Pimp my Ranged Combat

[Clovenhoof]

Ranged Combat Rules - revisited

Why? -- because Ranged Combat is not really effective in Conan, and burning a lot of feats for getting a few shots in before melee starts is hardly worth the while.
Besides, the rules for weapon classification are in no way realistic. For example, if you can shoot one type of medieval bow, you can shoot any other type as well, and longbows are very well suited for long range combat.
So I am trying to make ranged combat more effective, and at the same time more realistic WITHOUT making it more complicated.

How?

Changes to Projectile Weapons:

Sling: Martial Weapon. Requires one hand to shoot. Requires a Free Action to reload. (Historically, slingers were reputed for firing faster than archers.) Full Strength bonus applies.
Damage: d8 for leaden bullets, d6 for rocks of appropriate size.

Crossbows: Simple Weapons. You point them at the target and pull the trigger. Require both hands to shoot and a Full Round Action to reload.

Bows: Martial Weapons. Bow type determines only base damage and range increment, provided it is used to shoot an arrow of matching weight. Typically, Longbows have lower damage but reach further then Recurve bows. Crit rating and Armour Piercing depends on arrowhead, which can also modify the range.

Hunting Bow
This relatively short bow is useful for the hunt, and as such typically used at point blank range. It is easy to transport and relatively robust. It does not suffer from moisture as long as bow and string are kept well oiled and waxed. A variation of the hunting bow is also used in war by many races.
Martial Weapon. d10 Damage, 80ft range increment

Reflex Bow
This very short bow is made from laminated horn and sinew, and packs a very powerful punch, but is somewhat inaccurate at long ranges. Due to its construction, it must be kept dry or it will fail.
Martial Weapon. d12 Damage. 100ft range increment

Longbow
This man-sized bow is more accurate and potent than the hunting bow, and equally robust and unsusceptible to moisture. However, due to its large size it is rather unwieldy and can be uncomfortable to transport.
Martial Weapon. d10 Damage. 120ft range increment.

Arrows: each bow requires arrows specifically made for its strength rating and draw length.
Arrows that are made for a lower strength rating - i.e. thinner, lighter shafts - may shatter upon release, and the bow may also take damage. Successfully launched arrows are also less accurate.
Heavier arrows do not damage the bow, but decrease the range increment by 10ft per Strength point difference, and apply an additional -1 penalty for every range increment beyond the first.
Note: these rules should not be actively _used_ mechanically, the message simply should be: DON'T use arrows not made for your bow.

Arrowheads: there are different types, each dedicated to a specific purpose. Historically, there are several hundred different shapes, but most of them fit into one of these categories:

- "Standard" describes a variety of metal arrowheads that are about half an inch wide at the widest point, and effective against small game and lightly armoured opponents.
- "Broadhead" is a dedicated hunting tip, a razor-sharp, inch-wide triangular blade that tears terrible wounds. It can penetrate thick hide but is not very effective against metal armour.
- "Bodkin" is a long, slender arrowhead of hardened steel, designed specifically to pierce even heavy armour. Due to the small cross section, it does not cause as severe wounds as a winged or flanged arrowhead.

Broadhead, crit 18-20/x2, AP 1**
Generic, crit 19-20/x2, AP 3**
Bodkin, crit x3, AP 6**

** AP drops by 1 at every full range increment.

So much for equipment -- now for mechanics:

Feats:
Ranged Combat basically needs a lot of feats and still isn't very effective, because it is very difficult to reach the massive damage threshold.

Let's look at the feat chains and then see how they can be altered:

Point Blank Shot
-Far Shot
-Precise Shot
--Improved Precise Shot
--Ranged Finesse
-Rapid Shot

Point Blank Shot
Current: +1 at <30ft
It's okay as a prereq feat.

Far Shot
Current: increase range increment
This can stay as it is.

Precise Shot
Current: ignore -4 penalty when firing into a melee
Proposal: permit Ranged Finesse (see below)

Ranged Finesse
Current: totally useless feat
Change: not a feat anymore. Any character with Precise Shot will automatically attempt Finesse attacks. If his attack roll exceeds the target's Defense+DR, the entire DR is ignored. If the attack roll just hits, Armour Piercing rules apply as usual.

Improved Precise Shot
Current: ignore anything but total cover.
Evaluation: essentially, this feat means you can hit a Diminutive (+4) or even Fine (+8 ) target as if it was a Medium sized target. Thus, it should also be no problem to hit a very small vulnerable spot of an armoured opponent.
Proposal: Improved Precise Shot allows you to ignore cover as usual, and if the target does not have cover, you may ignore its DR instead.

Rapid Shot
Current: one extra attack, all attacks are at -2 penalty.
Evaluation: in D&D, this is the equivalent to Two-Weapon Fighting. In Conan, TWF does not incur a -2 penalty if the off-hand weapon is light.
Proposal: grant one extra attack at full attack bonus and no penalty at all.

Ranged Attack Penalties, Moving Targets etc.

