pictish defences

[Ankhe]

hello everyone!

I have been running a conan game every friday night for a while now and just recently the party has entered the pictish wilderness and I intend for them to be entering a village soon, they may be attacking it or even defending it, (looking forward to using mass combat rules!) depending on how they interact with the other locals.

In short, im still saving for scrolls of skelos and cant afford thunder river for a while so im wondering what sort of defences ye old generic pictish village is packing and some average numbers on able fighting men to keep things running for now. Im having to make up alot of the standard background stuff myself ATM so anything useful would be much appreciated.

 

[Mark Dunder]

You will not find many warriors or the able bodied within the village itself during the day. Being hunters and gatherers, even the women are out in the forest collecting food and other material they may need to make items they need for everyday living. Even the Shamens will go from time to time into the forest for their rituals or collection of herbs for their foul magic.

Your men will most likely come upon small groups or even individual Picts in the area surrounding their village. This number will vary greatly depending on weather and time of day. The women will be out shortly after sunup in order to gather mushrooms and such and catch a few small animals that wake with the day. After a good breakfast, the hunters will gather together briefly to find out who is going where and with whom, and will leave when the sun is already full in the sky. They will return in time for supper. The time after sunup and before noon will have the least amount of people in the village. People will start to trickle back in the afternoon and evening will have the greatest concentration. Of course, at night, everybody is tucked in and then depend upon their dogs to keep watch.

Oh, did I forget to mention dogs earlier?

Anyway, being tribal and somewhat antisocial in behavior, Picts will not have more than several families in one place. Also, villages are sometimes abandoned and moved to other places that are not hunted or overgathered. But the numbers you will find will most likely not be more than 1d10 x 10 warriors and perhaps three times as many women, old men and children. Depending on nearby water and plentiful resources, tribes may eventually build lodges to live in. Some villages could get as large as a 1,000 people, but this would be rare.

Picts are fearsome fighters, and even old men and women won't give up easily. Unless your party is around 20 to 50 heavily armed and armored men, I would not be seeking out a village anytime soon, expecting easy pickings.

I hope that gives you some ideas on what to expect.

 

[Oly]

OK this information comes from "Across the Thunder River" which if you're going to spend any time with the Picts is a fantastic book. I'd really recommend it if you can get it.

Anyway here's some stuff that the book has to say on Pict villages. It really goes into a fair bit of detail so you will benefit by getting a hold of it.

The Picts also cultivate crops around their villages, crops other than tobacco they will be tended to by women.

Small Pict villages are often unfortified and have 20-80 Picts.

Larger Hamlets have up to 400 inhabitants, the larger the population the more likely that it will be fortified.

Typical larger settlements have up to 900 people living there, the largest villages may have up to 2000.

A quarter to a third of the inhabitants will be adult males, almost all of them will be barbarians.

As for defences they will use terrain, a palisade, earthworks or some combination of those elements. There will be a 20 or 30 foot tall watch tower to overlook both the village and the cultivated fields that may surround it. Entrances to the village will be narrow, three feet is the given example, and easily closed with logs in the event of an attack.

Aside from the physical defences there will be spiritual ones too, scalps and/or the remains of prisoners may be hung from carved poles along with other such graphic deterrents.

 

[Ankhe]

Thats good thanks. I hadnt thought of them using dogs at all, the simple stuff is most easily missed it seems.
The party is strong on wennie cleaving barbarians and anything less than chunky armored foes tend to get wiped out real fast in a toe to toe fight so these picts are goning to have to bust out some good tactics and teamwork, im thinking along the lines of bone/wooden darts with some sort of native poison like of that backs of some frogs or perhaps tamed beasts larger than dogs? Maybe a chosen warrior submitted to a rite of were beasting as some form of champion against invaders, are the picts even that creative/extreme in holding their territory?

As they are, the party average lvl is around 6 and they are very confident in their ability to somp on anything thats not lvl 10+ demonic sorcerer and it would be good for them to learn a little respct for the common folk.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Don't forget that each Pict attacking a character after the first gets a cumulative +1 bonus to attack, also Picts can hold down a character and aid another to give one pict a +2 on a finesse hit (basically holding a piece of armour aside).

Also, you can impose a minimum of 1 point of damage for all hits regardless of damage reduction (to represent bruising, battering, et. al.) as an optional rule.

Remember that Picts are guerrilla fighters. They rush in on surprise (DV 10), finesse past armour, take a trophy if they can, then leave. They don't stick around toe-to-toe with armoured opponents unless they can seperate the opponent from any companions. They will attack at night, stealing up upon sleeping characters, past guards, steal weapons and slit throats. Characters may wake up to find other characters (PC or NPC) dead and most of the weapons gone.

