Particle Beam Turrets TL and Mounting Limit Clarification

[far-trader]

I think I saw this question asked here a while back but can't find it on searching (the search function seems to only be searching postings made since the board update ).

Apparently the LBB version of MgT HG states on pg 47:

"Only one particle beam can be fitted to a turret, but this must be a triple turret."

(note my recent download of the full format version does not include this line)

The problem is that while Particle Beams are listed as TL8 a triple turret is listed as TL9. So how does one fit a ship with a Particle Beam at TL8?

More errata? Maybe given that Beam Lasers were upgraded to TL9 from TL7 the Particle Beam should also have been upgraded to a higher TL to fix this discrepancy (and putting it more in line with previous versions).

I don't seem to recall an answer, official at least, when the question was previously raised. Does anyone remember the earlier thread? Or can we get an official clarification now? Here or on CotI:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=25147

Thanks in advance

 

[AndrewW]

The update is also in the High Guard Errata. Particle beams aren't limited to turrets though, you could use a TL 8 particle beam bay.

 

[Jak Nazryth]

You can also fix-mount it to a ship, reducing the weapon system by 1 ton because of lack of a turret.

 

[far-trader]

The update is also in the High Guard Errata. Particle beams aren't limited to turrets though, you could use a TL 8 particle beam bay.

True but the question is it is listed as a turret mountable weapon available at TL8 yet the TL of the triple turret required precludes such.

FWIW I don't understand a TL requirement for turrets based on mountings available. I see no sense to it.

You can also fix-mount it to a ship, reducing the weapon system by 1 ton because of lack of a turret.

It was my understanding that the "-" in the TL line for fixed mounts defaulted to the TL required for the turret, so we're still stuck with requiring TL9 to fixed mount a particle beam in a triple mounting :|

And TL requirements for fixed mountings make even less sense than the TL requirement for turrets based on mountings available imo.

I'm also disappointed that my version of the PDF downloaded just a few months ago is apparently NOT updated with the latest (and older than that) errata :roll:

 

[AndrewW]

I don't have an answer for why a triple turret requires TL9 though...

 

[jwpacker]

Have a look at the example ship, on page 71 of High Guard, at the bottom. The ship mounts:

80 Tech level 11 triple Particle Beam turrets with accurate and
high yield special features. Each particle beam now costs MCr8.
Total is 80 tons and MCr 2,000.

Do the math on the cost, and you'll see that each turret is costing MCr 25, that is 8 per particle beam, times three, plus 1 for the cost of the turret.
That says to me that there is no prohibition on having more than one Particle Beam per turret, at least on capital ships, and I'm not seeing any additional notes to indicate that that's only for capital ships.
That would deal with your quandary...

 

[DFW]

That says to me that there is no prohibition on having more than one Particle Beam per turret, at least on capital ships, and I'm not seeing any additional notes to indicate that that's only for capital ships.

When you see something like this in a ship design, it usually means the person didn't read/understand the RAW.

 

[jwpacker]

That says to me that there is no prohibition on having more than one Particle Beam per turret, at least on capital ships, and I'm not seeing any additional notes to indicate that that's only for capital ships.

When you see something like this in a ship design, it usually means the person didn't read/understand the RAW.

Oh man. If I have to start disregarding the examples, I'm going to have the devil's own time mastering these rules.

As another option for the whole particle beams at TL8, needing triple turrets, they also say that things become available at least one tech level early, in prototype form, for greater cost and often greater weight.

 

[DFW]

Oh man. If I have to start disregarding the examples, I'm going to have the devil's own time mastering these rules.

Actually, if you try and use ship examples in the books to ferret out rules, you'll go wrong as often as right. The examples all too often don't follow ship design rules. The one cited is a good example of this

 

[apoc527]

Actually, those ship designs in HG are pre-errata. If you download the errata for HG, all the costs are fixed to indicate only 1 particle beam per triple turret. Other older books with no errata (like Traders & Gunboats) are less consistent, but you can be sure that if they mount more than 1 particle beam in a turret, they simply need to be updated.

 

[zozotroll]

Before I got the errata, I mounted a couple of triple PB turrests on a ship. Makes it a real beast.Makes two PB turrets better han a railgun bay, for example. And means no reason to use PB barbettes. After we backed it down, I am not quite the combat dominate force I once was.

Owen

 

[locarno24]

The problem is that while Particle Beams are listed as TL8 a triple turret is listed as TL9. So how does one fit a ship with a Particle Beam at TL8?

We've always played it that you just don't. At TL8 only bay mounts and barbettes exist - the turret version comes in at TL9.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Joy and fun.

Why are lasers now higher tech than P-Beams, why do beams do less damage, why are pulses less acurate when they cover a wider area which should in theory make the chance of a hit higher.

