P&P Playtest Pack v 1.1

[stepan.razin]

Had a few playtest games yesterday using the new Rules. The big one was a 5 Point Battle, Crusade vs Narn.


General impressions:
1. FAP makes Swarms a little worse. Unfortunately the poor Drazi can only play a swarm, and since half of the people at this store own Drazi fleets, this by itself is not enough.

2. G'Varn change is ok, it still kicked ass.

3. Chronos variants could use a little changing... Nukes make them too good. P/S missiles make them awkward. Maybe they should be more like an Olympus, loose 1 interceptor, have its missiles F, and cut down the range on a turret gun.

Everybody yesterday pretty much agreed that these 2 rules probably need to change:

1. CBD at 4+ is too much for the Narn. Way too powerful. If CBD had some sort of real opportunity cost to it, could be doable. Being limited to fire only one weapon for a ship that will realistically only fire one weapon anyways doesn't qualify.

Basically it seems that CBD favors ships that dont have decent secondaries, aka smaller ships. Yet another reason to take those over larger ships. We are considering to implement a rule that someone suggested on this board that CDB cuts all AD in half.

2. Earth Nukes are a little over the top, SAP, TD. If Sagitarius can use these things, the galaxy is doomed. We all felt that having Nukes at AP, TD and limiting them to big ships only (Apollo, Marathon, Warlock), would be a little better.

 

[eldiablito]

2. Earth Nukes are a little over the top, SAP, TD. If Sagitarius can use these things, the galaxy is doomed. We all felt that having Nukes at AP, TD and limiting them to big ships only (Apollo, Marathon, Warlock), would be a little better.

Well, I'd also like the Hyperion to have access to it as well because of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

 

[captainsmirk]

2. Earth Nukes are a little over the top, SAP, TD. If Sagitarius can use these things, the galaxy is doomed. We all felt that having Nukes at AP, TD and limiting them to big ships only (Apollo, Marathon, Warlock), would be a little better.

Well, I'd also like the Hyperion to have access to it as well because of the fluff, but that's just my opinion.

Unfortunately the one Hyperion that we know was carrying some wasn't a missile cruiser...


Nick

 

[wkehrman]

If this is not a naval combat game set in space, what is it?

An excuse to get together and drink beer? ;-)

Cheers, Gary

OK, but only in the Recrimination Phase.

 

[dag'karlove]

Now that you finished padding yourself on the back, and reaffirming your own greatness, please recall that most people here have an understanding that this game has to maintain a balance between fleets.

While i applaud your english skills comrade razin, the expression is patting yourself on the back not padding. As for the understanding of the game and balance, for those of us that have been playing this since first edition, boresighting has been in the game since the beginning. It was offset by more dice on the main weapon. Yes it was a bit more difficult to target but when you did it made it count. A quick search will reveal several threads, the gist of which is that Boresight is too ineffective particularly for boresight dependent fleets and. that its too difficult to use. this is why this proposed SA has been devised. simply ecause people find it hard to play the fleet not because it unbalanced. Have a great day

The rules for Beams and boresights could have been painted on the cave walls for all I care, I will take a well balanced game over a game that fits some lame rationalization.

I will just choose to disagree with your assesment that boresight fleets like the Drazi are merely hard to play and that a great tactician( read - rolls lots of 6s) can easily overcome.

Razin was from Ukraine... Google it. By the way, do you really think I live in Russia/Ukraine? And all the neat trivia about history and Russian navy aside, you do realize that his game is played with dice.

Do tell me if you spot any more spelling errors.. please

Well Tovarisch my laundry list is as follows (and dont worry youre not the only target):

