Pathfinders vs Maraders, cover rerolls & multi-wound mod

[Avenger6]

As I said

I made many mistakes

What on earth would lead any one to believe

My guess is that he was severely spanked in a game and shouted his mouth off at his opponent claiming the army was broken and that was the only reason he lost.

Your wrong, you were not their. You'd like to believe that a player can't express doubt about a game mechanic with out being a jerk about it. Your supposition says more about your personality than mine.

You said

In short, he's not looking for suggestions, he's looking for justification for losing a game badly.

[quote}he's managed to come up with reasons why none of it will work[/quote]

Did you eve read my previous post

However I do agree that one response to the cover re-rolls is as others have stated Firestorms, Perhaps even a Nuke or two. Stand back until after the first air phase. Weaken the force with missiles. Then go for it. Use independent models and 2 man squads to maximize the number of maneuver elements and hope for some luck.

Yes I'm not looking for solutions


Who is making sweeping assumptions

Basically......... out of everyone who plays SST only one person is finding this to be a problem.

Everyone? How many people have played a Marauder Platoon against Pathfinders? Where is your research?

In response to the question of approaching into sniper range . Try not to on a 48” wide table where your opponent can deploy within 30" inches of your table edge.

Finally, since when is calling one game mechanic questionable calling the whole game into question?

try them before you claim the game isn't balanced.

You seem very sensitive to any suggestion that their is a problem with a portion of the game. Where not talking about the Bible here it's just a game, and yes it does have problems. Artillery scatter, MI squad command rules, snipers as part of the squad instead of independent hunters, to name just a few. Unless you disagree with the designers, perhaps the new EVO rules changes are just a result of poor sportsmanship lousy gaming and sour grapes on the part of a Mongoose staffer.

I do agree with Makato. I should have put more careful thought into deployment and squad design. I am in the process of redesigning my force. I have listened to every post, I like the dropping M8’s into the very teeth of his force. I am looking for solutions. It should not be a crime to suggest a problem in one area. I suggest that it is unwise to label strangers poor sports. I questioned a game mechanic not you personally.
Regards

 

[JoseDominguez]

You said the game balance was in serious doubt, you commented on the game balance being so far off in marauders vs pathfinders that it virtually guaranteed a win for one side.
No one else has found that, it's never been something anyone has commented on.
Re-read your own posts, particularly the bullet-pointed one detailing why marauders were unbalanced vs pathfinders.
You've repeatedly said game balance was off, then when anyone disputed it, you just reiterated the same points.

So, do you still think game balance is off? And that Pathfinders should be changed so you can beat them?
We've been playing pathfinders in our group since they were available, over a years worth of games with no problems that weren't easy to overcome with a bit of thought. Last game saw them blown to pieces by blizzard packs as soon as they showed their heads above ground.

So, is the game balance off? Or were we right: just rethink the army you take against pathfinders.
Think about it, criticising the pathfinders rules is a direct affront to anyone who a) wrote the rules or b) plays pathfinders and wins some games.
You think, maybe you were wrong about the rules being unfair?

Look back at your first post, it's not a question. It's a direct statement that the pathfinder rules are broken and unbalanced.

 

[Avenger6]

I am commited to this game. In general I like it over any other scifi mini game. I accept the challenge to play Marauder Platoons with more thought and with the wise sugestions that have been made by the members of this forum. At least one point that I have raised has been confirmed by others, that multihit models (not just M8's and 9's)when reduce to one wound are to severly impacted by the one action limitation.

1st. post

The cover reroll is seriously flawed.

Sugesting that one rule is seriously flawed does not call the entire game unballanced.

Here is my mistake (outside of play mistakes)

2nd post

game balance is in serious doubt.

I should have restated my earlier doubt about cover save re-rolls. Not a general statement about game balance. I mis-spoke, I apologize. However some of my assertions remain. Marauders are locked into PL2. Thus in all cases an advantage in table edge (and thus starting position) and who goes first will in all cases go to any PL1 force Vs Marauders. Could this not be a problem that needs addressing? I am not looking for a way to always beat Pathfinders. But are not Pathfinders themselves a way to "beat" or counter, bug tunneling?

And finally I never impuned anyones competence or honor, I questioned a game mechanic. How can anyone question a game feature if every player who owns the army takes it as a personal attack?

Regards

 

[JoseDominguez]

Cool, we both got heated

The main problem I had with the pathfinder book was the 'hidden' rules....
Like the 12" reaction range that's in the fluff about the armour, not in 'special rules'. Always thought that was odd, pretty easy to miss.
Or that a squad with a pathfinder neo dog can react to tunnel markers... pretty lethal when coupled with a reaver missile on an ammo dump.

I like the pathfinders, I find them pretty challenging to play as you never get that many. Wierd thing is, if I'm MI I love to use them as they open up loads of new tactics, but when I play bugs I love to see them on the board as none of my lot seem to use them to their best advantage.

I love all of the sneaky stuff you can do when you have pathfinder K9, but I'm equally fond of the look on a players face when the plasma hits his pathfinders.

But in Marauder vs Pathfinder games, cap drops and blizzard packs are your friends. And if he takes defend tactics or always goes one PL lower and gets first turn, take probe. That way he will take turn one and you have nothing for him to shoot. Half of your army is off board as it can be held until the start of your turn, the other half is in space waiting to cap drop. Your army arrives on the jump and launches everything at the pathfinders. It's still only used one action, it can now ready and hold it until turn two.