- The standard range penalty of -2 per range increment applies.
- hitting a target moving at an angle relative to the arrow's flight path incurs a cumulative -2 penalty for every 30' the target moves that round.
- Since arrows are well visible in flight, a target creature that is aware of the attack may drop prone to gain a +4 dodge bonus IF the archer is at least one full range increment away at the time of the attack. (The arrow is too fast to react in time at shorter ranges, though normal Dodge Defense applies)

Balance Check

Now with these changes, ranged combat should become somewhat more potent. Let's check the new situation:

- Ranged Combat now becomes feasible for more characters, not just for certain races or the Barbarian and Soldier classes.
- It is also much easier to bypass armour now. With just two feats you have the chance to ignore DR for any shot if you roll well enough.
- if you accept the Improved Precise Shot change, you can even ignore any armour by default -- it's basically just a stringent exploitation of the feat. Though Plate Armour with Great Helm should not be bypassed that easily. All in all, I just don't like how the feat works to begin with.
- With the new Arrowheads, you should be able to score a lot of crits, especially in combination with Improved Critical. That way, you should be able to cause Massive Damage a lot more often, which should end the pincushion syndrome.

- If you think bypassing DR is too easy now, keep in mind there is no such thing as Power Attack for Ranged Weapons, and a normal hit adds only 1x Str, instead of 1,5x for Two-Handed melee weapons, so Ranged damage will always be more limited than Melee damage.
However, here is an alternative that may also be worth considering:
Feat: Called Shot
As the ranged equivalent to Power Attack, you can take a particularly risky shot, and get a +1 damage bonus for each -1 Attack penalty you take, up to your BAB. This is not compatible with Ranged Finesse. Normal AP rules apply. If you fail your attack roll, you miss completely.
Note: I like Ranged Finesse better than this variant.

Impact on Tactics

Before, you may have felt inclined to just ignore an enemy archer and go for the "dangerous guys" first. Now the archer IS a dangerous guy. There now may be a greater need for manoeuvres like Overrun, order to take out the archer(s).
A double move covers 60ft in one round. Don't head straight for the archer but zig-zag a bit, so the archer takes a -4 penalty to his shots (see "moving targets"). RUNning, on the other hand, does leave you flat-footed, but since the attacker gets a total -8 penalty if you move at an angle, it may be worth it, especially for low-levels.
Also, the Fleet-Footed feat may gain more popularity.

Alright, that's as far as I got. Thoughts and feedback?

 

[Trodax]

Hmmm, interesting. In a way I do like the distinction with Shemite, Stygian, Bossonian and Hyrkanian bows, gives flavour I think. On the other hand, I do think that it is a little bit too restrictive to require Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use them effectively (it basically means that only characters of those races and level 7 barbarians are archers). I do like that you're making the hunting bow more powerful; it needs it.

I'll have to think about your proposed rule changes, for now I only have some comments on the feats:

Precise Shot
Current: ignore -4 penalty when firing into a melee
Proposal: permit Ranged Finesse (see below)

Ranged Finesse
Current: totally useless feat
Change: not a feat anymore. Any character with Precise Shot will automatically attempt Finesse attacks. If his attack roll exceeds the target's Defense+DR, the entire DR is ignored. If the attack roll just hits, Armour Piercing rules apply as usual.

I like it. The Ranged Finesse feat as written is indeed completely useless and needs fixing, this is one way to do it. I also like that you let normal AP rules apply even if the finesse attack fails, that's definitely the way to do it.

Improved Precise Shot
Current: ignore anything but total cover.
Evaluation: essentially, this feat means you can hit a Diminutive (+4) or even Fine (+8 ) target as if it was a Medium sized target. Thus, it should also be no problem to hit a very small vulnerable spot of an armoured opponent.
Proposal: Improved Precise Shot allows you to ignore cover as usual, and if the target does not have cover, you may ignore its DR instead.

This I think is too much. Completely ignoring DR is very powerful, and with your arrow-rules I think everyone with this feat will always use broadhead tips.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Improved Precise Shot doesn't allow you to ignore size modifiers (if that is what you're saying).

Rapid Shot
Current: one extra attack, all attacks are at -2 penalty.
Evaluation: in D&D, this is the equivalent to Two-Weapon Fighting. In Conan, TWF does not incur a -2 penalty if the off-hand weapon is light.
Proposal: grant one extra attack at full attack bonus and no penalty at all.

I think this might be too powerful as well. No penalty will mean that every archer will definitely want this feat. It is true that TWF does not incur a penalty, but in that case you are effectively giving up something else (the protection of a shield or the damage of a two-hander). Don't know, though; if you really want to make archery more powerful it might work.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thanks for your input. I'll give you more time to look at the other changes.

This I think is too much. Completely ignoring DR is very powerful, and with your arrow-rules I think everyone with this feat will always use broadhead tips.

Yeah, no kidding. As I said, I don't like IPS as it is, and taking it to this extent is probably way too much.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Improved Precise Shot doesn't allow you to ignore size modifiers (if that is what you're saying).

Well, it doesn't say so, but think about it.
I am quoting from the SRD now:

Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus [read: Defense] granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment.

The rules say that normally, cover gives a +4 Defense bonus, but under special circumstances larger bonuses may be in order ("improved cover", +8). IPS lets you ignore even the +8 bonus from improved cover.

Effectively, what you are doing when you attack a target with cover, you are attacking a smaller-sized target (namely the visible portion). The IPS feat would - technically - allow to shoot at no penalty if just the nose of an enemy poked around a corner. Of course this is totally off. The feat needs to be fixed a bit.

Here is what I propose:

>>>
Improved Precise Shot
Prereqs as usual
Benefit: our ranged attacks ignore 4 points of Defense bonus granted to targets by cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. That is, normal cover does not provide any bonus, and the bonus of improved cover is reduced by 4.
Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.