1. Its wrong grammar not spelling. You have the context and the word wrong. Nice cover up though.
2. I roll an inordinate amount of 1's and 2's ask anyone i game with the dice gods regularly laugh at me.
3. Just because i called you comrade you assume that i mean Russia. Do not forget that the Ukraine was also a communist/socialist nation for a long time and used that form of address as well as the russians. My GoogleFu and my knowledge of the Balkans Crimea etc etc is pretty good. I was unaware thatyou name was after that of a Pirate who cruised teh volga and other ares and im still unfamiliar with teh game you speak of in your earlier post.
4. As to where youre from I could honestly care less, unless its down the street from me in which case i would love to meet you and discuss this face to face as i hate to type.
5. As for a Lame Rationalization, try the real world. Thats what these games emulate. unfortunately in the real world not everything is balanced. Are the Russians and the Georgians balanced? Not even close. On the show are the Minbari and the Drazi equal in capabilities and strengths? Not any where close. "But its a game, But its a game" everyone screams as this is the perfectly acceptable answer for that and that ends all debate. Im sorry it doesnt. we play the game because we like the B5 universe. Im not sure many of you would disagree on that.
hell I like my game to be as close to the universe as possible. This Balance that everyone cries for doesnt exist in the cannon universe. the fleets were orignally designed that way and the game played great. now to get back to the original point here, this is a wargame, is it not? well a wargame is defined as: war game
Function: noun
1 : a simulated battle or campaign to test military concepts and usually conducted in conferences by officers acting as the opposing staffs
2 : a two-sided umpired training maneuver with actual elements of the armed forces participating

So lets Look at simulated. The root word is simulate Inflected Form(s): sim·u·lat·ed; sim·u·lat·ing
Etymology: Latin simulatus, past participle of simulare to copy, represent
: to follow as a pattern, model, or example
2 : to be or appear like : resemble
3 : to produce a copy of : reproduce

Now what does all of this say. Since this wargame is supposed to simulate the babylon 5 universe, one could make the logical assumption that it was designed to be as close to the series as possible while being somewhat balanced for the game even though wargames are just simulations.

For ripple:
I never said you were a poor admiral. You keep insinuating that I am calling you specifically a poor admiral. I am not as a matter of fact i said 95% of us get it leaving only 5 % (generally newbies) in that "I just dont understand Borseight mode." And as for your battle simulators, I do that everyday for a living. I wargame for the US Navy professionally. I understand all the mechanics behind it. The problem is, and yes im not going to play nice here, is that you dont like something because you invested some money in a fleet found it had a hard rule to play and then said we should change this because you cant employ it correctly. I never ever have a problem when Im emineless with my narn or missileless with my EA and Still manage to Hammer away with boresight weapons on lesser numbers or greater numbers of fleet ships. Its all about manuvering your equipment to be in the right place at the right time using fiegnts etc etc and thinking 3 moves ahead. if you arent, your opponent most definitely should be and thats probably why hes beating you with your boresight ships.

Have a nice day

 

[CZuschlag]

Actually, you kinda did, and your presumption of knowledge of Ripple's fleet(s) --- yes, plural --- proves it. He is far from all boresight. There's Abbai, a big Brakiri contingent, a substantial Vorlon fleet, in addition to Narn, Drazi, and a budding Psicorps-EA fleet.

He is FAR from without fleet options!

We are of the opinion that the Chicago area has a number of skilled players. Local folks have been winners of the last 2 GenCon "championships", and have won a 17-person local tournament (2006) that was at the time the largest tournament held in the United States (Chicago V). [I think that record has since been broken stateside, but I forget where]. Our two entrants to the last Vassal tournament -- our first online --finished third (Me/Drakh) and second (Davesaint/pak'ma'ra) to Romu; I even got a solid win out of Triggy that was pretty luck-neutral. [I do take pride in that one.] Chicago was resposible for highlighting the Tournament Saggitarius and Shadow Hunter for revision by example. We've got a good cadre of players; very solid.

Ripple is an above-average player locally, getting (if I remember right) a second, a third, and a 50% finish in the Chicago IV, Chicago III, and Chicago V tournaments.

I see you've been here for less than a year.

I'll ask the standard questions that we always ask when someone is experiencing something massively different than we do:

-- What scenarios are you playing?
-- What is your table size (it should be 4'x6')?
-- Are you remembering to roll for random terrain as specified in the rules?
-- Are you rolling your scenario size randomly, staying at 5 Raid, or doing something .... unique?

To your point about the boresight complaints, I will point out the findings of the book "The Wisdom of Crowds", by Surowiecki. It sums up (backed by some university-level research); "Large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant -- better at solving problems, fostering innovation, coming to wise decisions, and even predicting the future." Its why establishments like democracy, the stock markets, juries, bookies (legal for you gents over the pond), and Google are so accurate so often.