Also, if he's relying on cover and holding back, he's missing out on the pathfinders best ability: no reactions in the first turn. With this pathfinders can jump into contact with an enemy front line and then use trenchsweepers and flamers up close with no reaction, if the board has lots of cover then you can even stay quite close (5") This means that other than flamers, anyone wanting to shoot has to jump (again the ready action triggers a reaction from you) Bear in mind that models with lower PL can start the game ready....... he could be right in the middle of your army in the first turn and tear it apart, then ready the models even after they have jumped (lower PL can start ready.. first action is jump and shoot, still have one action left!)
So watch out for that one too !

The other option is to play a few games with cap platoons and marauder support..... one disadvantage you have is that he knows you are going to field marauder platoons. So he has limited options to consider.
If he knows your models he can plan accordingly as there's only so much you can alter (similar probelm for bug players).

If me and you were to show up at a tourney tommorow with six other players, noone would have an advantage..... I know you are playing marauders, but my army has to be balanced against all of the others too. So having a balanced force not a marauder beater is in my best interest.
If I bring a marauder beater I may do well against you, but bugs or caps will probably tear me apart.
If the opposition knows what you are going to field and can tailor it's forces to you then they have an advantage. That is one problem with limiting yourself to marauder platoons, the army book wasn't written with that in mind, so it's a self imposed hindrance.
One other thing is to use the set up rules to your advantage. if he always picks defend, go probe. (Place chickenhawks on the board.. cougar exos would be even better though, apes offboard) That way you have battleline setup. You start on the jump, get into the middle of his forces and start ripping them up. You may even get within reaction range (he can't react to you though, only with stream weapons due to all of that jungle). So jump in and shoot flame etc.... then ready. If he readies and you are within reaction range you get to jump: and shoot all over again.

As for multihit models being hampered.... they are, but you can fix them with an engineer which is useful and bear in mind that unlike medic you can make as many repairs as your engineers have actions. (a unit of cougars with a couple of engineers can really make a difference).

The other advantage being that all of his moritas etc... are a waste of time, but your smallest weapon can still kill anyone in his army. His units have basically become very expensive javelin carriers!

 

[Makoto]

Just remember chickenhawk can't shot while jumping.

 

[Avenger6]

They did become expensive javelin carriers. My problem was setting up where he could see me 1st turn. being fixated on an assault on foot, and (perhaps) allowing the optional sniper rules. I just can't help my self. I always allow the optional sniper rules (I may never change in this and my frend knows it). In my opnion snipers should at least have the option to be independent hunters not just squad weapon choices. I never considered dropping right in his lap, (within reaction range) during the air phase. Last night I went out and purchased some plastic missile models for firestorm attacks. I do worry that my response to Pathfinders on defense will become to formulaic but if he keeps on hiding in his deployment area I have to figure a way to get at him.

While I still have doubts about the cover save re-roll. I have been gleaning a plan from this discussion. I may be stubborn but I want to see if Marauders can work as a stand alone force.

1. Hide M9's w/blizzard, & M8 with Hail Mary=Indirect bombard (last time I setup in the cover not behind it)
2. CHAS & M8 Plt. Sgt. on the flanks to cover the unknown
3. Firestorm strike
4. M8's w/flamers to drop in his lap.

If this or some other refinement can break the Pathfinder in cover defensive plan, at least from time to time (given the vagaries of dice), and I'm begining to believe it can, then I will gladly (publicaly) withdraw my criticism of the cover re-roll.
Regards

 

[JoseDominguez]

I think the cap dropped apes will probably tear his force in half.
One unit of 3 dropped on him will get to fire twelve flamers in a turn. If he's reliant on cover, then they won't even be able to react back (except with flamers). That should put a fairly big hole in him.
And remember killshots..... get some chickenhawks onto high ground and javelin him to bits.
Again, use probe..... the Chickenhawks can enter 'on the jump' and get up high. Their second action can still be a shoot...... one chickenhawk = 6D10 of blizzard, 1d10 +1 javelin and a twin 50.
Ever considered going defensive too? Marauders can use reliant platforms and a bug broom or scythe will decimate pathfinders. It will also ensure you are set to deep defence
An ammo dump will also allow you to rearm those blizzards
I'd go: probe tactics and PL2. You can pretty much expect him to go defend and PL1 from what I've read.
This means you are on overun, he's on delay.

Hold back your apes in capsules, hold back the rest as per the probe rules, he'll waste his first turns fire as you'll have very little on the board. Bring on the probe force and shoot of as much long range stuff as you can in turn one and two. Jump into his half on turn three..... just after the apes have landed. At this point he's unlikely to be in any fit state to drive you back. At the end of the game you get full points for any unit in his half with even a single model left. He will lose the same amount of VPs.
Remember to use his cover against him, a pathfinder in jungle who's 4" from an ape marauder can't shoot it with his javelin without readying to jump..... if he does he takes two flamer shots. Dropping one unit of apes and two NCOs near three units can really hamper an 'dug in' army from moving.

 

[Avenger6]

I love the idea of an ammo dump. Great idea for the M9 Bombarding unit.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Also a real draw for the Pathfinders, place it behind some really big cover and he'll be convinced he has to take it out.
That could draw him in. But be careful of it blowing up on you.
Use it on the bounce and don't stay parked too close if he can reach it.
Works well if you have it in a building with the unit standing nearby, only one marauder needs to be touching it to use it.

Bear in mind that after this first game, he'll probably abandon defence and start dropping pathfinders on you