In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.
<<<

Of course, this is a nerf rather than a boost. If we want to give this feat a little more benefit, we might allow it to also ignore a Shield bonus the target might have, at least within the first range increment.

 

[Spectator]

Thanks Clovenhoof,
I always thought the Conan Ranged Weapons stuff was really underpowered on any creature with 3 HD or more.
Let's keep working on this.
I do agree, Improved PRecise Shot ignoring all armor maybe a little too much. I thinkn the Dude with 12 AP from plate mail, would throw the dice in your face and kick you in the stomach if you wer his GM, lol.
But lets try and balance out ranged combat.

 

[Clovenhoof]

More thoughts:
Improved Critical
If you take the Improved Critical feat, it may be required to chose the feat by arrow type, not by bow type, simply because it's the arrow that has the crit rating, not the bow. So you'd chose IC either for Normal, Bodkin or (most likely) Broadhead arrows.

" Faeg i-varv di na lanc a nu ranc."
Their armour is weak at the neck and beneath the arm

Moving Targets
Going strictly by the rules, the phased combat system would mean that an archer on his action only ever has still targets, because everyone makes their complete move during their action. This is an abstraction and should be mended in ranged combat.
Proposal: if the last thing the target did on its own action was moving (i.e. not attacking or the like), the target counts as moving target for the archer.

Shot on the Run
I currently lent away my Pocket edition, and my 1st Printing is filled with errors so I'm not sure. Borderer is listed as gaining Shot on the Run, but it is not in the feat list.
Anyway, if the change hasn't been made anyway, I don't see why Shot on the Run should be a feat when Attack on the Run is not. Let them do either for free. Give the Borderer-Archer Precise Shot at level 5 instead.

FYI, here are some pictures of typical arrow shapes.

Bodkin: G-11, G12
Broadhead: A-3, G-16, other wide tips
Normal: most of the rest

Let's play around with the numbers a bit, to see if we're overdoing it already.

Let's compare a mid-level (11) archer with DEX 22 and STR 18 and d10 bow to a THW fighter with STR 22 and DEX 18 and a 2d8 weapon. Let's say they are a Borderer and a Barbarian.
Both have fighter-type classes and thus BAB +11. Both have their attacks at +17/+12/+7, plus possible bonuses.
Both might wear a (superior) Chain shirt with steel cap for DR 6. Barb has +1 DR.

Borderer Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Critical: Broadhead Arrow
Defense: Dodge 21
Bodkin: d10+4, x3, AP 10
Normal: d10+4, 19-20/x2, AP 7
Broadhead: d10+4, 15-20/x2, AP 5

Barbarian Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Fleet-footed, others.
Defense: Dodge 21
Melee: 2d8+9, x3, AP~11

I was going to write up a mock fight between these two, starting at 100ft distance, but what it essentially comes down to is initiative:
- If the Archer gets to shoot first (his Ini mod is slightly higher), he can get four arrows on the way (Rapid Shot). If he rolls high enough and crits, he has a good chance to force a Massive Damage save.
- If the Barb gets to act first, he can simply run all the way to the Archer in a straight line. He's flat-footed but can cover the entire distance on his action, ending up right next to the Archer.
-- then the Archer might take a 5'-step (to avoid drawing an AoO) and again pepper the Barb with another 4 arrows, this time at point blank. Now he has made a total of 8 attacks before the Barb had a chance to react.

Note that Barbarians (and Pirates) will have Uncanny Dodge and thus do not suffer from being flat-footed due to running. All other classes will have a DV of 10 at this time and thus be an easy mark (but then again, other classes would have used a different approach and not run up to the archer in a straight line).

--- if the Barb survives this far, he can get in his attacks. If the Barb is smart, he'll first attempt to Sunder the bow. Since the bow is not a melee weapon, this does not draw an AoO (unless the archer has Improved Unarmed Strike perhaps), and is resolved as "strike an object". The bow will most likely be destroyed. Imagine the rest.

So, it's kinda difficult to predict what happens. The Archer has a certain chance to cause massive damage, but his very best chance for that is in the first round.
To quote any German Army instructor: "He who shoots faster and hits better has usually won."

What lessons do we draw from this example, if we want to build a combat-worthy archer?
1.) Take Improved Unarmed Strike, so you threaten adjacent squares even when wielding your bow. That way, if someone tries to destroy your bow, kick him in the groin. If you hit, that disrupts his attack.
2.) Since your opponent is likely to have more than one melee attack, consider taking Combat Reflexes to answer each and every Sunder attempt with a kick in the crown jewels.
3.) Take Quick Draw, so when you are approached in Melee, you can on your action take a 5'-Step, fire your arrows, drop the bow and draw your Melee weapon (likely an Arming Sword) as free actions.
4.) Take Fleet-Footed at least once, so you can move out of harms way, and your opponent wont be able to catch up with you unless he also has FF.

That's FOUR non-archery combat feats just to keep your archer from being shreddered in melee. Unless you are a Soldier, you probably cannot spend that many slots so you will have to make a choice.

 

[Trodax]

OK, here's some more feedback for ya'!

>>>
Improved Precise Shot
Prereqs as usual
Benefit: our ranged attacks ignore 4 points of Defense bonus granted to targets by cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. That is, normal cover does not provide any bonus, and the bonus of improved cover is reduced by 4.
Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.

