Picking your collected brains

[Alexb83]

Okay, following a bit of an argument last week with some friends, how many torpedoes can a Type IX U boat carry, internally, for practical use in an engagement?

I was of the (hopefully correct opinion) that the total no. was 26, but that only one load, and one reload could be carried internally due to the available space - the rest were in outboard stores which would need to be moved into the ship outside of combat.

I ask, because we played a GQ N Atlantic Sub vs. Convoy battle last week (night time) at my local gaming group, and between 3 submarines, almost all of the 78 collected torpedoes were fired.
Given that GQ doesn't really have subs outside of campaigns, we had to do some serious houseruling to get them on the tabletop anyways, but the no. fired and the frequency of reload were pretty excessive IMO.

 

[Jellicoe]

Okay, following a bit of an argument last week with some friends, how many torpedoes can a Type IX U boat carry, internally, for practical use in an engagement?

I was of the (hopefully correct opinion) that the total no. was 26, but that only one load, and one reload could be carried internally due to the available space - the rest were in outboard stores which would need to be moved into the ship outside of combat.

I ask, because we played a GQ N Atlantic Sub vs. Convoy battle last week (night time) at my local gaming group, and between 3 submarines, almost all of the 78 collected torpedoes were fired.
Given that GQ doesn't really have subs outside of campaigns, we had to do some serious houseruling to get them on the tabletop anyways, but the no. fired and the frequency of reload were pretty excessive IMO.

I have stats for all Type XI (A - D/42) carrying 22. 6 in the tubes, 6 reloads and 10 up top.

 

[Alexb83]

Aft tubes included?

Edit *slaps head* 4 forward, 2 aft, 1 reload each, spares up top. Sounds right, yes...

 

[Jellicoe]

Aft tubes included?

Edit *slaps head* 4 forward, 2 aft, 1 reload each, spares up top. Sounds right, yes...

Yes aft tubes included Hope it helps.

 

[Alexb83]

It does indeed, I was certain that a large no. were in the outboard stores.

Any idea of the time and routine required to embark those stores into the sub? In case certain persons at my group decide to debate whether this could be done at night, during a convoy engagement.

 

[DM]

24 fish in the D1 and D2 versions (the extra weapons probably carried in a "wintergarden" extension). Later boats had schnorkel systems fitted which reduced the external stowage by 3 weapons.

(as an aside the D series also introduced the FA-330 autogyro, which was backfitted to some C series boats)

 

[Alexb83]

We were basing stats around the IXB version; we've already had to make some serious revisions to the turning rules (for all ships), and to the torpedo tables for submarines as provided by the basic GQ rules, although we've yet to try them again since the last game.

 

[Alexb83]

Any input on how long it would take to get those stored torps onboard? Are we talking sea-state 0, hoist/crane, all hands on deck?

 

[Jellicoe]

Any input on how long it would take to get those stored torps onboard? Are we talking sea-state 0, hoist/crane, all hands on deck?

Off the top of my head I don't know the exact times right now. This is not something you can do easily though or in rough waters.

 

[DM]

I've not found anything in what I'd call a hard reference but GQ3 has reloading times for externally stowed torpedoes at 1 hour per weapon. Knowing the people who did the research for these rules I'd go with that as a starting point. This obviously puts reloading from the external stowages outside the time frame of a VAS game but would be relevant in a campaign setting.

 

[Alexb83]

Roger that - the problems we had were in trying to get U-boats onto the table in a usable form. We had 2-turn reloads for the torpedoes as played, and submarines were invisible to ships more than 4 inches away.
Surprisingly on a 12x8 foot table, we managed to hunt down 2/3 of them, and sink 1, and only lost 2 tankers in the game (objective being to cross the table). Then again, CQ torpedo rules are not designed to represent U boats it would seem.


We never quite dealt with illumination, aside from saying that it really wouldn't work. Personally I think it should've been allowed for destroyers to spotlight subs once within 4 inches so as not to lose them.

We did have to adapt turning circles in lieu of the game, though - V&W destroyers apparently had turning circles bigger than battleships thanks to not having contra-rotating screws. And we've always had issues with how easily battleships turn in that system.

 

[DM]

I'm not much of a fan of including subs in tactical rules such as this anyway (as i'm sure some readers will be aware already ). For anything other than dedicated convoy games I've tended to treat them more along the lines of an RPG's "wandering monsters".

 

[Alexb83]

I'm with you on that one, DM - we had real difficulty shoehorning them in, which is not to say it wasn't a fun game. It resulted in a mix of hidden movement and much wailing and gnashing of teeth for the sub commanders who couldn't hit naff all with their torpedoes (the GQ rules seem to be heavily leaned towards destroyers using torpedoes as a coup de grace weapon, not for u-boats sniping at passing convoys).

It also went against the historical grain in that, when detected, submarines had no vested interest in submerging, because the ASDIC system would pick them up far further away than the good old eyeball.

In fact, the second sub we saw managed to sink a destroyer (with torpedoes, thanks to the close range nature of CQ torps getting benefits) that was circling it at full speed. I dread to think how unlikely this would be in real life.
Heck, at one point we discovered a sub and knew it would outmanouvre us for a turn, so we torpedoed it with the destroyer (missed, mind you - but if you've got them, fire them!) but eventually blatted it down to one hull box with guns.

 

[jfox61]

I play a pc game called Silent hunter 3 and typical reload times from their research and in game calculations usually equate to around 45 minutes per Torp and they can only do 1 at a time fore or aft. You have to assign crew to the action so I would play VAS as having to use all hands on deck order. To be honest though in the timescale of VAS I don't think you would have time to surface and perform this action unless playing a campiagn.

 

[Alexb83]

I think the slow loading trait sort of represents this - but it also deserves the (two shot!) trait, when you think that only one reload is stored onboard and readily available.

I too play SH3 - excellent game, with the grey wolves mod installed it's even better.

 

[jfox61]

yep I too have the mod installed. and also use the med add on too which adds a new perspective to the game. Can't wait for 4 to come out playing yanks this time

 

[Alexb83]

Is it not out already?

 

[jfox61]

You are correct 23rd March release and in stock. So there goes another £30 of my Salute 07 spending money. Thought it was an April release and that means I have missed 2 weeks of sleepless nights

 

[Lord David the Denied]

No British boats in this series so far? I can only play Americans so many times before I lose my mind... :wink:

 

[BuShips]

No British boats in this series so far? I can only play Americans so many times before I lose my mind... :wink:

You won't lose your mind, but your accent and spelling are bound to alter a bit. :wink: