Passages x distance: some thoughts on cost.

[Zowy]

Common Spacecraft :
Free Trader; Type A ( Basic )

200 dTon Hull .................................... 8.0 Mcr
Streamlining w/Fuel Scoops .............. 0.8 Mcr
Jump Dive A .................................... 10.0 Mcr 10 dTons
Maneuver Drive A ............................. 4.0 Mcr 2 dTons
Power Plan A .................................... 8.0 Mcr 8 dTons
Fuel ( 2 weeks on PP and 1 Jump ) ------------ 22 dTons
Bridge .............................................. 1.0 Mcr 10 dTons
Computer Model 1bis w/software .... 0.145 Mcr - -
Basic Civ. Electronics ........................ 0.05 Mcr 1 dTon
10 Staterooms ................................. 5.0 Mcr 40 dTons
20 Low Berths .................................. 1.0 Mcr 10 dTons
Fuel Processors 1 dTon .................... 0.05 Mcr 1 dTon
Ship's Locker .................................... 0.1 Mcr - -
2 Hardpoints .................................... 0.2 Mcr - -
Fire Control space reserved by Bridge ---- - - 2 dTons
Cargo Hold -------------------------------------- - - 95 dTons
Total cost w/ 10% discount > ................ > 34.42 Mcr

Basic Crew: Pilot, Enginer, Medic, Steward
Common upgrades: Weapons and a more powerfull computer, so the ship can have a Gunner and have a better chance to get 5 dTon Mail drums.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Trade Income : per Jump w/ 2 Jumps per month
6 Staterooms for 2 High and 4 Middle Passengers >> 20,000 Cr
20 Low Berths >>>> 10,000 Cr
( Passengers cargo space uses up the reserved Fire control space )
Freight Cargo 95 dTons > > 95,000 Cr
Mail and Speculative Trade > > ??
Total per -Month-, i.e. 2 jumps ( full manifest ) >>> 250,000 Cr

Cost and Maintenance : per Month
Mortgage/ROI for owners, 1/500 ships cost minimum =~ 68,840 Cr
Life Support and Supplies .........................................> 22,000 Cr
Fuel for 1 Momth 44 dTons, mostly unrefined .............> 4,400 Cr
Repairs and Maintenance .........................................> 20,000 Cr
Crew Salaries ............................................................> 16,000 Cr
Total Monthly Costs --------------- ---------------- ~ >>> 131,240 Cr
Profts above basic ROI and Debts of ship Owners . ~ >> 118,760 Cr

-----------------------------------------------------------

So a Jump 1, Basic 200 dTon Ship can make money for it's owners if everything goes right. But we all know that it never does :?

With the over generous Ship Shares system and loans being changed from 1/240 of the cash pice of the ship per month, with 20% down in CT. To 1/500 of final loan value, after ship shares have been used, per month in MGT. ( I added owner basic ROI for their ships shares = to 1/500 of a ship share value per month, so it would be the same as bank loans. Even though there is no mention of owners profit in the rules. )

( I missed the change to the financing rules between CT and MGT. It is a very BIG change to a ships cost. It would allso result in a loan term of 80 years or so, i.e. 1/500 of loan amount over 960 months. If you -only- make the minimum payment on the loan, you are mostly just paying interest!? )

So is the Ship Shares / Loan payment system broken allso?

Edit: Take out the 10% discount for a standard ship, I can't find a rule for it in MGT

 

[AKAramis]