This community is also such a Crowd. Our collective wisdom is powerful, and I appreciate that you are an element in it. But, you are just one element, and for the Wisdom of Crowds to take place, you need the sum of all the voices, not some subset or fewer.

And this Crowd seems to want a balanced game, not merely a simulation. That's what I'm reading from all these threads here. I have contriuted to this vote and point to their Wisdom; I recommend you do the same.

 

[l33tpenguin]

"Large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant -- better at solving problems, fostering innovation, coming to wise decisions, and even predicting the future."

With the singular exception of Nikola Tesla, the greatest man in the history of the world

 

[David Anla Shok']

15. Also added New Ships and Admirals chapters./quote]

For those more familiar with the canon, are there Admirals out there for other races besides the current ones (G'Sten, Jha'Dur, Delenn and the EA)? A Drazi and a Brakiri show up in Season 5 (can't remember their names, but the Drazi bombed Centauri Prime along with the Narn). It would seem that only the Pak'ma'ra would not need an "admiral" as such though certainly they had commanders who gained greater success than others on certain runs.

Would Bester work as a Psi corps "Admiral"?

We never saw Bester command anything other than fighters in space. I wouldn't put it past him though at the very least he should be able to run fighter squadrons.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Fill the holes... you know... like a decent Skirmish choice for the ISA!

Oh you have a skirmish choice - how nice - unlike the Shadows :wink:

Admirals for all fleets - or something similar -cool

Psi Corps - Bester,
Shadows: Anna and/or Morden,
Vorlons: Kosh
ISA : Lyta

The other prob need making up - but thats not difficult

however it would be nice to make them so people would actually field them.........

Not all characters must be assumed to have command abilities, as most of these do not. I suspect that most fleets will just have to make do with generic, or "created" admirals.

 

[dag'karlove]

Actually, you kinda did, and your presumption of knowledge of Ripple's fleet(s) --- yes, plural --- proves it. He is far from all boresight. There's Abbai, a big Brakiri contingent, a substantial Vorlon fleet, in addition to Narn, Drazi, and a budding Psicorps-EA fleet.

He is FAR from without fleet options!

We are of the opinion that the Chicago area has a number of skilled players. Local folks have been winners of the last 2 GenCon "championships", and have won a 17-person local tournament (2006) that was at the time the largest tournament held in the United States (Chicago V). [I think that record has since been broken stateside, but I forget where]. Our two entrants to the last Vassal tournament -- our first online --finished third (Me/Drakh) and second (Davesaint/pak'ma'ra) to Romu; I even got a solid win out of Triggy that was pretty luck-neutral. [I do take pride in that one.] Chicago was resposible for highlighting the Tournament Saggitarius and Shadow Hunter for revision by example. We've got a good cadre of players; very solid.

Ripple is an above-average player locally, getting (if I remember right) a second, a third, and a 50% finish in the Chicago IV, Chicago III, and Chicago V tournaments.

I see you've been here for less than a year.

I'll ask the standard questions that we always ask when someone is experiencing something massively different than we do:

-- What scenarios are you playing?
-- What is your table size (it should be 4'x6')?
-- Are you remembering to roll for random terrain as specified in the rules?
-- Are you rolling your scenario size randomly, staying at 5 Raid, or doing something .... unique?

To your point about the boresight complaints, I will point out the findings of the book "The Wisdom of Crowds", by Surowiecki. It sums up (backed by some university-level research); "Large groups of people are smarter than an elite few, no matter how brilliant -- better at solving problems, fostering innovation, coming to wise decisions, and even predicting the future." Its why establishments like democracy, the stock markets, juries, bookies (legal for you gents over the pond), and Google are so accurate so often.

This community is also such a Crowd. Our collective wisdom is powerful, and I appreciate that you are an element in it. But, you are just one element, and for the Wisdom of Crowds to take place, you need the sum of all the voices, not some subset or fewer.

And this Crowd seems to want a balanced game, not merely a simulation. That's what I'm reading from all these threads here. I have contriuted to this vote and point to their Wisdom; I recommend you do the same.

