l33tpenguin
Mongoose
I STILL think my 'Bring Weapons to Bear' opposed CQ to save a turn till your target has moved SA was better 
Our gaming groups observations (Long)
- Thread starter Guchi
- Start date
katadder said:l33tpenguin said:I STILL think my 'Bring Weapons to Bear' opposed CQ to save a turn till your target has moved SA was better
and I would never back because it brings too much flexibility allowing you to see where your opponent has gone.
I don't see why since you still have to actually get off the SA which also prohibits you from doing anything else. If your opponent is crafty enough he may be able to move out of arc anyway causing you to waste both the SA *and* your opportunity to boresight. Personally I hate the current TTT special action. Doesn't seem appropriate for a weapon that probably runs the length of your ship. JMO though.
Cheers, Gary
CZuschlag
Mongoose
I think he's worrying about non-boresight ships using the SA. The argument goes something like this:
-- What makes it special that an Omega can do this, but a Targrath can't.
---- OK, so we allow Targraths to do it.
-- Isn't the whole idea of the downside of the Targrath that you can avoid it's F arc if it's already moved?
---- Oh. Um. Um.
Targrath used as example (but a good one). Others could be the whole Vorlon fleet, the Vorchan and buddies, Drakh Raiders, Avioki, Whitestar, Shadow Stalker and Scout.
-- What makes it special that an Omega can do this, but a Targrath can't.
---- OK, so we allow Targraths to do it.
-- Isn't the whole idea of the downside of the Targrath that you can avoid it's F arc if it's already moved?
---- Oh. Um. Um.
Targrath used as example (but a good one). Others could be the whole Vorlon fleet, the Vorchan and buddies, Drakh Raiders, Avioki, Whitestar, Shadow Stalker and Scout.
true but why wouldnt it be allowed for other ships? as czuschlag says theres no reason that order couldnt be used by any other ship as it has nothing to do with weapons but to do with moving. and imagine those nasty vorlons with 90 degree turns doing it. cant outmanouvre them.
Yes but how are you out maneuvering them now?
Our current system has huge holes in it, ships literally teleport around the table with no ability to react to each other. Why, because he has more ships, there for some of his get to teleport into locations I could never have dreamed of... like right in front of me, where he walked slowly to...
One of the things in the game that is so hard to get across to folks is that you can't do single ship comparisons.
Three Omegas vs three Tinashi... pretty fair fight... one Omega vs one Tinashi... Omegas is dead because of bore sight.
One Targrath vs one whitestar... dead Targrath... as whitestar will always be able to disengage if it can't avoid arc.
'Bring...' is no more flexible that the other systems... it just prevents sinking out to make a ship unattackable. It says 'I'm trying to keep ship x in arc', and will follow wherever it goes to the best of my ability. There is no flexibility there.
If it runs to the right, you go right.. if he has other ships he can out maneuver you like he would in the real world... by going left and turning back in on your flank. Not out maneuver you the ACtA way, stand right in front and laugh cause you moved second you can stand just '_' far outside his arc and shot the crap out of him.
The issue here is whether you have to guess where another ship is going to be that you want to shoot at... (and damn precisely for bore sight) or whether you can 'lead the target' you actually want to shoot. In the real world you would lead the target... that is what he's trying to simulate. TTT simulates something else... some kind of snap shot at a ship that was often never actually in arc.
More often than not it only matters with the first ship to move if your not bore sighted or playing hide in the corner sink games (maybe with cripples that should be fleeing for their lives)...
Biggest turn off in the game is stupid sink games (though stealth has come close, you can play without it...)
Ripple
Our current system has huge holes in it, ships literally teleport around the table with no ability to react to each other. Why, because he has more ships, there for some of his get to teleport into locations I could never have dreamed of... like right in front of me, where he walked slowly to...
One of the things in the game that is so hard to get across to folks is that you can't do single ship comparisons.
Three Omegas vs three Tinashi... pretty fair fight... one Omega vs one Tinashi... Omegas is dead because of bore sight.
One Targrath vs one whitestar... dead Targrath... as whitestar will always be able to disengage if it can't avoid arc.
'Bring...' is no more flexible that the other systems... it just prevents sinking out to make a ship unattackable. It says 'I'm trying to keep ship x in arc', and will follow wherever it goes to the best of my ability. There is no flexibility there.