Here's the rough for 400 Td

                         ---J1_1G---    | ---J2_1G---     | ---J3_1G---     | ---J4_1G---     | ---J5_1G---     | ---J6_1G---     |
Hull                      400   16      |   400    16     |   400    16     |   400    16     |   400    16     |   400     16
JDrive                     15     20    |    25    40     |    35    60     |    45    80     |    55   100     |    65     120
MDrive                      3     8     |     3     8     |     3     8     |     3     8     |     3     8     |     3     8
PP                          7     16    |    13    32     |    19    48     |    25    64     |    31    80     |    37     96
PPFuel                      4     0     |     8     0     |    12     0     |    16     0     |    20     0     |    24     0
JFuel                      40     0     |    80     0     |   120     0     |   160     0     |   200     0     |   240     0
Bridge                     20     2     |    20     2     |    20     2     |    20     2     |    20     2     |    20     2
SR                         32     4     |    32     4     |    32     4     |    32     4     |    32     4     |    32     4
2HdPt+2FC                   2     0.2   |     2     0.2   |     2     0.2   |     2     0.2   |     2     0.2   |     2     0.2
Software                    0     0.1   |     0     0.2   |     0     0.3   |     0     0.4   |     0     0.5   |     0     0.6
Computer                    0     0.03  |     0     0.045 |     0     0.24  |     0     0.3   |     0     7.5   |     0     15
Ship's Locker               0     0.1   |     0     0.1   |     0     0.1   |     0     0.1   |     0     0.1   |     0     0.1
Cargo                     277     0     |   217     0     |     157   0     |    97     0     |    37     0     |   -23     0
===================================.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+
Price                            66.43  |         102.545 |         138.84  |         175     |         218.3   |          
Financed                         54     |          83     |         112     |         141     |         175     |          
===================================.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+
Monthly Payment                 270     |         415     |         560     |         705     |         875     |          
Per Jump Payment                135     |         207.5   |         280     |         352.5   |         437.5   |          
Maint                             4     |           4     |           4     |           4     |           4     |          
fuel                             22     |          44     |          66     |          88     |         110     |          
LS-Crew                           8     |           8     |           8     |           8     |           8     |          
ST: Expenses                    169     |         263.5   |         358     |         452.5   |         559.5   |          
===================================.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+============.====+
Per ton costs financed          610     |        1214     |        2280     |        4665     |       15122     |          
Per ton costs not financed      123     |         258     |         497     |        1031     |        3297     |

I think I got the maint costs wrong on one of them.

But the basic relationships between different jump factors look similar.

 

[AKAramis]

So, looking at the numbers, flat rate by time is just fine for J1-3... simply varying how much of the ship must be paid off to make a profit.

Also, note that the MoTrav draft 3.2 trade rules are, in play, FAR more generous even than T20!

 

[AKAramis]

Zowy: mixed designs, under the current (draft 3.2) rules cost money over a pure cargo design.

For High Passages, Income by cargo ton replaced by steward and Passengers

        Steward Skill Level
          1      2        3        4      5        6
J 1     375    583.3    687.5    750	791.7    821.4
U 2    1000   1416.7   1625     1750   1833.3   1892.9
M 3    1625   2250     2562.5   2750   2875     2964.3
P 4    2250   3083.3   3500     3750   3916.7   4035.7
  5    2875   3916.7   4437.5   4750   4958.3   5107.1
# 6    3500   4750     5375     5750   6000     6178.6

And the same calculations for mid passengers (at optimal rates)

        Steward Skill Level
        1       2       3       4       5       6
J 1   568     586     595     601     605     608
U 2  1136    1172    1190    1202    1210    1215
M 3  1705    1758    1786    1803    1815    1823
P 4  2273    2344    2381    2404    2419    2431
  5  2841    2930    2976    3005    3024    3038
# 6  3409    3516    3571    3606    3629    3646

And for freight, per ton:
J1 1000
J2 2000
J3 3000
J4 4000
J5 5000
J6 6000

 

[AKAramis]

Some implications of my prior post:
Since one gains no benefit from carying passengers, the costs are badly broken.

The break, in this case, is the required numbers of stewards. Double the number of HP per steward, and it is doable. In either case, the costs still hover well below the value of carrying freight at per parsec rates.

If we double the price of mid passage, it breaks even. Doubling both the number of HP per steward (to 2 per level) and doubling the cost, and it barely squeaks by.

