Pathfinders vs Maraders, cover rerolls & multi-wound mod

[Avenger6]

I just finished a rather tramatic game in which I had my head handed to me by a pathfinder force. While I made many mistakes, the most significant was setting up all my jungle terrain. The pathfinder ability to reroll all failed cover saves was brutal. My oponents entire army stayed in cover the entire game. Given the cover bonus of +1, this gave him a 3+ save with re-rolls!!!! I did manage to kill one squad but at the cost of nearly my entire army. The only solution I could think of is missles with fire storms or nukes. The pathfinder army is designed in such a way that the most important factor in the effectiveness of the force is the willingness of your oponent to use his terrain collection. The cover reroll is seriously flawed. I sugest droping the rule altogeather. Pathfinders are trained to enter bug tunnels, period! Other wise smart pathfinder oponents should demand a flat table with no cover.
In addition reducing wounded models to one action destroys the effectiveness of the entire squad, not just the wounded model. If the Sgt. is the wounded model then the rest of the unit can't just move off and abandon the wounded leader. And what pathfinder commander would not first wound the SGT using the S&P sniper targeting rules. Given the S&P sniper rules and the Pathfinder special missle the ability of this army to would M8's & M9's is remarkable. They can shut down a Marader force in no time at all. Serious consideration should be given to reducing the number of accurate, multi-hit, kill-shot weapons their are in the game.

 

[Aniyn]

Pathfinders are trained to enter bug tunnels, period!
Other wise smart pathfinder oponents should demand a flat table with no cover.

1. Says who?
2. Hold on a second. You're telling me an infantry force fighting armored opposition would WANT cover?!?! Quick, call the Pentagon, they need to know!

 

[Turtle]

Seems to me you simply got out played.

Don't put all the terrain down just because you can. The terrain setup and deployment rules are there to simulate attackers and defenders choosing on which ground they fight. Since you're armored, I'd agree, try to get as little terrain on the board, but following the terrain layout rules. If you can't limit the amount of terrain, try to place the terrain so that there are corridors of fire through which your longer range exosuit weapons can shoot.

 

[Makoto]

You simply got completely outplayed. Pure Marauders/Exos with no infantry suport is simply asking for a sound defeat - for the same reason a BF:EVO tank force (or any other tank force in any system) should not even think about approaching enemy force without solid infantry support..
Also, with the amount of heavy weapons You shouldn't have problems with forcing multiple kill results on pathfinders, non-rerollable 6+ dodge is sth different than re-rollable 3+.

 

[human_target]

I agree that the rule for wounded multi-hit models is rather strange.
I think it should rather halve the power of the model as in from 8" move to 4" move, fire rate halved, etc... .
But I would keep the two actions.

Now, I also do hope we will be able to split units up as we can do it in BF: Evo and lose the rule about discarding a damage dice for each additional fire zone created.

For the rest, I think Pathfinders are tough and shouldn't be changed.
With the new rules for cover they are even tougher.

S

 

[Poko]

one word-flamers. marauder platoon has a potential to field more flamers than anyone. a squad of apes with two flamers in drop pods, and see those pathfinders toast.

this however is pure speculation, i'm yet to find a pathfinder oponent

 

[tneva82]

Other wise smart pathfinder oponents should demand a flat table with no cover.

And smart pathfinder player will insist that there is some terrain. Result being compromise that is balanced either way...

If the Sgt. is the wounded model then the rest of the unit can't just move off and abandon the wounded leader. And what pathfinder commander would not first wound the SGT using the S&P sniper targeting rules.

What sniper rules those are anyway? All I can remember is the experimental(which you can btw deny by simply saying "no") sniper rules which gives you mighty d6+2 accurate shot. Okay nice shot but it still needs to roll 4+ for kill result so in average 3-4 turns before putting ape to wounded status...