In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen.
<<<

Of course, this is a nerf rather than a boost. If we want to give this feat a little more benefit, we might allow it to also ignore a Shield bonus the target might have, at least within the first range increment.

One idea would be to include the ability to perform ranged finesse with Improved Precise Shot instead of with Precise Shot (I've always thought PS was a pretty good and useful feat as written anyway). Or you could just make a new feat that includes the rules for IPS and ranged finesse (it doesn't have to be a continuation of PS, and I also don't really see why the BAB +11 prereq is necessary).

Then you'd have:

Precise Shot: works as normal.

Improved Precise Shot/Called Shot/Accurate Shot/Whatever
Prereqs: ?
Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore 4 points of Defense bonus granted to targets by cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. That is, normal cover does not provide any bonus, and the bonus of improved cover is reduced by 4. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.
Any character with this feat will also automatically attempt Finesse attacks. If his attack roll exceeds the target's Defense+DR, the entire DR is ignored. If the attack roll just hits, Armour Piercing rules apply as usual.

Broadhead, crit 18-20/x2, AP 1**
Generic, crit 19-20/x2, AP 3**
Bodkin, crit x3, AP 6**

and

More thoughts:
Improved Critical
If you take the Improved Critical feat, it may be required to chose the feat by arrow type, not by bow type, simply because it's the arrow that has the crit rating, not the bow. So you'd chose IC either for Normal, Bodkin or (most likely) Broadhead arrows.

Regarding arrow tips... I don't know anything about real world archery, but are the tips really that important? With your rules, a character with a hunting bow and bodkin arrows can be quite dangerous to armoured oppponents, and I've seen this more as a "longbow-thing". I think I'd prefer if the crit range and AP was tied to the bow instead and then you could have arrow tips grant a small modifier (broadhead +1 damage, -2 AP; bodkin -1 damage, +2 AP, for example). In fact, I sort of feel that keeping track of different sorts of arrows might be a bit too detailed for the sword & sorcery feeling (I'm sure the Conan tales never mentioned different arrow tips at least). That's just a personal preference, though.

Also, I definitely don't like choosing Improved Critical based on arrow tip; that just feels weird. Even if you do use the arrow tip rules, there's nothing that precludes you from having IC tied to the bow (you'd just double the crit range for whatever arrow you were using at the moment).

Oh, one more thing; if your campaign sees a decent amount of armoured foes, I think the bodkin arrow might be a bit too powerful as compared to the generic version (remember that crit ranges 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 are equal when it comes to damage dealt over time).

Shot on the Run
I currently lent away my Pocket edition, and my 1st Printing is filled with errors so I'm not sure. Borderer is listed as gaining Shot on the Run, but it is not in the feat list.
Anyway, if the change hasn't been made anyway, I don't see why Shot on the Run should be a feat when Attack on the Run is not. Let them do either for free. Give the Borderer-Archer Precise Shot at level 5 instead.

Shot on the Run is indeed a feat included in the Atlantean edition. I totally agree with you that it could be easily removed.

-- then the Archer might take a 5'-step (to avoid drawing an AoO) and again pepper the Barb with another 4 arrows, this time at point blank. Now he has made a total of 8 attacks before the Barb had a chance to react.

Note that, in Conan, you still draw an AoO if you take a 5'-step and then fire a bow ("if the 5' step is followed by an action that would normally draw an AoO, the 5' step draws an AoO" is basically the rule). This is a major difference from D&D and adds to making ranged combat not-so-powerful.

Note that Barbarians (and Pirates) will have Uncanny Dodge and thus do not suffer from being flat-footed due to running. All other classes will have a DV of 10 at this time and thus be an easy mark (but then again, other classes would have used a different approach and not run up to the archer in a straight line).

Just a note; characters with the Run feat are also not flat-footed.

 

[Ichabod]

Wow, you really come up with some complicated ideas to fix the game. I'm a rules lite kind of dude, so I can't buy into a lot of this sort of stuff, but I feel compelled to say something anyway since I've spent a decent amount of time on the ranged combat "problem".

First, why do you care if ranged combat is weak? At first, I was pretty annoyed as there seemed to be no way to win - either give up on ranged combat and be just like everyone else or keep pretending there's a feat combination that will make archery effective. But, then I thought about it and realized that I don't really want archery to be that effective in Conan.

It's possible to make archery cool in fantasy, but I have my doubts about it being good enough without completely warping combat such that you lose the savage melee action. I have a character who is a waste, but if finesse fighting, which shouldn't suck as much as it does when you don't have a bunch of sneak attack, wasn't so bad, it would probably be fine.

But, let's say you still want to make it better (probably not in the party's interest, by the way*). I can't stand a bunch of recordkeeping, so I couldn't imagine worrying about what sort of arrow tips someone has; I can barely get motivated to keep track of how many total arrows someone has.

* Our party has gotten brutalized by enemies with arrows. In numbers, sniping to where you can actually use Ranged Finesse, a force can do a heinous amount of damage to a party that isn't heavily armored. This was even without sneak attack. While PC archers have a fundamental problem in that they are in limited numbers, NPCs hordes have volume going.

People here have often said that the AP's seem too low for bows. I don't see it making a whole lot of difference, but you could easily futz around with AP's, even make them ridiculously high. The reality is is that you don't do enough damage to threaten anyone of midlevel or higher anyway, so it doesn't matter if you do a few points more of damage. I don't find the idea that IPS would allow ignoring armor that impressive. The requirements for IPS are ridiculous and that tank with the 12 points of armor should be high enough level that taking some damage from arrows means basically nothing.