Here's High Passages at Cr10,000 per parsec

        Steward Skill Level
         1      2       3      4      5       6
J 1   1000   1416.7  1625   1750   1833.3  1892.9
U 2   2250   3083.3  3500   3750   3916.7  4035.7
M 3   3500   4750    5375   5750   6000    6178.6
P 4   4750   6416.7  7250   7750   8083.3  8321.4
  5   6000   8083.3  9125   9750  10166.7 10464.3
# 6   7250   9750   11000  11750  12250   12607.1

You'll note that it barely squeaks by over freight. This is probably a good number for a base, but it still fails for J5+ financed vessels, and j4 200Tders...

 

[EDG]

Aramis, I have to admit your last few posts are largely meaningless to me. Would you mind actually writing some coherent explanation to the tables and what their implications are? I have no idea why you're doing or saying half the things you're saying - not everyone is all up to speed on trade and economics in Traveller.

(Also, what exactly is the minimum dtonnage of ship that can actually fit a J6 drive?!)

 

[AKAramis]

Aramis, I have to admit your last few posts are largely meaningless to me. Would you mind actually writing some coherent explanation to the tables and what their implications are? I have no idea why you're doing or saying half the things you're saying - not everyone is all up to speed on trade and economics in Traveller.

(Also, what exactly is the minimum dtonnage of ship that can actually fit a J6 drive?!)

The last couple posts are per-ton rates for passages at the rates given in draft 3.2. Since MP and HP are less than Cr1000/ton, the table establishes that no one with half a brain will willingly replace cargo tonnage with passengers under the current draft.

We can fix it nicely, though... simply double the passage rates given.

The math is unpleasant, but I'll spell it out for you:

Cr/TdHP: ((Dist * StewardLevel * HP) - 1000(StewardLevel +1))/(4 * (StewardLevel +1))

This accounts for the requirement of one level of steward per high passenger, plus the steward himself. The first block is income, the middle is life support, and the end is tonnage.

Cr/TdMP = ((Dist * 5*(StewardLevel+1) * HP) - 1000(1+5*(StewardLevel +1)))/(4 * (1+5*(StewardLevel +1)))


By expressing all non-freight haulage in terms of credits per ton-displacement, we can directly compare profitability from a design perspective. (One can blame my awareness of that on Peter Newman....)

We can express the net effects in terms of "how many tons of cargo" they add to the net profitability. The point being that, as written, draft 3.2 provides all passages to be negative tonnage, that is, producing less than an equivalent volume of cargo.

 

[Zowy]

Yep, passengers = bad news for a Jump 1 ship.

You are spending 500,000cr each, to build the staterooms and then paying monthy costs for stewards and life support. Pure cargo ships are the way to go with MGT rules, which is very non-Travellerish. Mixed Passenger / Cargo designs are supposed to be the norm for small trade ships. With the Bulk cargo ships and Passengers Liners starting at around 600-800 dTons, depending on Sector trade routs.

Edit: The rules and costs in the "Spacecraft Operations - Passage" and "Trade - Passengers" do not match. The cost for MP is 4,000Cr vs 2,500Cr per parsec. Allso LP is per jump vs per parsec. The cost of cargo is 1,000Cr per dTon, but I can not find if it is per jump or per parsec. I just assumed it was per jump or you would never bother with passengers and those Jump 3 Liners would never be built, to move people around.

Edit 2 ... I retract my concerns over Costs and Maintenance, from some of my other posts. I just reread it and Life Support in MGT was changed to per month, from CT per trip. So I can live with the Repairs & Maintenance cost being changed to 100Cr per dTon monthy, from 0.1% of ships cost annually.

I think Ship Shares and minimum payment per month of 1/500 of loan amounts is broken and has no relation to risk vs reward and ROI. Loan repayment needs to at least be 1/240 per month over 40 years. If loans are changed back to CT norms, I could let slide the Ship Shares system being a bit to good.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

No economic reason for passenger sounds a lot like the issues the Amtrack here in the States has had for decades.