If it runs to the right, you go right.. if he has other ships he can out maneuver you like he would in the real world... by going left and turning back in on your flank. Not out maneuver you the ACtA way, stand right in front and laugh cause you moved second you can stand just '_' far outside his arc and shot the crap out of him.
The issue here is whether you have to guess where another ship is going to be that you want to shoot at... (and damn precisely for bore sight) or whether you can 'lead the target' you actually want to shoot. In the real world you would lead the target... that is what he's trying to simulate. TTT simulates something else... some kind of snap shot at a ship that was often never actually in arc.
More often than not it only matters with the first ship to move if your not bore sighted or playing hide in the corner sink games (maybe with cripples that should be fleeing for their lives)...
Biggest turn off in the game is stupid sink games (though stealth has come close, you can play without it...)
Ripple
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
katadder said:l33tpenguin said:I STILL think my 'Bring Weapons to Bear' opposed CQ to save a turn till your target has moved SA was better
and I would never back because it brings too much flexibility allowing you to see where your opponent has gone.
I'm confused about the problem with that? In real time, you can follow the movement of a target. They don't just suddenly jump to their destination after you have turned. Thats the idea that Bring to Bear is supposed to represent.
Lets say your a sniper with a rifle, do you aim where you think your target will be and wait for him to get there? No, you train your rifle on him and follow his movements till you can take your shot.
silashand said:
The SA can work for you or against you. Your opponent knows the target, just as if one ship was actively targetting another. We even see this in the show. Babylon 5 KNEW the Centauri battle cruiser was targetting it. The target can try to leverage this to their advantage, manuvering to get the targetting ship pointed in a direction that is to their advantage. The target can also manuver to stay out of the arc and range. You know someone is targetting you, you MOVE!
CZuschlag said:
And I believe it can be used for more than just boresight as well. Why not? It almost totally negates init sinks. Sure, it could be levereaged better for full arcs, but again, it can be exploited by the target to turn the firing ship. It also requires using up their SA. They can't CBD or come about or whatever else that is an option.
l33tpenguin said:
and if he dashes back the other direction he can throw off your shot which under your idea of the rule cant happen as you follow it all the way through so no twists and turns.
think of it like this - not magically teleporting but jinking left and right, eventually the omega captain has to make a decision decides with his unmanouvrable ship to go right so the WS he was tracking goes left and theres nothing that omega captain can do about it.
its like trying to track a speed boat with an oil tanker, have to make a decision where you think hes going and trust your gut as you certainly cannot track it back and foreward
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
katadder said:
You just validated the SA! Yes, you are pitting the abilities of the crews of two different ships against one another in who can out do the other. If the targeting ship succeeds the crew has managed to keep their guns trained, following the target through its maneuvers. If the target succeeds, its maneuvering has throwing the targeting ship off. Thus the opposed CQ. It represents EXACTLY that.
If the sniper wins the CQ roll, he kept his weapon trained, even though the runner dashed and dodged. If the runner wins, it means his dodging saved his life and fowled the snipers shot.
no i am saying you cant manage manouvres that quick and stay on target. a warship could not keep a spped boat in a straight line and at some point the commander would have to make a decision.
they dont though in RL as they send ridged raiders after them instead as he knows he cannot track something that fast.
a sniper doesnt generally track people running backwards and forwards, he actually keeps himself in position and trys to take the shot when they are crossing that position as he will never get as good as shot trying to follow back and forth if he even gets one at all.
they dont though in RL as they send ridged raiders after them instead as he knows he cannot track something that fast.
a sniper doesnt generally track people running backwards and forwards, he actually keeps himself in position and trys to take the shot when they are crossing that position as he will never get as good as shot trying to follow back and forth if he even gets one at all.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
katadder said:
Any sniper worth his weight can track and take down a moving target, though that's a totally different discussion.
As for an Omega tracking a white star, sure you can, you have distance on your side. At 1,000 km, I only need to turn my ship a few degrees to follow a ship moving at 1km/s. Given that the White Star can't even close the gap between an Omega's max range to zero in one round, we know these ships are firing at extreme range.
And, how is it my Omega ends up pointing 90 degrees off from where the WS is because the WS did some jukes and dodges? I turn the wrong way, the white star is magically on the other side. There is no following here, there is no dodging. There is nothing resembling this, as a matter of fact. There is magical jumping around of ships with NO regard for reality.