 

[JoseDominguez]

I can only imagine you were playing the save rules wrong...... you only get that save vs a target roll. Killshots still kill a pathfinder outright if he fails his 6+ save. I've played pathfinders and they are pretty easy to force out of cover.
Look at it this way, he can only have had one javelin per squad. So if yo ustay beyond 30" and jump and shoot every turn he will have to come to you as you outrange him.
Every roll of a seven plus is a kill vs pathfinders, so javelins, firestorms, flamers etc.... are lethal.

So stay back and pound them into the ground. A +1 cover save can't be relied on when you are taking hits from weapons that roll D10.

Anyway, reading your battlereport all I see is someone complaining about any special ability the opposition had. Learn from your mistakes. If your opponent hugs the cover, then cap drop a marauder with flamers right in the middle of them. That can take out a whole unit with one round of fire. If not then it's standing in the middle of them, in a wood they can't shoot back unless they jump first......... so they ready, you get to shoot them in reaction, they won't survive that.
Or take an aerial unit or two......... pathfinders have virtually no AA and nothing they can use in reaction.
Seriously, there are lots of things you can do against pathfinders (or any other army) you just need to think rather than complain that they aren't balanced. As far as I'm concerned the cost of pathfinders more than makes up for their extra abilities.
And if you read the background, pathfinders are actually special ops type troops who go deep into enemy territory.... most of the book art features them in jungles.
And remember to jump, unless your jungle terrain is all size 10, your marauders etc.... can jump and shoot through it, he can't sit back and exchange long range fire with a marauder/exo force with his small amount of javelins (one per very expensive unit).

Oh and have some engineers....... that sorts out your damage problem straight away, he'll have to fire every javelin at one ape to put it out of action. If he doesn't then you can repair it and he's wasted a whole rounds fire. Also, he has to worry about every unit in your army as anyone can take down a pathfinder, but you've only got to take out his javelins. Ever send cougars into close combat? Gives him a big headache..... if he wants to jump out of the jungle to shoot long range he has to ready first. So get some cougars in close, he'll have to target them and take the long range pounding your other stuff dishes out. If the cougars make it, he's dead as he's only left with a dodge.

 

[Makoto]

For engineers he'd need someone not in the marauder suit. Also this option would force him to get the damaged marauder immobile, and have the engineer standing next to it, spending all his actions on repairs - do remember that pathfinders in this scenario will only go reaver missiles (killshot)

 

[JoseDominguez]

Which inflicts two hits on a marauder. Not an outright kill so even a Chickenhawk won't be down.
As for engineer.. It's a single action. I.e. a 'ready action' not an action when readied. And neither model needs to be immmobile, just ensure that the model with engineer is next to the repaired model when he uses the action. I think you are getting engineer and medic mixed up.
So an exo with firestorms is an ideal engineer. he can only fire his pack weapons once a round anyway, second action can be repair.
THis forces the enemy to totally destroy marauders etc..... in one turn, they won't get too many with their limited number of javelins.
If he's relying on reavers, then you'll only really need to take out half a dozen models to cripple his army.

 

[Makoto]

Make it half of the squads or less with reavers for long-range support, rest with 3 flamers/squad. Quick, mobile apebusters.

Plus it's point per used action, so in effect both marauder and engineer cannot waste any actions on movement - which in effect immobilises them both (and we all know what hapens when MI stops being "mobile"). Also it calls for multiple officers - extremely expensive, which is a very bad thing, reducing number of models even more.

Cheaper and more efficient solution would be to get LAMI or CAP platoon instead of the exos and use Marauders and they were indended to be, as support unit.

 

[Poko]

use Marauders and they were indended to be, as support unit.

now,you naughty powergamer,you, we all know that according to the fluff Marauders are the Ultima Ratio of MI, the emperor's mailed fis...eeerm, well, yeah..you get the idea :lol:

 

[Makoto]

Yeah - they're like the tanks in BF:EVO or Mechs in the old Battletech - always expensive, powerfull and sturdy as part of the army but fragile on their own, thus requiring proper infantry escort ^^

 

[Avenger6]

You're telling me an infantry force fighting armored opposition would WANT cover?!?! Quick, call the Pentagon, they need to know!