The government dictates prices that are less profitable then freight (even unprofitable) and then insists that Amtrack make money that way.

Almost as if the Imperium made a rule about travel rates that forces the little guys out of the market...

Seriously, if we raise the HP and MP prices too high, are we breaking the idea of people Travelling? If it costs you 2 years salary to go to the nearest star, there won't be very many travellers, even for the megacorps.

 

[SableWyvern]

Seriously, if we raise the HP and MP prices too high, are we breaking the idea of people Travelling? If it costs you 2 years salary to go to the nearest star, there won't be very many travellers, even for the megacorps.

A significant part of the current issue seems to be the very harsh rules regarding the necessity of Stewards, and the wages, staterooms and life support they require. At the moment, you may well find yourself catering for as many stewards as you have passengers.

Reduce the need for stewards, and your profitability increases.

Edit: actually, I think I misread Aramis. I'm not sure how much altering the steward rules will effect his numbers.

 

[atpollard]

With all of the focus on 'profit per ton' for passengers vs freight, do not overlook the more critical basic issue of overall profitability. Higher jump means Higher operating expenses and Less room for (cargo and/or passengers). Nothing else matters if the ship cannot make the monthly payments.

PS assuming that the ship is paid off at the start is a bad fix In My Opinion.

 

[EDG]

Here's a thought - Aramis, what TL are you assuming for the ships? Obviously stuff like J6 is only going to be available at high TLs, but according to FF&S J6 is TL 15, and J1 is TL 9 - so would it be any cheaper to build a J1 ship in a TL 15 shipyard than in a TL 9 one? (though that's a point, the drive tables don't seem to even mention anything about how volume and performance and price vary over TLs).

What about old ships too? A brand new J1 ship probably costs a lot more than one built a few hundred years ago (or even a few decades ago) but is still going. MGT does have rules for "Old ships" after all (just before the "Spacecraft Operations" section).

 

[captainjack23]

Seriously, if we raise the HP and MP prices too high, are we breaking the idea of people Travelling? If it costs you 2 years salary to go to the nearest star, there won't be very many travellers, even for the megacorps.

A significant part of the current issue seems to be the very harsh rules regarding the necessity of Stewards, and the wages, staterooms and life support they require. At the moment, you may well find yourself catering for as many stewards as you have passengers.

Reduce the need for stewards, and your profitability increases.

Edit: actually, I think I misread Aramis. I'm not sure how much altering the steward rules will effect his numbers.

Aramis, possibly quick question. In your cost formulae, dist = distance, correct ?

 

[AKAramis]

Seriously, if we raise the HP and MP prices too high, are we breaking the idea of people Travelling? If it costs you 2 years salary to go to the nearest star, there won't be very many travellers, even for the megacorps.

A significant part of the current issue seems to be the very harsh rules regarding the necessity of Stewards, and the wages, staterooms and life support they require. At the moment, you may well find yourself catering for as many stewards as you have passengers.

Reduce the need for stewards, and your profitability increases.

Edit: actually, I think I misread Aramis. I'm not sure how much altering the steward rules will effect his numbers.

Drastically. Doubling the passengers per steward is the same as doubling the steward level for HP....

CT didn't require stewards for MP, and MT required one per 30 or so.

 

[AKAramis]

With all of the focus on 'profit per ton' for passengers vs freight, do not overlook the more critical basic issue of overall profitability. Higher jump means Higher operating expenses and Less room for (cargo and/or passengers). Nothing else matters if the ship cannot make the monthly payments.

PS assuming that the ship is paid off at the start is a bad fix In My Opinion.

Which is why I showed both ends for the 200 and 400 tonners.