My players are afraid of Picts and they won't wear armour in Pictland because one hapless Nordheimer found out that people don't need to run faster than the Picts to escape - they just need to run faster than the idiot in armour.

My typical encounter is four Picts hearing the PC's a mile off (exaggeration) as they tramp through the woods (see page 79 of AtTR), although they are not 1st level Picts. They scout out and follow the PCs while one runs back to the war party (which usually numbers around 8-12 in my encounters thus far). They know exactly where the PCs are.

When a non-Pict goes to the bathroom he often does not come back...

Really, all you need is one Pict going Rambo style in the woods - then imagine two Picts and go on up from there.

Picts are masters of guerrilla warfare. They strike and run. If a war chief loses too many warriors he may lose his rank as a chief, so they tend to strike unexpectedly, get in the surprise round with ranged attacks, rush in if they get the initiative, strike and leave. Look into the tactics of the American Iroquois Indians and you will have appropriate tactics for the Picts. The Picts are more apt to use arrows to quietly slay a few guards, slip over the wall in the night and murder people in their sleep than they are to assault an actively defended wall (although if you get enough of them together under a shaman like Zogar Sag they will assault castles - which thankfully is a rare occurance). They will act like hunters - they will lure people outside the walls, then attack. They will lead prey into traps, and that includes human prey.

The Iroquois used to hunt deer by building a long wall with an angle in it. A group of Indians then made noise and herded the animals toward the wall. Once the animals were corralled by the wall, other Indians would pop out and shoot them down. Picts could use the same tactic. Build a palisade in the woods, then chase after a column of troops (or players), making such noise that there seemed to be more than there really are, herding them into the wall. Once stopped by the wall, other Picts, hiding in the trees, would then pelt them with arrows until the soldiers (or players) are all dead.

If you have ever read "First Blood" by David Morrell (or seen the Stallone movie), then recall how Rambo decimated a troop of deputies out in the woods with just a knife. Imagine four or five of those type of guys in the woods. Playing Picts this way, I decimated a column of 32 soldiers with six Picts. Three characters managed to get out of the wilderness alive. Use their skills!

The problem with Picts is that they don't just stand there and fight. They hunt. They wait. Picts will steal over a wall, steal a woman or child, and wait until the search party comes. One by one, using guerrilla tactics, they slay the search party. Another, larger party comes. Same result. The players become afraid of the Picts not because they are such superb fighters, but because they never know when the attack will come - and it almost always comes when they are not prepared. It will come when a character has to use the bathroom. It will come while they are eating. It will come as they sleep. It will come as they are distracted by a noise elsewhere (such as the attack in The Black Stranger). It may just be a single arrow shot from the trees, or it may be a bull rush, where the character is pushed through a gantlet of waiting Picts, who then vanish when the other characters get into it.

 

[Mark Dunder]

The defenses of the Pictish villages, and even their weaponry, will depend greatly on nearby settlements of "civilized" nations. They may have iron weapons and fortify their villages to an extent. But I think it would spell their doom in the end to put their families in a position that would need constant attention to keep them safe. The Iroquois and other indians that had permanent settlements, were soon overwhelmed and controlled by the invading white settlers. Only the plains indians, like the Sioux, faired better because they could move their villages easily. Unlike civilized nations, Picts do not cooperated well enough to have realiable supply lines for men, food, and weapons. Having fortified villages requires this sort of cooperation.

You will not come upon any noticeable crops as you would find in civilized lands. The Picts, assuming we are modeling them on Native American Indians (REH seemed to have that in mind at times), will have their crops planted between the trees in a fairly haphazard manner. Not having livestock to pull their plows, it was not easy to maintain large acreage of crops as a general thing. Their "crops" as it were, ran fairly wild. We are not considering the much earlier civilization of Mississippian Indians, that used slaves to farm crops along the Mississippi mud plains.

Guerrilla fighting was the norm for many of the eastern Indians, as usually it was the Indians having to fight a large concentration of soldiers. The Sioux had horses, unlike the Picts, and could attack a column of soldiers at times. Fortunately, the jungle like conditions of the Pictish wilderness, prevents heavy calvary use. The Picts had fought Cimmerians for some time, and knew that stockades would not stop them. Early warning and fast runners to rouse the village to evacuate, would make up a better defense. Then the warriors would harass the invaders and lead them astray. A permanent settlement is just too easy for the surrounding nations to take out.

Your group would probably find a village site empty of people, but if your group had surprised a village somehow, it would still be tough on them. The villagers would run off and wait for the warriors to come back.