What I'm telling you is that game balance is in serious doubt.
1. By the rules a Marauder platoon must be PL2
2. Pathfinder takes a PL1 force.
3. Pathfinder player chooses defend tactic.
4. This usually results in deep defense or encounter layouts. Both table layouts favor the defense.
5. PL1 force chooses table edge. Always choose the side with the most cover.
6. PL1 force chooses 1st setup, 1st turn.
7. All sqds in the PL1 force start "ready"
8. 1st player turn Pathfinders Jump up 6" clearing intervening terrain, Fire Reaver missiles and sniper rifles. Then fall back down into or behind cover. Target Marauder Sqd leaders and officers. Accurate Reavers are d10+4, killshot, Accurate Sniper rifles are d6+3, killshot. (vs Marauders). Second action ready. Repeat on second turn ect....
7. Unless the Marauder player is hiding behind level 4 terrain or better, and unless the pathfinder player is not on elevated terrain able to see over the intervening terrain (Try this, ready sniper on 4" hill top jumps up 6" then fire unaffected over intervening terrain of 9" or less, How many tables have 9"+ tall terrain?) , the Marauder player will be tied down by single action wounded leaders or sqd members before his first player turn.
8. Long range Marauder fire with some exceptions are non-flame. Pathfinders in cover reroll all failed saves.
9. You won't live long enough to get into flamer, CC range.
10. Put Marauders in drop pods. Smart pathfinder player is going first during player turns. Marauders land during air phase, no action. On the following 1st player turn Pathfinder player wounds one or more Marauders. See 7 above.

The point of a game is to provide a balanced play experience. If the rules favor one side to the point that a formula emerges that virtually guaranties victory for that side, then play balance is off. Since an all Marauder platoon is an option in the rules I must assume that the playtesters considered this a reasonable option. If Marauders are only fire support then why include tham as a platoon choice? They are not described as tanks and should not be as afraid as tanks to aproach the enemy without infantry escort. Since this forum is about discussing the game, one would think it reasonable to bring up this experience here. My suggestion of eliminating the cover save re-roll does not mean that infantry would not seek out terrain to hide in, nor does it deny a benefit to hiding in terrain. It simply reduces pathfinders to more normal capabilities. In my opinion cover save rerolls make pathfinders in cover nearly as effective as cougars with no additional cost.
Regards

P. S. Thanks for the rude comment Aniyn.

 

[Poko]

1. By the rules a Marauder platoon must be PL2

quick guide to PL1-
take officer. take sicon training. voila, instant PL1,with all the boons of PL2.
oh, and you do know that firestorm warheads are flame weapons? grab a flamberge, or in larger games a flyer in ground support mode, and see that cover and dodge saves go.
death from above,all the way 8)

 

[Turtle]

It doesn't look like the, lose an action at 1 hit left rules is in the evo rules. Perhaps it'll be there for some units, probably the tanker, but I think they'll get rid of it for units like exos and marauders.

 

[Avenger6]

The SICON officer option only allows you to take support options at one PL higher than the force is. It does not reduce the mandatory Marauder PL2 notation in the rules.

However I do agree that one response to the cover re-rolls is as others have stated Firestorms, Perhaps even a Nuke or two. Stand back until after the first air phase. Weaken the force with missiles. Then go for it. Use independent models and 2 man squads to maximize the number of maneuver elements and hope for some luck.

 

[Makoto]

What I'm telling you is that game balance is in serious doubt.

No offence intended, but the only thing I can see is tactical carelesness and lack of both foresight and afterthought.

Why did You approach into sniper range? There are truckloads of over-30" weapons on marauders, all perfectly able of achieving the 7+ kill value (twin 50's, trip hammers and hailmarys, javelins...), all of them infinite. Why did You accept a battle in most unfavourable terrain conditions? And when doing so, why didn't You simply force pathfinders into coming closer, out of the cover, utilising the range advantage?