Well CZ Youre response is well thought out and commendable. I do however find a hole in your logic. You say that minds of the many are better than the minds of the elite few no matter how smart they are. Thats a cool philosophy with the exception that you know what the other thing people call a group of people is , A MOB.
Just because ive only been on the boards for a bit over a year doesnt mean i havent been playing this game for much longer. I only recently started posting on internet boards in the last year. As for ripples fleets, im glad he has a varitable cornucopia of fleets to choose from. I do also. as for ripples skill at the game, I guess ill have to take your word for it. As for my own accolades and our own gamer group we have about 14 active players between the denver and Colorado springs gamers. Unfortunately alot of us are militry or work for teh govt in some fashion so getting people together to play tournaments are few and far between. As for what games we play and what level etc etc, we mix it up all the time. We hardly ever stay at the same priority level 5 raid is usually too small for us. However since we are gearing up for our local con in sep we will be playing tournament rules. By the way I finished first in our last tournament that we did have known as Ghengis Con back in february. We sometimes have terrain sometimes dont. Our denver area gamers are also good with about 175 years of gaming experience between the 6 folks who actually play B5 at out FLGS. yes our table is 4x6. As for Gencon Ill throw down the Gauntlet, at least for me, that not this year but next year I will be more than happy to come out and enter and play and well see where the ships may lie afterwards. As for my fleets I have minbari, psicorps, Narn, EA, Shadows, and ISA along with a few odds and ends type ships. I do however thank you for your response and i know most of ripples fleets as he has posted them here before i was not being presumptous. And any time any of you are out denver way please feel free to jump n to our FLGS. PM one of us Wkherman, silashand or david or myself and we'll welcome you with open arms and f you have centauri I wouldnt recommend bringing them.

 

[David Anla Shok']

. As for what games we play and what level etc etc, we mix it up all the time. We hardly ever stay at the same priority level 5 raid is usually too small for us. However since we are gearing up for our local con in sep we will be playing tournament rules. By the way I finished first in our last tournament that we did have known as Ghengis Con back in february. We sometimes have terrain sometimes dont. Our denver area gamers are also good with about 175 years of gaming experience between the 6 folks who actually play B5 at out FLGS. yes our table is 4x6. As for Gencon Ill throw down the Gauntlet, at least for me, that not this year but next year I will be more than happy to come out and enter and play and well see where the ships may lie afterwards. As for my fleets I have minbari, psicorps, Narn, EA, Shadows, and ISA along with a few odds and ends type ships. I do however thank you for your response and i know most of ripples fleets as he has posted them here before i was not being presumptous. And any time any of you are out denver way please feel free to jump n to our FLGS. PM one of us Wkherman, silashand or david or myself and we'll welcome you with open arms and f you have centauri I wouldnt recommend bringing them. [/quote]

And so begins the smack talking.... Beer and fresh horses for my men!

 

[CZuschlag]

Any Centauri I bring will have Keepers safely attached, don't worry.

It's best to keep your dogs on leashes.

.... oh, yeah. Now, I'm going to get it.

 

[dag'karlove]

Any Centauri I bring will have Keepers safely attached, don't worry.

It's best to keep your dogs on leashes.

.... oh, yeah. Now, I'm going to get it.

I know David Anla Shok is a bit scruffy but calling him a dog? Thats a bit unnessacary(SP). :lol:

 

[David Anla Shok']

Any Centauri I bring will have Keepers safely attached, don't worry.

It's best to keep your dogs on leashes.

.... oh, yeah. Now, I'm going to get it.

Oh that's just more Dag Kar lovin.... he's due for a smack down with his Narn soon.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Any Centauri I bring will have Keepers safely attached, don't worry.

It's best to keep your dogs on leashes.

.... oh, yeah. Now, I'm going to get it.

I know David Anla Shok is a bit scruffy but calling him a dog? Thats a bit unnessacary(SP). :lol:

Who are you calling "scruffy"? Just because you can't grow a beard...

 

[dag'karlove]

Cant and not allowed to are 2 different things. I can grow a beard. Naval regualtions say i am not allowed to keep one.