J1 makes a profit on 80% financing
J2 on about 60%
J3 on about 20%

 

[captainjack23]

Here's a thought - Aramis, what TL are you assuming for the ships? Obviously stuff like J6 is only going to be available at high TLs, but according to FF&S J6 is TL 15, and J1 is TL 9 - so would it be any cheaper to build a J1 ship in a TL 15 shipyard than in a TL 9 one? (though that's a point, the drive tables don't seem to even mention anything about how volume and performance and price vary over TLs).

What about old ships too? A brand new J1 ship probably costs a lot more than one built a few hundred years ago (or even a few decades ago) but is still going. MGT does have rules for "Old ships" after all (just before the "Spacecraft Operations" section).

Oh good, another important issue. You'd think this was a game trying to simulate life to model a fictional situation, or somthing. :wink:

Yes, the overall ship costs are a big issue to consider. Which suggest that another unresilved issue is this:
Is it better to build a ship at the miimum tech neccessesary for the systems (in this case jump) and allow many many more places to build it (increasing competition, and decreasing tech related overhead increases, and presumably lowering price) or standardize everything at maximum tech (tech 15 parts, take the maximum discout for overtech production wherever possible). Actually, I don't know the answer..there may be a hybrid answer too, just to complicate issues.

I think the assumption is that standard LBB2(and now MGT) shp design uses ruthlessly efficient and simplified max tech designs of modules/components that can be constructed at lower tech levels without losing efficiency, and presumably for a standard cost. It may be that the easiest way to deal with the set of variables construction tech adds is to work from there.

 

[AKAramis]

Here's a thought - Aramis, what TL are you assuming for the ships? Obviously stuff like J6 is only going to be available at high TLs, but according to FF&S J6 is TL 15, and J1 is TL 9 - so would it be any cheaper to build a J1 ship in a TL 15 shipyard than in a TL 9 one? (though that's a point, the drive tables don't seem to even mention anything about how volume and performance and price vary over TLs).

What about old ships too? A brand new J1 ship probably costs a lot more than one built a few hundred years ago (or even a few decades ago) but is still going. MGT does have rules for "Old ships" after all (just before the "Spacecraft Operations" section).

Not under the draft 3.2 rules... TL is essentially immaterial under both Bk2 and under MoTrav draft 3.2 (less so in 3.2, since larger ships can be built as drives are not limited in letter by TL)

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Unforunately, the MGT rules do not support that theory.

There is NO benefit to building a J1 engine at TL15 vs. TL9. Cost, size and performance are identical for a Driva A engine, no matter the building TL.

If engines, hull, fuel and bridge/computer is the same at every TL, then what is the advantage to building at a high TL? If you can't repair it as easily, it should be cheaper, more roomy or something to make up for that.

One level of Steward should be able to support 4-5 HP. BUT, I would say Steward-0 could handle several as well.

Personally, I would use a "rules of 5" or something,
Steward-1 can support:
5 HP or 25 MP (So from a support point of view 5 MP = 1 HP)
Steward-0 supports 1/2 that number.
Steward-2 could support twice that number.

So, now you can decide if you want 2 Steward-0 people or 1 Steward-1 person....

 

[rje]

It's amazing that one level of steward skill is required per High Passenger, especially with skill levels being as valuable as they are in MGT.

CT had 1 steward per 8 passengers. Assuming a typical steward has skill level 2, could MGT instead say one level of steward skill serves four High Passengers?

 

[rje]

One level of Steward should be able to support 4-5 HP. BUT, I would say Steward-0 could handle several as well.

Personally, I would use a "rules of 5" or something,
Steward-1 can support:
5 HP or 25 MP (So from a support point of view 5 MP = 1 HP)
Steward-0 supports 1/2 that number.
Steward-2 could support twice that number.

So, now you can decide if you want 2 Steward-0 people or 1 Steward-1 person....

Ah, that's a clever idea. My twist would be "4 passengers per level", with a level-0 supporting 1 passenger.

Don't know if ignoring high versus middle is good or bad... seems fiddly to re-calculate your steward needs every jump. Either way, it might be nice to have a "close enough" rule of thumb.