As had been pointed out several times in this thread, Picts are not organized as a nation. To keep putting them in permanent fortified villages is just plain wrong. I would like to think the Picts had survived in this way for this long, not only because they are savage fighters, but because they do have a little bit of smarts. Maybe they don't get along with each other that well, but they are not going to sit around waiting for some invaders to find and destroy their villages.

And that's how I see it.

 

[Oly]

To keep putting them in permanent fortified villages is just plain wrong. I would like to think the Picts had survived in this way for this long, not only because they are savage fighters, but because they do have a little bit of smarts. Maybe they don't get along with each other that well, but they are not going to sit around waiting for some invaders to find and destroy their villages.

And that's how I see it.

The impression that I got from the stories was that the villages were relatively permanent and did have walled defences.

The AtTR book has the Picts moving their villages every decade or so so they're relatively well established. It also makes a point of Picts not destroying villages during their own wars. They don’t usually want to cause irreparable harm to their enemies. War for wars sake rather than to destroy completely, after all if you wipe out your enemies then there won't be any war.

The invading Hyborians habit of wiping out villages is a shock to them. In the border areas maybe there has been some adjustment to the new situation with less "permanent" settlements but deeper in their territory the old ways will still hold.

That's AtTR's take on this anyhow, while it may not be quite how the Native American Indians did things it does seem to capture my feelings on the Picts from the books.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Yes, villages deeper in the wilderness not reached by civilized men build lodges and such, and their stockades are built most likely to keep out wild animals and to slow down the occasional intertribal warfare. Here's a quote from my earlier post.

Depending on nearby water and plentiful resources, tribes may eventually build lodges to live in. Some villages could get as large as a 1,000 people, but this would be rare.

This is assuming they are not being attacked all the time. Some of the information in the convenient source books may not necessarily be right. You can play them that way if you want, I'm attempting to reason out why they haven't been squashed by the superior armed and armored civilize nations. The Picts are not as numerous nor as organized. How are they able to hold out so long? Using civilized tactics would end them. Guerrilla fighters are constantly on the move. The Apaches, toward the end, took their whole tribe along with them, as they fought a losing battle. Starvation and sickness eventually stopped them.

Perhaps, along the Zingaran border where trade is strongest, it may yet be the beginning of a Pictish nation. Who knows?

If you want a fort to conquer and armies of Picts to fight, go ahead. No one ever said fantasy gaming was totally realistic.

And you may have forgotten the internecine warfare with the Cimmerians. I can't see how the Picts are terribly shocked at getting wiped out. Who writes these books anyway?

 

[Ankhe]

Thats awesome guys, I didnt expect that much depth - you rock!

The tactics you describe will make a great contrast to the run in, sack, loot and slay methods they are well used to.
One of the other guys runs a D&D game as well on fridays and the players tend to get into a real I have Super monkey power attack hyper destruction boots of gazebo slaying + 1 on my half-dragon monk!... Destroy all! mentality and it tends to carry over a bit, even more so after a few beers.
Id say a reorganization of their position on the food chain (by mere humans!?) would be oh so satisfying as a gm.

and now I have a bunch of note taking to do...

 

[Mark Dunder]

I have Super monkey power attack hyper destruction boots of gazebo slaying + 1 on my half-dragon monk!... Destroy all!

Yep, their life of ease, is soon to be over with.

 

[VincentDarlage]

And you may have forgotten the internecine warfare with the Cimmerians. I can't see how the Picts are terribly shocked at getting wiped out.

There is nothing to indicate that Cimmerians and Picts routinely engaged in Total War, annhilating each other with abandon. Such things usually spiral into the decimation of everyone (such as in Red Nails). That would be an unusual tactic for both parties of their technological level. The tactics of a higher society are usually not engaged in by the lower societies until they are forced to do it. Small primitive tribes won't survive long if they engage in total war as a principle. Part of the shock for the Picts is the reason behind the slaughter.

It took a lot for the Cimmerians to do that to the Aquilonians, and that battle was regarded as unusual.

Tribal societies just don't engage in Total War like that, especially not for the reasons the Aquilonians used to justify the slaughters - which is why historical leaders who unified these tribes like Chaka (Shaka Zulu) were so successful. Their methods of warfare were unusually and surprisingly brutal. The Picts have not had that sort of leader yet.

Anyway, the Iroquois were surprised by the tactics of the whites, so why would the Picts not be surprised at the tactics of the Hyborians?

Who writes these books anyway?