The Omega CAN maneuver fast enough to keep the white star targeted at range. It does have a full 45 degree turn. Its not like it takes 2 hours to bring the ship about. As the range closes, the WS will gain the upper hand, because even with the Bring to Bear SA, the WS will be able to move 45 degrees off the Omegas center, making it impossible to target.
How do you get the most accurate bore sight ship in the whole universe? You buy up a dozen patrol level ships and out sink your opponent. This is total crap.
stepan.razin
Mongoose
l33tpenguin said:
Now, that depends on a target
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Regardless, it boils down to the skill of the shooter against the skill of the target. An opposed CQ check
mrambassador1
Mongoose
I think to get rid of the initiative sink problem we should take a leaf from star fleet battles and divide the turn into 32 movement impulses. Each impulse you move your ship 1/32 of its speed and may turn it 1/32 of its turn rate. You move a ship then I move etc and then each ship gets an opportunity to fire before the next impulse. Even if you out sink me I'll be facing in the wrong direction by at most a few degrees. We could use rules for boresight that it may fire during an impulse if it was boresighting the target at any time during the implulse so even if you move first if you boresighted the target you still get to fire at it even if then moves out of boresight, and it would still only have moved about 1/2 an inch in its impulse even for a whitestar, and most ships more like 1/4 inch.
It would be a much more realistic system and would solve boresight issues and stop fast ships "teleporting" behind you, you could shoot at them in the impulses as they approached your ship. Sure it might increase play time a bit, but only a couple of hours per turn, you should still be able to finish a game over the course of a weekend. say 16 hours of play time, which I think is quite reasonable. :twisted: :roll:
It would be a much more realistic system and would solve boresight issues and stop fast ships "teleporting" behind you, you could shoot at them in the impulses as they approached your ship. Sure it might increase play time a bit, but only a couple of hours per turn, you should still be able to finish a game over the course of a weekend. say 16 hours of play time, which I think is quite reasonable. :twisted: :roll:
mrambassador1
Mongoose
Seriously though, I don't think initiative sinks are a problem. Who are these freaks taking 5 Omegas to battles anyway. You're not supposed to take 5 big ships, fleets work much better with a variety of ships, 1 or 2 omegas, a couple of hyperions, some olympuses and several hermes. I don't see initiative sinks as a problem,I LIKE the initiative system, I LIKE how they encourage you to take smaller support ships to help the big ones and not just, my 5 heavy cruisers against your 5 heavy cruisers. I LIKE the mix of different ships that work well together rather than just lots of your favourite one. I LIKE Boresight too, it adds a great deal of flavour and character to EA and Narn fleets, why stop at forward arc, why not just give them Turreted beams, that would "fix" the "problems" too. Leave my boresight alone. No thats not a euphemism for something else.
stepan.razin
Mongoose
l33tpenguin said:
Sure... But a man got to know his limitations.
l33tpenguin
Mongoose
Initiative sinking IS a problem. I can have a mixed fleet of White Stars and Blue Stars and they suddenly become less manuverable than a G'Quan when the Narn player out numbers me. Its even worse when the player with the greater number of ships can keep enough hanging out behind terrain or at the edge of the boards so I can never get a good shot. Initiative is down right broken.
I agree with you that we should be bringing a good varied mix of ships to the board. I have no problems with that. But often times that 'good mix' is a couple hard hitters and a dozen patrol ships to ensure that their fleet always has the best shots.
I agree with you that we should be bringing a good varied mix of ships to the board. I have no problems with that. But often times that 'good mix' is a couple hard hitters and a dozen patrol ships to ensure that their fleet always has the best shots.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
You don't need to pick the one and only ship you want to shoot at, he might be able to protect (move last) one or two of his ships but you still get good shots at the first ships he moves. If he's hiding behind terrain or keeping half his fleet at the other end of the field, then send some of your ships there as well. If he moves ships on the left side first then hit em with the half of your force on the left, if he moves right first, then hit them with your ships on the right. You might not be able to get your favourite target but you will get something, maybe not the first or second ship you move, but the 3rd or 4th should be able to find something, and once you start whittling away his small ships he'll run out of initiative sinks and then you can take out his big guns.