Nor do I find anything exciting about taking away the Rapid Shot penalty, at least if you figure your PC is the only one using it. Until you do a real amount of damage, i.e. kill things in one shot, a PC is just taking up space in combat. It might be pretty brutal for NPC bands to get free Rapid Shots, though.

Upping damage in combination with a bunch of other stuff may get a PC archer over the hump, but then, you might just annihilate a party with enemy archers and you may make it too desirable to do archery to where it ceases to feel like Conan.

Putting aside that I see combat as just an exercise in who forces the most MDS's, the obnoxious thing about ranged combat (and a lot of other things) is how many more feats it takes to do things than Power Attack + Cleave. I don't need to see focussed archer PCs, but it would be nice to be an ARCHER when you sink feats into it. I'd do something like give Precise Shot all of the IPS abilities. I'd turn Shot On the Run, which blows for PCs in general, into a combat maneuver. Point Blank Shot and Far Shot get merged into "I Know How to Use a Bow, Feat #1". And, so forth. Make all of these junky individual feats with excessive requirements into feats with some flexibility if not magnitude of strength.

Even if you find a way to sink half a dozen feats into archery, PCs shouldn't be so narrow. Your barbarian above has "others" for feats.

Or, you could just ban Power Attack and Cleave and neuter sneak attack and see what happens.

 

[Trodax]

I can't stand a bunch of recordkeeping, so I couldn't imagine worrying about what sort of arrow tips someone has; I can barely get motivated to keep track of how many total arrows someone has.

Yes, this is pretty much how I feel about the arrow tip issue as well.

I don't find the idea that IPS would allow ignoring armor that impressive. The requirements for IPS are ridiculous and that tank with the 12 points of armor should be high enough level that taking some damage from arrows means basically nothing.

Yeah, those prereqs do mean that we are talking about pretty high levels for IPS, true. Completely ignoring armour without any drawback or penalty (such as that you have to roll high enough for a finesse attack) means that it won't matter at all whether your opponent has armour or not, though. I don't know, I kind of dislike that; it's cool being lethal against opponents in armour, but I think you should always be more lethal against folks without it (if you understand what I mean).

Upping damage in combination with a bunch of other stuff may get a PC archer over the hump, but then, you might just annihilate a party with enemy archers and you may make it too desirable to do archery to where it ceases to feel like Conan.

I completely agree; you don't want to take this too far. In fact, I've seen archery be quite decent in my game - had a PC Bossonian soldier who occasionally was pretty scary with his bow. What bugged me mostly was that he was so utterly useless when he didn't have his Bossonian longbow handy (since hunting bows are so very, very weak).

I'd do something like give Precise Shot all of the IPS abilities. I'd turn Shot On the Run, which blows for PCs in general, into a combat maneuver. Point Blank Shot and Far Shot get merged into "I Know How to Use a Bow, Feat #1".

Nice ideas. Shot on the Run should definitely go, I agree. Maybe Far Shot too; I don't think it's an all that useful feat. Perhaps you could merge into PBS as Ichabod suggests, or you could transform it into racial abilities to make up for the fact that the previous "archery-races" are loosing out a little by your changes (with Hyrkanians gaining the best far-shooting ability, of course).

 

[Clovenhoof]

Aaah, more feedback, thanks guys.

Improved Precise Shot/Called Shot/Accurate Shot/Whatever
[...]If his attack roll exceeds the target's Defense+DR, the entire DR is ignored. If the attack roll just hits, Armour Piercing rules apply as usual.

Hum well, firstly, I don't think you should lower the prereqs for IPS, because then the Borderer-Archer will get the feat later than any other character could have it, and I think that doesn't feel right.
Secondly, whether you lower the prereqs or not, it's another feat to burn (for non-Borderers) until you get into the area of Ranged Finesse, so you need at least three feats to do something a Melee fighter can do at no cost.

Regarding arrow tips... I don't know anything about real world archery, but are the tips really that important?

They pretty much are. For normal field target competition, you have small tips designed _not_ to damage the target more than necessary. For the bow hunt, you have formidable razorblades. And the historical Bodkin was designed specifically to counter armoured opponents.

Here is a modern hunting broadhead:

Can you imagine what that kind of tip does to living tissue? oO

However, your points do have merit.
A longbow probably launches faster than a shortbow (it's hard to verify because nobody makes shortbows anymore), but a recurve bow launches faster than a longbow - about 20% difference in fact, if both are of good quality. But we also have the AP rating to play with.

I think I'd prefer if the crit range and AP was tied to the bow instead and then you could have arrow tips grant a small modifier (broadhead +1 damage, -2 AP; bodkin -1 damage, +2 AP, for example).

I like this idea. Question is if we can incorporate different crit stats with this method. The bow as such should have no impact on the crit rating. Let's see what I can make of it:

Hunting Bow - d10 x3, AP2, 80ft
Longbow - d10 x3, AP5 , 120ft
Rider Bow - d12 x3, AP4, 100ft

Now the broadhead might either simply make more damage (I'd say at least +2 to make it worthwhile), or it could extend the threat range by +1, but applied _after_ other threat extenders like Improved Critical, which you'd again choose for the bow, not the tip.

(remember that crit ranges 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 are equal when it comes to damage dealt over time).