That would be me.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I kind of remember a little history and yes, tribal warfare was frequently Total War. I remember a few tales from the Christian Old Testament itself. Tribes basically were just extended families, eventually maybe even becoming a major race. Don't forget some extremely serious attempts by the SS to wipe out the Jews.

I kind of recall several suggestions in the Hyborian Age to one race wiping out, or at least attempting to wipe out another. The Stygians got out before they were wiped out.

In the Americas, tribes would wipe out another tribe. It happened. Should I bring up the tribal warfare in Africa? Actually, the list probably includes nearly every country that ever existed. Our history does not show us as very friendly to those we think are different from our own little tribe.

Just because the Cimmerians or Picts did not have the resources to continue their wars withou let up, does not mean they weren't trying or didn't want to wipe each other out. Internecine does mean it was destructive to both sides.

Perhaps the kids were shocked. The adults probably remembered a few massacres on both sides being done, or at least heard the stories, however inaccurate or colorful they may have been.

Well, I've said my piece. The difference between you and I, Vincent; is that you get paid for all this nonsense that gets written about a fictitious world, and I don't. You have a financial stake in all this, I just have my pride and envy.

 

[Voltumna]

i guess having rotting corpses of non-picts (recognized for their armour or clothes, red or yellow manes, etc) impaled as you get close to the village and other grim signs (altars with atrocious offerings ridden with vermin) that warn you off could serve to keep intruders away, or at least create a sinister atmosphere around the village that could distract or even call for intimidation checks. picts in hiding could observe until someone would cower, and strike with bonuses for surprise or intimidation. these things could work hypnotism spells maybe. picts are a pre-cataclysmic race that have remained barbaric since time immemorial. they were powerful adversaries then and now. scholars with that knowledge may be prone to whisper about that, enhancing the fearsome nature of the savages, unless they are wise enough not to demoralize their companios, but then anyone else privy to those legends could. they have bloody gods. they have berserkers, they also have dancing savages and their haunting drums. a menacing atmosphere could demoralize characters as well as impregnable defences, which among the picts, are more likely to be the picts themselves. most characters have bad will save bonuses, so maybe that could be exploited. and then, since you arrived to the frontier, you have been listening to all these legends of their savagery and their overwhelming numbers, the power of their shamans, their superior knowledge of the land, their guerrilla tactics, their disdain for death. have what seem to be treasure for the civilized man coated with contact poison, or traps that attack with poisoned weapons. they have endured always, and it seems they will always. an incursion into their country seems at best, to leave characters psycologicaly scarred somehow.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I remember a few tales from the Christian Old Testament itself. Don't forget some extremely serious attempts by the SS to wipe out the Jews.

The ancient Hebrews were a reasonably advanced civilisation at that time period. Not a good example of pre-civilised warfare. While the Nazis were certainly savage in some ways, they were a civilised people wiping out another civilised people. Another poor example of pre-civilised warfare.

Instances of barbarians engaging in total war with other barbarians for the purpose of land aquisition happened in history - but they were the exception, not the rule.

Well, I've said my piece. The difference between you and I, Vincent; is that you get paid for all this nonsense that gets written about a fictitious world, and I don't. You have a financial stake in all this, I just have my pride and envy.

In the case of Across the Thunder River, I had my father advising me, as he is both a History teacher and extremely knowledgeable about east- and west-coast American Indians. I grew up in a household inundated with American Indian and Wild West lore. He loaned me his entire library (which was extensive, consisting of 34 years of research) and I read most of it in researching Across the Thunder River.

(Of course, I also threw in a considerable bit from Howard's later Pictish tales and researched real Picts as well as I could).

 

[VincentDarlage]

i guess having rotting corpses of non-picts (recognized for their armour or clothes, red or yellow manes, etc) impaled as you get close to the village and other grim signs (altars with atrocious offerings ridden with vermin) that warn you off could serve to keep intruders away, or at least create a sinister atmosphere around the village that could distract or even call for intimidation checks...

Those are all great ideas! Atmosphere is definitely key for making the Picts memorable and fascinating.

 

[Mark Dunder]

With all due respect to your father, much of Native American history is suspect at best. There are several sites on the net put up by Native Americans, that give the lie to much of this history. But each to his own, and I am biased towards my own folk, for you see I am 1/2 Athabascan, a Native to Alaska.

The only thing I know about the Picts of history is that the Scots are their descendants. It seems they had some help from Celtic tribes to stop the Romans from getting a toehold.

