.

Sort of. They are "Out of Command" rather than Suppressed which means they can "Shoot" as a reaction rather than just move. They just lose their ability to make 2 actions on their turn. But that is of definite importance, as you said. 1 incoming shot vs. 3 = good. I only mention it, because it's a rule easily missed.

 

[cordas]

Are you sure about this? I thought this was true only if they are in different squads. I don't have my rulebook handy, but I seem to remember it said that squad members in a unit do not block line of sight to others in the same unit. Doesn't this hold true for obscurement also?? If a target doesn't get obscurement when shooting through your own troops, I would think your models would not get obscurement from models in the same unit when being shot at.

I think the concept is that as a cohesive unit you will shift/kneel/whatever to allow your buddies LOS while firing. You can't yell and tell the enemy to give you the same benefit.

I believe its enemy models that are inside the fire zone that don't block LOS or grant obscurement, but any enemy models that are outside the FZ can grant these bonuses, afterall you are trying not to hit them but shoot the guys behind them.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Keep it simple. As long as you have LOS to at least 1 enemy model in that unit, you can place the centre where you want, that you have LOS to and catches at least one enemy model in the FZ.

Enemy models can block line of sight and to make it simple I use the base of the model to see it the models behind can be seen.

Remember you still have to place DD on the models closest to the firing unit and work back. If the enemy leader is in the back, and IF you somehow have LOS to him, you would have to place that FZ 6" behind him to make sure he was the one closest to the firing unit. In my games that seems to be near impossible in most cases, and then not very effective. Since most likely you would cause reaction fire that would put a world of hurt on you. Play the game some more, most of this situations will never come up, and when they do, it will not amount to much.

Now real snipers, or units with snipers can be another story..........

 

[retaf33c]

Remember you still have to place DD on the models closest to the firing unit and work back. If the enemy leader is in the back, and IF you somehow have LOS to him, you would have to place that FZ 6" behind him to make sure he was the one closest to the firing unit. In my games that seems to be near impossible in most cases, and then not very effective. Since most likely you would cause reaction fire that would put a world of hurt on you. Play the game some more, most of this situations will never come up, and when they do, it will not amount to much.

This is true if the unit shooting at you is directly in front of you. If you are off at angles it really isn't that hard. It is especially easy if you have terrain that allows you to elevate your shooters so they have LOS to a spot behind the unit you are shooting at. We play with a lot of elevated terrain. I play MEA and at 1000pts I'm fielding 5 units of troops at least 10 strong between regular infantry and Fedayeen. In addition I have 9 technicals on the table, believe me it isn't that hard to get angles or elevation and place FZ in such a way that the leader or gunner is close to if not the closest model in the FZ. I don't really worry much about return fire since I make sure to maximize cover and since heavies can reaction fire, most return fire can't roll more than a 6. And since Technicals can't be suppressed, I try to use them first to make my opponent use his reaction.

For my regular troops, early in the game, I use the Extreme Range rule. Because it takes a ready to reach me, I don't have to worry about return fire since I will be out of range. Sure I have to reroll hits, but when rolling 10 or more dice from a 12 man squad of MEA Infantry, all I normally need is one or two hits to get the guy I'm after. Odds are I will get it.

This does more psychological damage than anything else. Nobody wants to fight an army that outnumbers them when one or two units are forced to do nothing for one turn because they lost their leader.

 

[cordas]

Remember you still have to place DD on the models closest to the firing unit and work back. If the enemy leader is in the back, and IF you somehow have LOS to him, you would have to place that FZ 6" behind him to make sure he was the one closest to the firing unit. In my games that seems to be near impossible in most cases, and then not very effective. Since most likely you would cause reaction fire that would put a world of hurt on you. Play the game some more, most of this situations will never come up, and when they do, it will not amount to much.

Now real snipers, or units with snipers can be another story..........

Imagine, my technical comes cround a corner and spotting a full squad of PLA infantry decides to hoy on anchors and open up with its MG. Its currently obscured (partly hidden behind a wall) so it has a target of 7+. The PLA are in such a position that the PF-89 gunners are at the rear of the squad.... Now I can place my FZ to the side and back abit so that only the RPG gunners and a couple of rifle men are in the FZ.....

In this position where would you place the FZ? These situations won't occur in every battle but I would imagine similar ones will occur often enough to warrant an explanation as to how they will work.

 

[retaf33c]

Imagine, my technical comes cround a corner and spotting a full squad of PLA infantry decides to hoy on anchors and open up with its MG. Its currently obscured (partly hidden behind a wall) so it has a target of 7+. The PLA are in such a position that the PF-89 gunners are at the rear of the squad.... Now I can place my FZ to the side and back abit so that only the RPG gunners and a couple of rifle men are in the FZ.....

In this position where would you place the FZ? These situations won't occur in every battle but I would imagine similar ones will occur often enough to warrant an explanation as to how they will work.

I do this quite regularly using Technicals to flank units. This is why my group has come to hate Technicals. More often than not, by the second turn, I will have one or more Technicals in my opponent's deployment zone. While he is dealing with it, the rest of my army is advancing under cover.

I've used this trick so often, that they now will leave them in their transports and try to use the same tactics to take out my gunners before I can take out the transports. For now that hasn't worked.

 

[The Old Soldier]

retaf33c, Maybe using a set of command model rules would help. Allowing the junior leaders to take command when the sgt. is killed. (as long as they are in range, or in the same group. I voiced that opinion a few months back.

 

[cordas]

I do this quite regularly using Technicals to flank units. This is why my group has come to hate Technicals. More often than not, by the second turn, I will have one or more Technicals in my opponent's deployment zone. While he is dealing with it, the rest of my army is advancing under cover.

Depending on the cover available on the board I coupld stop that fairly easy I am sure... 8) Mind you I could also take an armoured company of my EFTF and laugh at you (well untill your Feds and RPG gunners got close)