All questions that float around.

P-beams. If you want them in turrets at tech 8 put them in turrets at tech 8, it is a bigger turret to account for the larger size and higher power demands of the single P-Beam so costs a bit more.

Still the whole idea of single/double/triple turrets being odd tech levels is likewise strange. Its not like we haven't been building naval ships with double/triple/quad turrets for years. Is it so much harder to put three lasers or missile launchers in a turret than two. I can see the price increase, larger turret, larger turret mounting, more power/ammo feeds etc. But why tech levles?

 

[DFW]

why are pulses less acurate when they cover a wider area which should in theory make the chance of a hit higher.

A pulse (within the same amount of time) covers less than a continuous beam. Imagine a water hose. One you squeeze 3 quick, short bursts over 10 seconds; the other, a continuous stream over 10 seconds. You'll hit someone with the stream easier.

 

[atpollard]

At TL 6, a civilization can build a normal sized Missile Rack. There are no Starship Turrets available, so Fixed Mounting the Missile Rack to a Hardpoint is the only option available.

At TL 7, a civilization can build a normal sized Beam Laser, Pulse Laser and Sandcaster (plus the TL 6 Missile Rack). The civilization also gains the ability to mount one weapon per turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 7 Single Turret). Since Single Turrets are the only ones available, only one normal sized weapon (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) can be mounted or swapped interchangeably in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret.

At TL 8, a civilization gains the ability to mount two normal sized weapons (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) in a larger turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 8 Double Turret). This does not simply represent the ability to build a larger turret, but includes more advanced fire control to allow two weapons to target the same point and converge fire or allow two weapons to target different objects and coordinate fire to allow each weapon to hit its target with no loss of accuracy. Since both Single Turrets and Double Turrets are available, one normal sized weapon can be mounted in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret or two normal sized weapons can be mounted in the two normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Double Turret.

At TL 9, a civilization gains the ability to mount three normal sized weapons (a Missile Rack, Beam Laser, Pulse Laser or Sandcaster) in a still larger turret to a starship hardpoint (the TL 9 Triple Turret). This does not simply represent the ability to build a larger turret, but includes more advanced fire control to allow three weapons to target the same point and converge fire or allow each weapon to target different objects and coordinate fire to allow all weapons to hit their target with no loss of accuracy. Since the Single Turret, Double Turret and Triple Turret are available, one normal sized weapon can be mounted in the single normal sized weapon bracket found inside a normal Single Turret or two normal sized weapons can be mounted in the two normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Double Turret or three normal sized weapons can be mounted in the three normal sized weapon brackets found inside a normal Triple Turret.

Now for the Special Case.
At TL 8, some weapon scientist with serious inadequacy issues builds “The Mother Of All Weapons” – a Particle Accelerator. One small problem, however, is that the PA is as large as THREE normal sized weapons. Fortunately, we are in luck, because the equipment needed to mount a weapon in a turret and aim it at a single target was perfected back at TL 7. That said, the PA will not fit in a normal sized weapon bracket, so we need to build a super-sized bracket and a super-sized fire control for our super-sized weapon (the TL 8 turret-mounted Particle Accelerator). All of this super-sized equipment means that a Particle Accelerator Giant Single Turret is as large as a TL 9 Triple Turret for normal sized weapons. As a Single Turret, the PA Turret could be built at TL 7 (although the weapon could not), and because of its size, the Giant PA Single Turret costs as much as a Triple Turret for normal weapons.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Hey guys look at this huge new energy weapon I invented, I call it a p-beam. Lets put it on a turret.

Sorry mate, too big for our turrets.

Well can you not make a bigger turret, how hard is that.

Come back in a hundred years or so mate, we need to advance a whole tech level in order to add that extra metre to the turret ring.

Who are these people anyway, the vilani :lol:

At tech 6/7 the Solomani were building battleships with multi ton cannon with bore sizes of 12"+ and putting them in turrets as big as small ships with three whole guns next to each other.

However as you say in your special case, there is no reason why turet mounted P-Beams would not be available at tech 8, you just pay for the bigger turret.

 

[locarno24]

Yes, well, you could ask that with the whole single/double/triple thing regardless. Why, you might ask, if I am a dedicated Star Wars nerd could I not have a quad pulse laser turret (possibly one mounted above and one below a light freighter...)

 

[DFW]

Yes, well, you could ask that with the whole single/double/triple thing regardless. Why, you might ask, if I am a dedicated Star Wars nerd could I not have a quad pulse laser turret (possibly one mounted above and one below a light freighter...)

I'd let you as they aren't effective at greater than ~200 meters. :lol:

 

[locarno24]

Well natually. They fire a special form of light that you can see moving.

It's probably because of quantum.