The Picts of the Hyborian Age seem dissimilar to historic Picts and basing their culture on a Scots model of hill forts and such does quite work for me. Pictish Shaman may have access to ancestral ghosts and demons that, no doubt, have told them of their early heritage. The Cimmerians may have forgotten much of their early heritage as Atlanteans, as they have not messed with magic in a long time, and would not be caught dead talking to ghosts and demons. The Picts may feel they have been betrayed by the Cimmerians and thus the war continues.

The Picts of Hyboria do not seem to have learned how to smelt iron. They may also have taboos against using unnatural materials in their hunting and trapping, much as some of the indigenous Americans did. For whatever reasons, they have not progressed into the iron age. Some metals, such as copper, should be available to them. I would think the Shamans would use copper in their rituals, they did in Alaska.

Speaking of Shamans; in Alaska there were good and evil ones and I can't help but think this may be true of the Picts. In fact, it does not seem right that the Picts are painted as mostly evil. There is a thread on this forum pointing to some young authors writing about a Pict and border woman becoming romantically attached. So the inclination of the players to cast the Picts into the role of the villain is unfortunate. Mostly it's the Hyborians that are invading the lands of the Picts, not the other way around. Thus the true villains are the Hyborians.

Shame on all of you!

 

[VincentDarlage]

With all due respect to your father, much of Native American history is suspect at best. There are several sites on the net put up by Native Americans, that give the lie to much of this history.

I dislike researching materials through the internet. I prefer talking to people and using actual books. But the truth is not what I am wholly after in researching for the Hyborian age - I need to find out the version of the "truth" REH would have been familiar with, so I tend to stick to older research, even if it is less accurate. REH painted the Picts as villains, so I retained that colouring. I have no intention whatsoever in making the Hyborian age Politically Correct.

The model of the forts in Across the Thunder River is not based on Scot Picts, but on the Iroquois tribes, and a few of the tribes in Oregon and Washington.

 

[Valaryc]

Well, I've said my piece. The difference between you and I, Vincent; is that you get paid for all this nonsense that gets written about a fictitious world, and I don't. You have a financial stake in all this, I just have my pride and envy.

i think i will never understand why some people will always try to explain a FANTASY world with real world history or parallels. if i'm correct Vincent used the iroquese and other tribes as inspiration and as an example....

but to argue with Dunderm is like being Don Quijote and fighting windmills. dunderm knows everything...and of course...BETTER

 

[Mark Dunder]

Well, the Haudenosaunee, as the Iroquois prefer being called, had long houses or lodges, in fact their name means "People of the Long House." Iroquois is a derogatory term meaning "black snakes." But, Iroquois is more familiar to one and all, so I go with that also. I will make one clear statement on politically correct. Picts are Picts in Hyboria and you can treat them with all the disrespect they have garnered in fictional writing, but when you compare the hated Picts with Native Americans, you need to make sure you don't infer that the Iroquois are somehow Pictish in behavior.

They built their long houses by bending sharpened stakes and fastening them together at the top, then covered the whole lodge with bark. Which is why their houses are long, some were hundreds of feet long.

Still, it would not be smart to build Pictish settlements too close to known forts and towns of the Bossonians. The Picts would have made "camps" and this is perhaps what the player's characters would come across, not Pictish settlements with wives and children. Permanent settlements would be far and removed towards the interior of Pictland.

As far as pallisades and towers, much of that came from after the Europeans invaded (so I quess that fits with the Picts ). This was lucky for the Algonquin, as the Iroquois were at war with them, but the "interference" from the Europeans slowed this war down somewhat. Not that the Algonquin were that easy to beat. Actually, this war had somewhat to do with the European fur trade, so it may not have occured if not for the European invasion. But we can't know that for sure.

We cannot hold too close to the Native American model and tactics used, as the Europeans had muskets and such, which the Iroquois quickly acquired along with iron weapons. Also, there were the French, Dutch, Spanish, English and others all intent on the conquest of the New World, so some of the conflict between tribes may have taken a different turn.

Regardless of REH's perceptions of Native Americans of his day, we know better now. No reason we have to continue past prejudices.

Did REH really feel the Picts should be hated? Or did he just write how the Hyborians felt? Remember, Picts were at one time honored people in the time of Atlantis. How long do you want them to stay sub-human? If this is the consensus, lets make them Picts of Hyboria, and stop comparing their culture too closely with those on completely different continents. OK?

 

[VincentDarlage]

How long do you want them to stay sub-human?

Interesting question that actually has an answer - as time marches on, they rise to the status of conquerers & emperors before they become more and more sub-human until after the time of Bran Mak Morn (their last king), where they are so sub-human they are barely recognizable as human. In the Lost Race, they actually live underground. The Picts forever rise and fall in the works of REH, rising from sub-human status to that of emperors and back down to the sub-human.