They are not entirely equal. For very high DR ratings, x3 is better, namely when the DR is high enough to soak most of the doubled damage. That won't be the case often in Conan, though.
Also, the Massive Damage rules can shift the weight again -- if you manage to exceed 20 points with a x2 multiplier, then scoring more of those is better than a few x3 hits. Except if the target has very high Fort saves... so they are not equal, but they are probably balanced.

Shot on the Run is indeed a feat included in the Atlantean edition. I totally agree with you that it could be easily removed.

Consider it done.

Note that, in Conan, you still draw an AoO if you take a 5'-step and then fire a bow ("if the 5' step is followed by an action that would normally draw an AoO, the 5' step draws an AoO" is basically the rule). This is a major difference from D&D and adds to making ranged combat not-so-powerful.

Aaaah so here we go. I tried to look it up in the book but didn't trust my first printing. So I resorted to a D&D FAQ and that clearly stated you avoid AoOs with 5' steps followed by other actions.

Well then... if we want to make Ranged combat more powerful, we'd also have to un-nerf this nerf. But let's see what Ichabod has to say to the matter at hand.
Besides, this is one of these quantum-state rules again that we discussed in another thread before. I can take a 5'-step and not draw an AoO, but if I then decide I use the rest of my action to shoot an arrow, the step retroactively draws an AoO from an opponent that cannot even reach me at the time I decide to shoot? That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

Just a note; characters with the Run feat are also not flat-footed.

Good point.

Wow, you really come up with some complicated ideas to fix the game.

If the ideas are to complicated, they need to be simplified. So thanks for your input. I can see that splitting up the stats between weapon and projectile seems complicated, so I am taking up Trodax' suggestion and work with modifiers instead.

In D&D, an archer carries around a lot more ammo types, like +4 arrows, bludgeoning arrows, flaming arrows and whatnot. So keeping track of three arrow types should be manageable.

I thought about it and realized that I don't really want archery to be that effective in Conan.

I can see your point. There can and probably will be a lot more NPC archers than PC archers. Getting peppered by a hundred arrows is not much fun if you can only return 4 or 5 shots.

So that's a valid argument against buffing up ranged combat. Still, if a player wants to make an effective archer, it should be possible somehow.

People here have often said that the AP's seem too low for bows.

I don't think they are, even by standard rules. Arrows were not all _that_ effective against metal armour as they are claimed to be. Most arrows just bounce off a well-made armour. Famous victories of longbow archers against armoured knights usually have more to do with the horses being shot rather than the riders, let alone other factors like environment, discipline etc.
Still, a Bossonian Longbow with high strength rating can penetrate quite a bit of armour, so I don't see the AP values being too low at all.

The requirements for IPS are ridiculous and that tank with the 12 points of armor should be high enough level that taking some damage from arrows means basically nothing.

Whether IPS is very useful in its current state or not, the requirements aren't _that_ bad, unless you play low-powered characters that can't easily reach Dex 19
Maybe 12 points of damage as such aren't lethal, but if the denial of DR results in a MDS, that's a totally different story.

Putting aside that I see combat as just an exercise in who forces the most MDS's

Yeah, that's exactly the point. If archery is supposed to be effective, you must enable the archer to exceed the MDT more often. By the current rules, it is almost impossible to cause a MDS with ranged attacks.
With a 19-20x2 bow, you roll threats 10% of the time, but probably confirm the crit only half of the time, and even if you do, the average damage roll will usually not exceed 20 points, especially after deducting DR.
With a x3 bow, you have a better chance to exceed the MDT, but score a threat only 5% of the time, and again have a risk not to confirm.

Besides, faciliating Ranged Finess or other ways of ignoring DR probably is in the interest of the party. Most PCs - at least in my group - by far prefer light armour. Whether they deduct 0 or 2 or 4 points as DR doesn't make that much of a difference. NPC mooks and thugs don't mind getting bogged down by heavier armour. Denying them their 6-8 points of DR is a totally different story and works in favour of the PCs.

 

[Trodax]

Hum well, firstly, I don't think you should lower the prereqs for IPS, because then the Borderer-Archer will get the feat later than any other character could have it, and I think that doesn't feel right.
Secondly, whether you lower the prereqs or not, it's another feat to burn (for non-Borderers) until you get into the area of Ranged Finesse, so you need at least three feats to do something a Melee fighter can do at no cost.

Ah, that is true. Maybe not such a good idea then.

Now the broadhead might either simply make more damage (I'd say at least +2 to make it worthwhile), or it could extend the threat range by +1, but applied _after_ other threat extenders like Improved Critical, which you'd again choose for the bow, not the tip.

+1 threat range to a x3 critical is pretty powerful and might be hard to balance properly. My advice is to leave the threat range alone (just use x3 or 19-20/x2 for all bows, whichever you prefer), and just modify damage and AP instead.

(remember that crit ranges 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 are equal when it comes to damage dealt over time).

They are not entirely equal. For very high DR ratings, x3 is better, namely when the DR is high enough to soak most of the doubled damage. That won't be the case often in Conan, though.
Also, the Massive Damage rules can shift the weight again -- if you manage to exceed 20 points with a x2 multiplier, then scoring more of those is better than a few x3 hits. Except if the target has very high Fort saves... so they are not equal, but they are probably balanced.

Yes, that is true; they are not equal. What I meant is that they are roughly balanced just as you say (while 18-20/x2 is simply better).