Suggestion that re-rolling cover save makes pathfinders as effective as cougars is plain ridiculous - cougars re-roll dodges. Pathes - armour saves, so any hit of 7+ (very easy to achieve, especially with a Marauder force) negates this. Again, using a Marauder platoon You shouldn't even have noticed they can re-roll armour.

The point of a game is to provide a balanced play experience. If the rules favor one side to the point that a formula emerges that virtually guaranties victory for that side, then play balance is off.

Time and time again... You have been completely outsmarted, outgunned, outmaneuvered and bested. Nothing unbalanced here, unless player abilities are supposed to be always balanced and equall aswell.

If Marauders are only fire support then why include tham as a platoon choice?

You could also ask why there are independent artillery units if arty is supposed to be fire support.
The reason is this way Marauders gain more flexibility in tactical and strategic sense - they're better able to lend the support where and when neccesary.

 

[tneva82]

Target Marauder Sqd leaders and officers.

There's no official rules allowing to simply target those...

In my opinion cover save rerolls make pathfinders in cover nearly as effective as cougars with no additional cost.

Are you playing the rules correctly? You know what happens to cover save when kill result is rolled? Yup. Gone. Swoosh! Just like that! No need to worry about cover saves of pathfinders with marauders. Plenty of weapons that can get rid of that.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Basically......... out of everyone who plays SST only one person is finding this to be a problem.
My guess is that he was severely spanked in a game and shouted his mouth off at his opponent claiming the army was broken and that was the only reason he lost.

We've all suggested ways around a pathfinder army, he's managed to come up with reasons why none of it will work. In short, he's not looking for suggestions, he's looking for justification for losing a game badly.

Not going to happen, no one else considers the pathfinder re-roll as something that unbalances the game. But you've got to think of ways around it, you don't want to listen.

E.g. got any size 7 cover? Hide behind that, the pathfinders can't see over it (even with a jump) but marauders and exos can.

Use flamers, use weapons that can roll a 7 thus negating all but his dodge. And face it, all he can hurt you with is reavers and any snipers you are stupid enough to get in range of. You can hurt him with everything. If the pathfinder player does take flamers then he's lost his own advantage as now he has to get into range of close combat jumps.

In short it's no different to the carrion bug upgrade...... really, really annoying, but nothing someone with a bit of common sense can't work around. Yes he gets to re-roll cover saves, so just ensure he doesn't get to roll it in thefirst place.

Try again, take some of our advice on board..... no point shouting about it being unfair now. We don't think it is and you haven't tried any of our alternatives.

Look at it this way.......... being in a bunker gives a model a 2+ armour save. Why doesn't everyone buy bunkers?


Killshot. A bunker is no protection from a killshot, nor is a cover save.
All you need to roll is a seven.

Just a suggestion for next game...... take some blizzard missile packs, that's 6D10 on direct fire+ a shot from the javelin at d10+1. Should put a fairly large hole in any pathfinder force. Every chickenhawk can cripple a unit.
Couple that with exo firestorms, it's the pathfinder player that should complain.

So try this....... long range barrage of blizzard, javelin and firestorms (exo) to start. Then drop your ape marauders in at close range.

E.g. one unit of apes dropped 6" from a pathfinder unit: now you have PL 2 and your opponent will know this and go PL1, so, you more than likely are player two.

Cap drop the apes 5" away from his best unit in airphase of turn 2, place so the javelin and snipers are within 6". Now if he is player one he will have taken first turn. So, he has two options.... fire at you with another unit and apply hits to his own models within 6".
Or ready and jump the unit you are next to (it's jungle so you can only see an ape within PBR) when he readies, you fire both flamers. It's unlikely he'll have anything decent left after that (three apes, 6 flamers). Also, bear in mind that a unit of three apes has 12 hits, he needs to hit you with 6 10+ killshots. If he fails to take out even one of them, he'll lose everything in your round anyway.
Do this with your cougars too, they'll tear them apart. And no cover saves, rerolls in close combat.

There are any number of ways around pathfinders, try them before you claim the game isn't balanced.