 

[wkehrman]

I've not read this book, though the Wikipedia article (flimsy evidence I'll grant) does acknowledge that this group wisdom does occasionally break down under certain circumstances. In either case, the sort of logic being used here is a good excuse for the tyranny of the majority. The political systems of most "democratic" states are often not as democratic as one might think. Even in an ideal situation (leaving aside special interest groups and the like) most "democratic" states run the vast majority of their decisions through filters of relatively small groups of (hopefully) wiser people. For example, the vast majority of our laws (US population 300 million) go through 535 people, who may be vetoed by one person. Even if the law is passed despite the veto, there is a panel of nine people who can declare it unconstitutional. Hardly collective wisdom.

As for the majority you seem to think is there, I'd like to point out that I only see a few complaining about the existing rule, the majority seems rather silent, or more inclined to leave it alone. Those in opposition are certainly vocal about it and have achieved high post counts (which seems in and of itself to imply superiority), but do they constitute the "collective" as in everyone, or the "collective" as in "resistance is futile, you will be assimilated?" I propose that the "collective" Mr. Surowieki is speaking about have NOT all entered their opinion on this.

(Note that even the example of a crowd guessing the weight of an Ox by averaging responses is flawed as the polled group would likely have a disproportionate number of experts in such matters)

You suggest that the Chicagoland group is talented. Good. This does not diminish the talents of other groups nor does this make you spokespersons for everyone. Your call to examine "Wisdom of the Crowds" falls apart on this very point. Do you guys have sufficient diversity of process and philosophy? Does claiming you guys are right and the rest are wrong reflect a compartmentalization of experience? Are there members of your group who have either "taken on faith" what others have said to be true?

This is not so cut and dry as you would like it to be and the sorts of posts coming out of the Chicago Metropolitan Statistical Area are reflective of little more than elitism.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Cant and not allowed to are 2 different things. I can grow a beard. Naval regualtions say i am not allowed to keep one.

I've seen your hair. You'll be lucky to have any in ten years.. look very Narnish ;>

 

[B5freak]

So, has anybody playtested the new Vorlon SA?

If the Crew Quality check is successful, this ship will double the Damage repaired by its Self-Repair trait in the End Phase. However, while it regenerates, it cannot make any attacks, and will be Adrift.

I'm traveling for business right now so can't test it myself, but this just looks like a worthless SA. In exchange for getting a whole '2' damage points back, my Vorlon transport can do nothing for one whole turn and I don't even get the damage back until the End Phase? The concept seems nice, but unlike the new Abbai SA, the implementation seems lacking.

If you want to give the Vorlons something really useful, give them a better Anti-Fighter defense. Maybe some kind of A-F pulse that the ship could generate to put AD against all fighters within a certain radius.

 

[Ripple]

to Dag'Kar -

Since you said you weren't going to be nice, let's be honest. You've found a set of rules that let you play a certain way and you don't want anyone changing them on you, no matter how fair or balanced the new rule might be. Am I close, did I win?

You, as usual, skipped over all my points about the situations boresight and initiative cause and basically said I don't like it because its hard and I spent money on it. You really need to spend some quality time with me to understand my views on money if you think the amount I spent has much impact on me in this case.

And as for hard... I actually usually prefer it, but I like to picture myself on the deck and try to figure out what I would be seeing that creates these odd situations. When my imagination fails me, I ask someone to hlep me out... when theirs fails them, I start to say 'why do it this way?'

Once I'm at that point I start to ask is this balanced... if it is, then I say while not ideal, maybe the best we can do for now. If it's not, then I come here and bitch and whine. But it has to be unfluffy, unfun and unbalanced usually for me to pull it out here... at least to my eyes and at least somewhat in the eyes of the folks around me.

- Chris did leave out my vree, pak and league specials by the way... just to be complete, though the warglobes have yet to make it to battle. -

As for the insults... when you say someone wants to change something because its hard, that's insulting. If we were going to have a foot race and I got a ten meter head start in our 100 meter race you'd be first at the judges stand asking why, not saying well its hard, but I can do it. Typical drazi fleet of ten usually skirmish and up.. one ship can't shoot at all due to a (prior to the current changes) half a patrol point ship in the corner farthest from my fleet.

As to how you folks play... larger games played on the 6x4 boards are much easier on bore sighted ships locally, as target density rises. At our typical 5 raid we find it hard to hunt sinks hiding in corners due to it being a couple of turns away and likely as fast and maneuverable as you are, not impossible... just often the battle is over by the time you get a good shot on it.

Ripple