 

[Axerules]

I also think ranged weapons were to weak in the rules. But I didn't want to make them too powerful or too complicated. I added 2/3 to the AP of the bows/crossbows to make them more effective.
I also altered Ranged Finesse. It has exactly the same effect in my games as in your fix, Clovenhoof ! But the difference was that I made it a combat maneuver (with Precise Shot as prerequisite), so it can be used only once per round.
Perhaps I will now use three different arrowsheads...

 

[Clovenhoof]

Re Threat Range. What makes a Threat Range? I'm trying to find the proper threat characteristics for the various bows.
In D20 SRD, all bows always have x3. (Crossbows have 19-20/x2 in D&D and plain x2 in Conan). Why?

To sum up more common denominators -- I'm sure you all know that, it's just to recap:
- sword-like blades of any size have 19-20/x2
- heavy blades, typically on long hafts, have x3
- weapons that concentrate their power on a small point, like warhammers, spears and pikes, have x3 as well.
- long and slender, but seriously curved blades have 18-20/x2

The last point seems easiest to explain: a curved blade will have a smaller section to impact on the target, and an identical force applied to a smaller surface means more pressure (which is true in theory).

The main distinguishing point between swords and axes seems to be controllability. A nicely balanced sword in the right hands is simply more controllable than a front-heavy axe. Thus, it is easier to hit where it hurts (19-20), though a heavy axe blade has more follow-through (x3).

Similary, while a slashing blade may cut deep into the flesh, increasing the chance of hitting at least some arteries (19-20), a deep piercing thrust either hits something vital or it doesn't, but if it does, it will cause severe damage to internal organs (x3).

So, let's go back to the bows: arrows clearly do piercing damage, and may hit important organs or just get stuck in the flesh, so x3 seems to be the only proper choice for any bow.
(I'm not discussing the crossbow any further here, because I have removed them from my game and thus don't need to worry about them. If I had them, I'd just leave them at x2 anyway.)

Alright, now I guess that is settled... and I can go back to ponder about the desired effects for Bodkins and Broadheads.

Bodkins: -1 damage, +2 AP.
This means the arrow will be less effective against lightly armoured foes (no armour or armour pierced even with normal arrow). It is more effective against foes with heavy armour. I advise against a larger damage penalty than -1 because then you may end up penetrating the armour and still doing less damage than with a normal arrow.

Broadheads: +2 damage , -2 AP (minimum 1)
Of course this will be the prime choice of archers that have a good chance to Finesse, or if fighting unarmoured foes. The question is whether +2 damage make any real difference in the game (granted, on a crit it's +6), but a bigger damage bonus would negate the AP penalty too much.

 

[rgrove0172]

Im all for modifying the ranged combat rules to make archery more effective but once the new rules extend past a short paragraph, I lose interest. The fix has to be short, easy to implement and very concise. I dont think the entire system has to be revamped, just a modifier here or there should be enough, dont you think?

 

[Clovenhoof]

The final result should be short and concise, but in order to get there, you have to look at various ideas and consider their impact on the game, how they will affect tactics and playing style.

If you look at the currently proposed modification, it's not at all complicated:

Ranged Finesse is now much easier to handle. The rule for it melted down from half a page to a few lines, and is largely analogous to melee finesse.

Replacing 1 universal and 4 regional bows by 3 generic bow types also rather streamlines things. Even if you factor in the modifiers for the two special arrowheads, you are still at a total of five lines, just as before.

Oh and you may rule that a 5'step never provokes an AoO, even if followed by another action.

That's basically all of the Crunch you need. Other rules like "moving targets" are more or less optional (and work against the effectiveness of archery anyway). The paragraph about arrows having to match bow strength is "just" about realism. Same applies for the Rider Bow being susceptible to any kind of moisture, though that can also serve as a balance factor, and I like the flavour of every bow having its own specific drawback.

 

[Krushnak]

how about making powerattack and cleave work for ranged combat? eg:

combat manoeuvre: powershot . prereqs, power attack and point blank shot.( bows, slings and thrown only)
for every point of BAB you give up you gain +1 damage aslong as the target is within the first range increment. applies to all attacks that round.

cleave: if using a ranged and your attack kills the target then the missile travels through the victim and in a direct line away from the shooter striking the next person or object in it's path.

for powershot you could also include it for crossbows but you would have to preset the penalty and bonus on the x-bow itself when its made. also if some one is using powershot with a bow you may want to impose a check of say 5-10% chance of the bow breaking each round its used.

as for AP i think its fine. yeah the hunting bow isnt great at taking down heavily armoured foes, guess what its made for hunting not killing knights. a str bonus of +2 for a shemite or hyrkanian bow is penetrating chain which is going to be pretty much the best armour you'll get in those areas. as for the longbow its going through chain hell easy and if the pc gave his character a str of 16 or 18(i know i would and i use the heroic stat generation) the only thing he wont be getting through is plate armour and that is pretty historically accurate and only at low lvls, by lvl 10 he could be picking of knights with no problem.

in short give your archers higher strength scores, historically they werent weedy little guys(especially the english longbowmen) and it means you can hold your own in melee.

 

[Clovenhoof]

"Powershot":

I thought about Ranged PA before but came to the conclusion that it doesn't work. Here is why:

If you define "Powershot" as a particularly mighty shot with lots of muscle behind it: that doesn't work. A bow only has a certain draw weight at a certain draw length. In the game this is represented by its Strength rating. A bow cannot launch an arrow faster no matter how much stronger the archer is. The draw length is adjusted to the archer as well (usually between 28" and 30"). The arrows are also made specifically for the required draw length. You cannot draw out 30" if the arrow is only 28" long.
Even if you take a longer arrow for a longer draw, the difference cannot physically exceed a few inches. Your arms are only that long. And these few inches mean just a few pounds. For example, my own bows are rated at 55 lbs at 28". My draw length is around 29". The effective pull at this draw length is maybe 60 lbs. That's no big difference to the standard value.

So if you want to keep it at least halfway realistic, the only way to increase the power of an arrow is to fire it from a stronger bow (provided you are strong enough, of course), and the only way to do more damage is using a different arrowhead. Trust me on this. So this approach doesn't work.

Now maybe you could define this "minus BAB, plus damage" trick as a "called shot" to a vulnerable area, as I have mentioned in the first post. You try to hit a small spot (like the heart) so you take a penalty to BAB and gain damage output.
The problem with this is: if you shoot at the heart in real life, and miss barely, you still hit the body and deal normal damage. If you use the Power Attack mechanism, if you fail your attack roll you miss the target entirely. This all-or-nothing approach is not realistic either.
If you said, however, that a "near miss" still deals normal damage if the arrow would have hit without this "called shot", the archer will always announce maximum penalty and lose nothing. So that's not a good idea.

But there is something else you could do in order to make bows a bit more powerful:
Allow the maximum Strength rating to be 1,5x the Str modifier, just like a two-handed weapon. After all, you wield a bow in both hands, and you use the muscles of both arms to pull bow and string apart. The left arm doesn't do as much work as the right arm (for a normal right-eyed archer), that's why you only get 0,5x Str extra.

Cleave: that's a cute idea, wouldn't break the game I think. But the arrow would do less damage. If it hit the armour in front (deducting DR), it would also have to penetrate the armour in the back (deducting the same DR again). And then the armour of the second target (new DR). I doubt there would be any significant damage left to deal. So this seems to be mostly flavour.

 

[rgrove0172]

Id be interested in a quicky 1,2,3 type ruling wherein

1 - damage modifier to increase lethality of archery
2 - penetration modifier to bring their effectiveness into more realistic terms
3 - Feat modification or what not to improve use in combat

 

[Clovenhoof]

Id be interested in a quicky 1,2,3 type ruling wherein

1 - damage modifier to increase lethality of archery

Max Strength rating be 1,5x Str mod (and apply 1,5x Str mod).
(and introduce Arrowhead modifier if you want to).

2 - penetration modifier to bring their effectiveness into more realistic terms

The current AP rating _are_ relatively realistic, and certainly not underdone.
(Again, if you want more, I advise to introduce Bodkins)

3 - Feat modification or what not to improve use in combat

- Ranged Finesse as always-on mode if you have Precise Shot., as described above.
- 5ft step not to provoke AoO.

I don't think it can get any quicker and easier than that.

 

[Axerules]

I see a little problem with the 1.5X strength modifier.

Allow the maximum Strength rating to be 1,5x the Str modifier, just like a two-handed weapon. After all, you wield a bow in both hands, and you use the muscles of both arms to pull bow and string apart. The left arm doesn't do as much work as the right arm (for a normal right-eyed archer), that's why you only get 0,5x Str extra.

This homerule (as well as the explanation) only relates to archery. But what about the other ranged weapons ? I know you don't use crossbows/arbalests (to which no STR modifier is applied) in your setting, but in Hyboria they exist. And you certainly didn't discarded javelins or disallowed your players to throw daggers at their opponents.

Those weapons still need a fix and would be really underpowered if you compare them to bows with 1.5X STR mod. I don't mean that a javelin should be as lethal as a Bossonian Longbow, but if thrown weapons/crossbows totally suck it's a little bit annoying...

That's why I still think that adding 2/3 to AP scores is an easier fix.

 

[Clovenhoof]

It's true, 1,5x Str can only apply to bows. But I think that's not unfair because bows are also the most expensive ranged weapons.

Slings only apply single strength rating. Hey, they are darned cheap and you always apply your true strength rating at no extra cost. How much performance do you expect at no cost?

For crossbows, the damage is already increased because you use a full round, i.e. 6 seconds, to load it, so its bow can be stronger. The ideal crossbow would be so strong to get the most out of your 6-second effort to load it. I don't see a reason why crossbows should not also have a strength rating. You can load a crossbow of up to your Str rating with one full-round action. Heavier crossbows would take two rounds to load, or you wouldn't be able to load them at all.
If you like, you can also allow crossbows with 1,5x or even 2x your str mod to be handled as normal, because you use two hands to load it. Now that's going to be one nasty bugger. Your choice.

Javelins and Hunting Spears: I don't think a lot of players will ever use these, but anyway. Increase range increments, maybe to 50ft and 30ft. You can also increase the damage, for example to d10 x2 or even x3.
Note that historically, Javelins were often used (for example by the Romans) just to disable the enemy's shields. The spears (pila) were thrown so the opponents had to block them with their shields, the spears penetrated the shields and got stuck in them, so the bearer had to throw the shield away.
You can introduce this tactical use to javelins as well, then you won't even need to fiddle with the damage codes.

Other thrown weapons like daggers and axes: sorry, can't help you there... maybe you could up the AP rating for hatchets and axes. To be precise, I haven't seen an RPG yet where thrown daggers or axes were any good.